Parajubaea torallyi. 8b?

[Peachs]

Do you think it will survive and support a dry 8b zone?

[tim_brissy_13]

@Peachsi don’t think they can tolerate that cold. We don’t really use the USDA zones here, but if I had to guess I’d say even 9a is marginal. 
 

Btw, is that your photo? Auckland Botanic Gardens right? I remember this plant and the massive Chrysalidocarpus decipiens in the distance behind it just visible in the photo. 

[UK_Palms]

The areas where they are growing here in the UK are all 10a / 9b zones - Isles of Scilly, Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Sussex, central London etc. I don't know of any growing in 9a zones, let alone 8b. I would say 9b is probably a bit marginal even in many places, since they will get a severe freeze every 30 years or so. It depends how big the UHI is in that location.

Parajubaea Torallyi will survive a severe freeze in protected central London where it is 9b, but they won't survive a severe freeze in a rural 9b zone with no real UHI, as they will get clobbered during freak cold events. The ones growing over here may see a couple of nights of 0C each year, or even -3C or -4C during bad years. If you get -6C most years, you can forget about it.

This one is about a mile inland from Penzance in southwest Cornwall at Tremenheere gardens, which is almost certainly 9b zone. I visited it less than 2 weeks ago.

[Peachs]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

@Peachsi don’t think they can tolerate that cold. We don’t really use the USDA zones here, but if I had to guess I’d say even 9a is marginal. 
 

Btw, is that your photo? Auckland Botanic Gardens right? I remember this plant and the massive Chrysalidocarpus decipiens in the distance behind it just visible in the photo. 

 

51 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

The areas where they are growing here in the UK are all 10a / 9b zones - Isles of Scilly, Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Sussex, central London etc. I don't know of any growing in 9a zones, let alone 8b. I would say 9b is probably a bit marginal even in many places, since they will get a severe freeze every 30 years or so. It depends how big the UHI is in that location.

Parajubaea Torallyi will survive a severe freeze in protected central London where it is 9b, but they won't survive a severe freeze in a rural 9b zone with no real UHI, as they will get clobbered during freak cold events. The ones growing over here may see a couple of nights of 0C each year, or even -3C or -4C during bad years. If you get -6C most years, you can forget about it.

This one is about a mile inland from Penzance in southwest Cornwall at Tremenheere gardens, which is almost certainly 9b zone. I visited it less than 2 weeks ago.

Thank you. That's what I thought, but I've been told that there are some parajubaea in Madrid (Spain, 8b) growing without problems. Maybe I'll buy a small one to try!

Perhaps it helps to be a very dry climate.

[UK_Palms]

4 minutes ago, Peachs said:

 

Thank you. That's what I thought, but I've been told that there are some parajubaea in Madrid (Spain, 8b) growing without problems. Maybe I'll buy a small one to try!

Perhaps it helps to be a very dry climate.

No harm in trying, I guess. What was your lowest temperature you had last winter?

I know Madrid got hit hard during the Jan/Feb 2021 freeze across western Europe. Even the protected parts of central London still went down to about -3C, maybe -4C. Paris saw widespread -8C to -10C. Madrid area by the botanical garden went down to -9C if I am not mistaken. Barajas airport in northwest of city went down to -11C, I think. Any idea how the Botanical Garden in Madrid fared? Didn't they have a Parajubaea Torallyi planted out there? If that survived it will give you hope.

[UK_Palms]

I have just been having a look around Madrid on street view and cant really see any CIDP's. I am sure there are some about, but the one CIDP I did find doesn't look too healthy with a small, damaged crown. Probably from the 2021 freeze. If that is the case though, I doubt Parajubaea would survive there in Madrid.

 

CIDP's should have big, full crowns. At least they will if they aren't getting defoliated during winter. The health of CIDP's is a good metric of hardiness in a particular zone.

 

[Peachs]

40 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I have just been having a look around Madrid on street view and cant really see any CIDP's. I am sure there are some about, but the one CIDP I did find doesn't look too healthy with a small, damaged crown. Probably from the 2021 freeze. If that is the case though, I doubt Parajubaea would survive there in Madrid.

