What Palm to pick with limited space

[PalmGuyPSL]

About a year ago I planted two Spindle Palms and removed two Queen Palms, they are 8 feet apart. I planted some Philippine Violets between them and they grew about 3ft tall and just parted in the middle and looks horrible. Now I’m thinking about bumping out the front off the planted area but I only have about 3 1/2ft to bump out the middle. From the center to the spindle trunks would be about 5ft. My three ideas are a Bottle Palm,  Cyphophoenix Alba, or Triangle Palm. What are some thoughts or shoulda go a different direction.

[iDesign]

Bottle Palm would look great there (since it's in the same family). Here's a quick & dirty mockup for you...

I'd also add just a *bit* more of that Florida color (crotons, ti's etc). Then you're golden, with nice "layering" + splashes of color.

I was going to do mockups of your other two options, but they didn't look nearly as nice to me with your Spindles. In my opinion bottle would work best of those three palm choices. Or you could do something really different (like a fan palm, clustering palm, etc).  That could look nice as well.

[SeanK]

Less is More.

I would get rid of the violets.

 

 

 

[PalmGuyPSL]

I like the bottle Palm but I try to get things that are not to common. Spindles are not very popular in landscaping where I live but bottle palms are in almost every other yard.  Stacey if you can give me some suggestions for fan palms and clustering palms to look at.  Not sure if a fan Palm would be good there, it would be in full sun. Also the area in front of them is a large lake and there is nothing to stop the wind coming straight across the lake during storms and hopefully not many hurricanes. Crotons and Thai plants are in the front yard trying to keep the back a little different. 

 

The violets are being removed.   Might put two Dombeya but unsure of that part.

[ruskinPalms]

Sabal minor or Serenoa repens are my suggestion. Some low growing fan palms might add some interest to your landscape.

[EPaul]

@PalmGuyPSL My 2 cents - I feel like a bottle palm is too similar to a spindle. The fronds of the dypsis decaryi palm would clash visually with the spindles' fronds.  The cyphophoenix alba is a nice palm but it may get burned by your warm 10A FL afternoon sun (maybe others with more experience with this palm can give better advice). I would choose a fan palm, including cocothrinax crinita, saribus rotundifolia (requires shade when real small),  thrinax radiata, latania lontaroides (if you're ok with something large),  zone push a pritchardia pacifica, or go simple and cheap with a livistona chinensis.  

[Merlyn]

For a "small" fan palm a Copernicia Macroglossa is a wild contrast.  Most of the Livistona species are good in full sun, the only ones I've had trouble with are L. Saribus...they like it swampy and part shade when smaller.  Saribus Rotundifolia and Robinsoniana have been a good grower for me, and fairly hardy into the upper 20s.  A 2' tall one in the front yard took basically no damage at 27F with frost.  A Robinsoniana took no damage at 24-25F with some frost canopy by a nearby Bismarck.  Livistona Muelleri is another small fan palm, as is Crysosophila Warscewiczii. 

In that kind of spot I would probably plant something like an Encephalartos Whitelockii or Laurentianus.  They grow tall 10-15' fronds but take decades to grow actual trunk.  If you like that sort of fountain-of-fronds look you could consider palms like Arenga Pinnata or Attalea Cohune.  They also don't take a lot of footprint space, but grow tight and vertical.

Another you could consider is Dypsis (now Chrysolidacarpus) Lanceolata, with big wide leaves and a fairly small overall diameter.  Dypsis Rosea might be an option too, so far one of mine at 3' tall is okay in about 75% full sun.  Other somewhat smaller clustering palms are Pinanga Coronata "Kuhlii", Dypsis Pembana and probably some others.

[aztropic]

Hemithrinax ekmaniana. Rare but obtainable in 25 gal size in FL. It is a small bushy palm that will still be small and compact 10 years from now.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[Silas_Sancona]

23 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Hemithrinax ekmaniana. Rare but obtainable in 25 gal size in FL. It is a small bushy palm that will still be small and compact 10 years from now.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

x2 for this. ...or any of the Coccothrinax, particularly any uncommon ones you can find.  Shoving a big palm ( or two ) in between those nice Spindles is overkill,  imo.

[iDesign]

Wow, you're getting some great advice (from some very respected Palmtalkers).

As a Californian I'm not a good source for advice as to which palms will do well in your area, but I made a few mock-ups for you based on the recommendations of others. Though bottle palms are rare & fun in my area, sounds like they're extremely common in your area. And I agree that doing something OTHER than a third pinnate palm in that spot would be ideal. Here are my quick & dirty mockups for your consideration...