 

CIDP's should have big, full crowns. At least they will if they aren't getting defoliated during winter. The health of CIDP's is a good metric of hardiness in a particular zone.

 

The problem with CIDP's is Rhynchophorus ferrugineus, so you may have seen some in bad condition.

[Peachs]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

No harm in trying, I guess. What was your lowest temperature you had last winter?

I know Madrid got hit hard during the Jan/Feb 2021 freeze across western Europe. Even the protected parts of central London still went down to about -3C, maybe -4C. Paris saw widespread -8C to -10C. Madrid area by the botanical garden went down to -9C if I am not mistaken. Barajas airport in northwest of city went down to -11C, I think. Any idea how the Botanical Garden in Madrid fared? Didn't they have a Parajubaea Torallyi planted out there? If that survived it will give you hope.

-8 but it rarely rains.

[UK_Palms]

42 minutes ago, Peachs said:

The problem with CIDP's is Rhynchophorus ferrugineus, so you may have seen some in bad condition.

I didn't think Rhynchophorus Ferrugineus was really a problem in Madrid due to the winter freezes? Do you have the beetle present in your location? I believe it is now present on the channel islands of Guernsey and Jersey too.

 

41 minutes ago, Peachs said:

-8 but it rarely rains.

That is pretty cold. I live 30 miles inland from the coast in a tiny rural village, so no UHI protection. My lowest last winter was -4.7C, I think. I still cannot grow Parajubaea here. Rainfall is only 18-20 inches a year for me here as well. I had 0.2 inches of rain in January. Even in dry conditions, Torallyi won't take -4C or below. It will get damaged, or defoliate. If that happens in back to back years, it will probably die. You really need a solid 9b for it to survive back to back years. It could probably take -5C or -6C okay if the following winter was only like -2C or -3C. 

[Peachs]

9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I didn't think Rhynchophorus Ferrugineus was really a problem in Madrid due to the winter freezes? Do you have the beetle present in your location? I believe it is now present on the channel islands of Guernsey and Jersey too.

 

That is pretty cold. I live 30 miles inland from the coast in a tiny rural village, so no UHI protection. My lowest last winter was -4.7C, I think. I still cannot grow Parajubaea here. Rainfall is only 18-20 inches a year for me here as well. I had 0.2 inches of rain in January. Even in dry conditions, Torallyi won't take -4C or below. It will get damaged, or defoliate. If that happens in back to back years, it will probably die. You really need a solid 9b for it to survive back to back years. It could probably take -5C or -6C okay if the following winter was only like -2C or -3C. 

Yes, especially with this species. It is already all over Spain.
 

If I find a cheap one I will try, but from what I read I don't have much hope! Here survives well Mule palm, for example. -8 is someday, because the winters are less cold and the future will be like that.

[Foxpalms]

10 minutes ago, Peachs said:

Yes, especially with this species. It is already all over Spain.
 

If I find a cheap one I will try, but from what I read I don't have much hope! Here survives well Mule palm, for example. -8 is someday, because the winters are less cold and the future will be like that.

Could always try one under some tree canopy but is still able to get lots of sun or plant in near the house. I think frost is more damaging to parajubaea than cold so it's worth a try.

[Peachs]

1 hour ago, Foxpalms said:

Could always try one under some tree canopy but is still able to get lots of sun or plant in near the house. I think frost is more damaging to parajubaea than cold so it's worth a try.

Thank you! I will let you know how the experiment goes

[Peachs]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I didn't think Rhynchophorus Ferrugineus was really a problem in Madrid due to the winter freezes? Do you have the beetle present in your location? I believe it is now present on the channel islands of Guernsey and Jersey too.