Serenoa repens:

Cocothrinax crinita ("old man palm"):

Latania lontaroides (while still relatively young):

Encephalartos Whitelockii? (or similar):

Copernicia macroglossa (trio):

I didn't spend much time on these (and the scale might be off on a couple), but should at least give you a feel for a few options. I personally like all of these layouts more than your original picks, since they provide contrast in both height & leaf type.

At the moment, my personal favorite is the macroglossa since it's "weird"... but so are the spindles. Would give this area a "Dr. Seuss" sort of feel (which you could even enhance with other small "weird" plants). Lots of other nice suggestions though (including some I didn't mockup).

Hope that helps! 

[Merlyn]

43 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Hemithrinax ekmaniana:

 

 

Your Hemithrinax Ekmaniana looks an awful lot like an Encephalartos Whitelockii/Ituriensis/Equatorialis. 

[iDesign]

29 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Your Hemithrinax Ekmaniana looks an awful lot like an Encephalartos Whitelockii/Ituriensis/Equatorialis. 

Ooops!!! Is this better?
(happily I was able to edit the previous post in time)

Hemithrinax ekmaniana:

Note that scale might be way off... I've never seen this one where I live (but would love one). This plant, the "old men" & the macroglossa are indeed Dr. Seuss level "weird" - which I love. I think putting a short & "weird" fan palm (or several of them) would be a great look for this particular planter, but there are of course other options that would be nice as well.

[PalmGuyPSL]

I have an Old Man Palm in the front of the house and also a Copernicia Alba that’s about 10 feet tall counting trunk and top fronds.  In the back not to far from this area I have a double Miraguama Palm.  Would have to be something like these really don’t want common Florida thatch or Palmetto Palm. Only native Palm I wish I would have bought was a 6ft trunk Buccaneer Palm. They grow super slow but well worth it. Came across two  2 1/2ft Buccaneers this past Thursday way to pricey for that size $425.00.  One Palm I forgot to mention was possibly a Kentiopsis Oliviformis for that space.

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Merlyn. I was thinking about a Cycad like Encephalartos Whitelockii. That was something else that I was tossing around.  Wanted to see if anyone else would pick something like that. Would have to work on looking up the other items on your list. May like what I see but where to find them is the hard part.

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Merlynwhat about Dioon Spinulosim or Dioon Edule?

[PalmGuyPSL]

@iDesign The cluster of Old Man Palms would be nice but very expensive.  I will just keep the one I have in front of my home. These Hemithrinax ekmaniana are very weird. Never saw them before wouldn’t even know where to lol for them. Paint them yellow the will look like fuzzy minions. Just need a few small Madagascar Palms and some of the smaller Agaves with small spiked leaves, and some crown of thorns plants. 

[Billeb]

1 hour ago, PalmGuyPSL said:

@Merlynwhat about Dioon Spinulosim or Dioon Edule?

Neither one of those Dioon would get nearly as big as Enceph. Whitelockii or Laurentianus. Both those Encephalartos get massively erect fronds sometimes decades before any trunk is formed. The Dioons will be more short and full. I’m a huge proponent of Encephalartos, Dioons and Cycas & have many. They aren’t used enough in gardens. I Just got this Dioon Edule Var. Queretaro which is a blue form vs the typical light green. Pictures don’t show color very well at all. Removed a couple pups to sell later. As a reference, this particular Edule is nearly 20yrs old. 

I think Whitelockii or Laurentianus would be an awesome choice for that area. Good idea @Merlyn  

-dale

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Billeb
Spelling

[Looking Glass]

19 hours ago, iDesign said:

...
Serenoa repens:

Encephalartos Whitelockii? (or similar):

 

I was thinking of these two as nice understory choices.   I was really thinking the silver saws would be a great choice.  Allagopterra arenaria might work also.  

If you go with the silver, coonties underneath would be great for green texture, and/or colorful tropical plants in a mix.  

[Merlyn]

@PalmGuyPSL Dioon Spinulosum or Rzedowskii would be a good choice for that spot if you'd prefer low and around 6' wide initially.  I have 11 planted and 2 in pots.  They can tolerate full sun here in Floriduh but tend to be more of a lime green in lots of sun.  It would take 30+ years to get this big:

I found that at a local nursery with 2-3 feet of trunk, so you can guess it is about 10-12' total diameter.  When younger they are smaller diameter, like the center one from PT member ChuckG and two small ones from an Etsy seller EurekaFarmsLLC.  They had some that size for $50 but are sold out at the moment.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Would you be opposed to throwing another Spindle in line with the other two?  Landscaping generally looks best in threes, to most people.  Then some understory palms down low?  

[Merlyn]

@PalmGuyPSL and here is a sort-of-the-same-angle Encephalartos Whitelockii in the right side background with my biggest Spindle in the foreground.  The Whitelockii is about 6' tall and the Spindle is 10-12' tall.  As you can see the Spindle was badly burned with 27-28F with frost in January, and is still recovering.  The Whitelockii took basically no damage other than a bit of frostburn on a few leaflets.  Just ignore the wide variety of imported and native hardy perennials (weeds) in between! 

And this is my largest Whitelockii, about a 10-12" caudex and currently about 10' tall fronds.  I might end up moving the cardboards, before they get too big to be "easily" moved...

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Jesse PNWthe idea was to go with three palms but not a third Spindle. The thing that got lost here is I want to pull out the center three feet and have a rounded triangle and put the third plant whatever it might be on the new point that was made. I am leaning towards a Whitelockii it still not written in stone for the final plan. Still have to please the better half with the decision and she wants some Dombeya on the front side facing the lanai.  

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Merlynnow that I believe I made the choose to go with Whitelockii I can’t seem to source any over here.  I have a text out to a guy that did source some of my palms see if he has any where to get one.  He may even have one on his property. He has 9 acres of different types of trees and plants that he has found and planted either as juveniles or seeds and cuttings.  He has one problem, he likes to keep more than he likes to sell certain things.  Last time I was these he had a bunch of collectors pony tail palms and loads of different bromeliads and Thai plants.  We shall see what happens this week. I know of a place where I can get a Dioon but that won’t work because it spreads out but I will see if they can get a Whitelockii.  This place I bought about 80 percent of my palms which is what they are know for and grow many of them on site.   If not will have to find a plan B.

[Billeb]

1 hour ago, PalmGuyPSL said:

@Merlynnow that I believe I made the choose to go with Whitelockii I can’t seem to source any over here.  I have a text out to a guy that did source some of my palms see if he has any where to get one.  He may even have one on his property. He has 9 acres of different types of trees and plants that he has found and planted either as juveniles or seeds and cuttings.  He has one problem, he likes to keep more than he likes to sell certain things.  Last time I was these he had a bunch of collectors pony tail palms and loads of different bromeliads and Thai plants.  We shall see what happens this week. I know of a place where I can get a Dioon but that won’t work because it spreads out but I will see if they can get a Whitelockii.  This place I bought about 80 percent of my palms which is what they are know for and grow many of them on site.   If not will have to find a plan B.

We’ve got em on the left coast. No clue about Shipping something like that tho 

 

-dale

[Tracy]

12 hours ago, PalmGuyPSL said:

@Merlynnow that I believe I made the choose to go with Whitelockii I can’t seem to source any over here.  I have a text out to a guy that did source some of my palms see if he has any where to get one.  He may even have one on his property. He has 9 acres of different types of trees and plants that he has found and planted either as juveniles or seeds and cuttings.  He has one problem, he likes to keep more than he likes to sell certain things.  Last time I was these he had a bunch of collectors pony tail palms and loads of different bromeliads and Thai plants.  We shall see what happens this week. I know of a place where I can get a Dioon but that won’t work because it spreads out but I will see if they can get a Whitelockii.  This place I bought about 80 percent of my palms which is what they are know for and grow many of them on site.   If not will have to find a plan B.

I will offer an opinion against a large Encephalartos which some might find surprising given my affinity to cycads.  The reason is mainly your description of the location.   You mentioned this spot is exposed to strong wind.  These large Central African cycads will flush on irregular schedules, which will sometimes result in late Autumn and early winter flushes.  These flushes are slower to open,  leaving them vulnerable longer to storms.  The resulting flush will look trashed.  If you have a more wind protected spot it would be a much better location.

On a visual note, I prefer the look of something fuller and less tall.  Encephalartos whitlockii will have leaves 14 feet tall in a few years if you start with a 5" caudex.  While flushes are initially erect they will start to spread before you get another flush.  It will dwarf your palms which will get lost visually in short order.   A cycad that won't dwarf your Hyophorbes would be a much more appealing choice.  Some suggestions that might do well in your spot include Encephalartos natalensis, Encephalartos arenarius, Encephalartos turneri.  These can get large, but won't tower over and outpace your Spindles.

[Merlyn]

@PalmGuyPSL I'd buy one from here if you can't find one locally.  This is an awesome price for a 4 gallon tall.  I've done two orders from them and expect about $30-40 shipping costs, all very well packed.  http://www.livingcycads.com/whitelockii.html  Another good West coast spot is Jungle Music, but they are much more expensive at $175.  https://www.junglemusic.net/search/CycadPrices.aspx  Also you could check forum member IceBlueCycads here https://icebluecycads.com/shop  They don't list one but email him and ask if they've got any unlisted Whitelockii.  He frequently has inventory that isn't up on the website.

The only issue I've found with buying from out there is that they are typically acclimated to hot and dry.  So going to wet

As @Tracy mentioned, flushing can be irregular.  The Whitelockii in the Spindle photo was just finishing a flush, it probably started in mid-August.  Most of my Whitelockii flush in the May-July timeframe.  This was the second flush this year on that plant.  The bigger one in the second photo did a flush in May and might do another around October.  My Laurentianus are the problem childs, usually starting a flush in December that then gets horked up by a frost.

As a smaller alternative, my favorite midsize is Gratus.  They are also pretty quick growers and 2-3F more cold hardy.  They grow up to 6-10' fronds, where Whitelockii can get to 10-14'.  It depends on your size/shape preference, as Gratus tends to grow a little wider instead of taller.  This Gratus in the front left got burned at 25F with frost, so the new flush in May is a little bit smaller than normal.  I'm hoping for a fall flush.  On the upper right is a Whitelockii triple for a size/shape reference.

 

[Tracy]

58 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@PalmGuyPSL I'd buy one from here if you can't find one locally.  This is an awesome price for a 4 gallon tall.  I've done two orders from them and expect about $30-40 shipping costs, all very well packed.  http://www.livingcycads.com/whitelockii.html  Another good West coast spot is Jungle Music, but they are much more expensive at $175.  https://www.junglemusic.net/search/CycadPrices.aspx  Also you could check forum member IceBlueCycads here https://icebluecycads.com/shop  They don't list one but email him and ask if they've got any unlisted Whitelockii.  He frequently has inventory that isn't up on the website.

The only issue I've found with buying from out there is that they are typically acclimated to hot and dry.  So going to wet

As @Tracy mentioned, flushing can be irregular.  The Whitelockii in the Spindle photo was just finishing a flush, it probably started in mid-August.  Most of my Whitelockii flush in the May-July timeframe.  This was the second flush this year on that plant.  The bigger one in the second photo did a flush in May and might do another around October.  My Laurentianus are the problem childs, usually starting a flush in December that then gets horked up by a frost.

As a smaller alternative, my favorite midsize is Gratus.  They are also pretty quick growers and 2-3F more cold hardy.  They grow up to 6-10' fronds, where Whitelockii can get to 10-14'.  It depends on your size/shape preference, as Gratus tends to grow a little wider instead of taller.  This Gratus in the front left got burned at 25F with frost, so the new flush in May is a little bit smaller than normal.  I'm hoping for a fall flush.  On the upper right is a Whitelockii triple for a size/shape reference.

 

There are alternatives to whielockii which include hybrids that might fit the space better.  I will quote a good source on Encephalartos whitelockii, Loran Whitlock from his book "The Cycads".

In cultivation,  Encephalartos whitlockii is fast growing and trouble-free.   Insect infestations are unusual, and when they do occur they are easily controlled. This cycad has unexpected cold tolerance,  and there has been no apparent damage to mature leaves following exposure to several degrees of frost.  When grown in the Northern Hemisphere,  however, E.  whitlockii often produces new leaves in the winter, and these can be damaged during periods of frost.   The main drawback to growing this species is its large size,  and an area approximately 7.5 meters (25 feet) in diameter must be provided for its full development.   Even so, the overall effect of Encephalartos whitlockii in the landscape,  with its stiff, slightly arching leaves, is arresting. 

[Merlyn]

@Tracy and @PalmGuyPSL another hybrid that could fit in that spot is Revoluta x Debaoensis.  Here's a couple of photos from the forum:

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Merlyn.  I would need one the size of what is in the pictures to put in my yard.  Starting with a small specimen would never work. Our HOA mowers would roll right over it thinking it was a weed.  This seems like a hard find for me but still trying. I have two more feelers out to see if anyone has one or can get one.  If these two don’t come through I am out of suppliers over here.  Definitely couldn’t go somewhere and pick up something that size either. Fingers crossed.

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Merlyn I sourced a 25 gallon Dioon Edule for $175.00. Nice 4ft fronds and nice shape. I am waiting to here from the owner of this Palm tree place that has this Edule because whe I was going around the property I noticed she had some Copernicia palms that she is trying to grow out before she sells them but I am trying to see if she would sell me one.  I already have one of her Copernicia Alba that has about 8ft of trunk and about 12ft to the top of the highest frond.  I have three other collectors palms from her, one from her sons backyard. Fingers crossed this would be the best thing for that spot.

[byuind]

Flame Thrower?

[Merlyn]

A Dioon Edule with 4 foot fronds seems like a good choice for that spot.  Most have 2 to 3 foot fronds max, and would probably look small in an 8 foot wide space.  That sounds like a good deal for a 25 gallon, especially if it's got some trunk!  

[Palmfarmer]

Kentia, Majesty or Kentiopsis Oliviformis if you can source one for a fair price. 

[The Doctor]

On 9/2/2022 at 2:30 PM, iDesign said:

Wow, you're getting some great advice (from some very respected Palmtalkers).

As a Californian I'm not a good source for advice as to which palms will do well in your area, but I made a few mock-ups for you based on the recommendations of others. Though bottle palms are rare & fun in my area, sounds like they're extremely common in your area. And I agree that doing something OTHER than a third pinnate palm in that spot would be ideal. Here are my quick & dirty mockups for your consideration...

Serenoa repens:

Cocothrinax crinita ("old man palm"):

Latania lontaroides (while still relatively young):

Encephalartos Whitelockii? (or similar):

Copernicia macroglossa (trio):

I didn't spend much time on these (and the scale might be off on a couple), but should at least give you a feel for a few options. I personally like all of these layouts more than your original picks, since they provide contrast in both height & leaf type.

At the moment, my personal favorite is the macroglossa since it's "weird"... but so are the spindles. Would give this area a "Dr. Seuss" sort of feel (which you could even enhance with other small "weird" plants). Lots of other nice suggestions though (including some I didn't mockup).

Hope that helps! 

Wow, I am going to need to consult you professionally next time I'm ready to plant some new palms, those mock-ups are fire!

[PalmGuyPSL]

@The Doctor I see you are from PSL also.  Just wondering who you use to source some of your palms.  To get some hard to find palms I recommend Palm City Palms.  They have a great selection.

[PalmGuyPSL]

@Palmfarmeri have had a source for Kentiopsis for the past two years and always past them by for something else from the same place.  Now that was one of the ones I was thinking of but now they don’t have any.. I think they are holding back allot of their trees until fall and spring.  I am trying to get them to sell me a Copernicia Ekmani that they have been growing out a bunch but they told me today maybe next spring they will release one to me.  We shall see.

[The Doctor]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:34 PM, PalmGuyPSL said:

@The Doctor I see you are from PSL also.  Just wondering who you use to source some of your palms.  To get some hard to find palms I recommend Palm City Palms.  They have a great selection.

Thank you! I'm new to PSL and was wondering where I could get good palms without driving all the way to Miami. Going to check out Palm City Palms soon!

[PalmGuyPSL]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:28 PM, iDesign said:

Ooops!!! Is this better?
(happily I was able to edit the previous post in time)

Hemithrinax ekmaniana:

Note that scale might be way off... I've never seen this one where I live (but would love one). This plant, the "old men" & the macroglossa are indeed Dr. Seuss level "weird" - which I love. I think putting a short & "weird" fan palm (or several of them) would be a great look for this particular planter, but there are of course other options that would be nice as well.

@iDesigni was thinking instead of Hemithrinax ekmaniana: substituting Yucca Rostrata which would add a similar look and is also a flowering addition. If I could find the blue version even better.  The Hemithrinax would eventually be tall palms with a large beard.  I am not to fond of all that dry dead growth at the bottom.  What are your thoughts?

[iDesign]

47 minutes ago, PalmGuyPSL said:

@iDesigni was thinking instead of Hemithrinax ekmaniana: substituting Yucca Rostrata which would add a similar look and is also a flowering addition. If I could find the blue version even better.  The Hemithrinax would eventually be tall palms with a large beard.  I am not to fond of all that dry dead growth at the bottom.  What are your thoughts?

I'm not qualified to advise on this subject, as I'm from the West Coast and more of a dypsis/crysalidocarpus collector. But I can mock it up for you!

Behold "Yucca Rostrata Blue... Flowering" (from quick internet search). 
This one's a multi-head just for fun.

Hopefully someone who has info on Yucca care can chime in on the practicality part of your question.