 

That is pretty cold. I live 30 miles inland from the coast in a tiny rural village, so no UHI protection. My lowest last winter was -4.7C, I think. I still cannot grow Parajubaea here. Rainfall is only 18-20 inches a year for me here as well. I had 0.2 inches of rain in January. Even in dry conditions, Torallyi won't take -4C or below. It will get damaged, or defoliate. If that happens in back to back years, it will probably die. You really need a solid 9b for it to survive back to back years. It could probably take -5C or -6C okay if the following winter was only like -2C or -3C. 

https://archivo.infojardin.com/tema/parajubaea-torallyi-y-otras-palmas-en-el-real-jardin-botanico-de-madrid.309644/

[UK_Palms]

21 minutes ago, Peachs said:

https://archivo.infojardin.com/tema/parajubaea-torallyi-y-otras-palmas-en-el-real-jardin-botanico-de-madrid.309644/

Interesting. It seems that post is 10 years old now though. If those Parajubaea's are still alive now in Madrid, then maybe they will do okay in your location. I suspect they may have been knocked out though in freezes since 2012, which is when the post is dated. They would have had to of survived -8C or -9C at least and quite a bit of snow during the 2021 freeze. That just seems too cold for a Parajubaea. Maybe I am wrong though. How cold did you get in your location again during the Jan/Feb 2021 freeze?

[Peachs]

12 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Interesting. It seems that post is 10 years old now though. If those Parajubaea's are still alive now in Madrid, then maybe they will do okay in your location. I suspect they may have been knocked out though in freezes since 2012, which is when the post is dated. They would have had to of survived -8C or -9C at least and quite a bit of snow during the 2021 freeze. That just seems too cold for a Parajubaea. Maybe I am wrong though. How cold did you get in your location again during the Jan/Feb 2021 freeze?

-7 -8... Less cold and less duration than in Madrid. I live 200kms west of Madrid (Salamanca).

I will try to find out if they continue today.

[Chester B]

It won’t survive without help. Honestly I wouldn’t bother. The list of 8b palms is pretty well defined at this point in time. You’re best bet is to try a Butia x PJT. 

[matthedlund]

For what it's worth, I've tried and killed many Parajubaea torralyi in a warm zone 8b garden in Seattle, WA, USA; even a big 36" box specimen.  They simply aren't quite hardy enough. I am growing intergeneric hybrids involving Parajubaea and they've been faring much better. My Butia odorata x Parajubaea torralyi shows plenty of the Parajubaea look for my tastes.

[Peachs]

15 hours ago, Chester B said:

It won’t survive without help. Honestly I wouldn’t bother. The list of 8b palms is pretty well defined at this point in time. You’re best bet is to try a Butia x PJT. 

 

3 hours ago, matthedlund said:

For what it's worth, I've tried and killed many Parajubaea torralyi in a warm zone 8b garden in Seattle, WA, USA; even a big 36" box specimen.  They simply aren't quite hardy enough. I am growing intergeneric hybrids involving Parajubaea and they've been faring much better. My Butia odorata x Parajubaea torralyi shows plenty of the Parajubaea look for my tastes.

I think the chances of success are too low. Thank you very much!

[Peachs]

On 9/11/2022 at 10:36 PM, UK_Palms said:

Interesting. It seems that post is 10 years old now though. If those Parajubaea's are still alive now in Madrid, then maybe they will do okay in your location. I suspect they may have been knocked out though in freezes since 2012, which is when the post is dated. They would have had to of survived -8C or -9C at least and quite a bit of snow during the 2021 freeze. That just seems too cold for a Parajubaea. Maybe I am wrong though. How cold did you get in your location again during the Jan/Feb 2021 freeze?

All parajubaea died in Madrid in 2021, confirmed with a worker of the botanical garden. It is confirmed that it is not 8b, in the long term.

[UK_Palms]

39 minutes ago, Peachs said:

All parajubaea died in Madrid in 2021, confirmed with a worker of the botanical garden. It is confirmed that it is not 8b, in the long term.

I had a feeling they might have died due to how low those temperatures were (down to -10C), also combined with 1-2 foot of snow. That would be brutal cold even by our standards here in the UK.

It goes to show just how mild the south coast of England is then at 50N since they have crownshaft palms and quite a few decent Parajubaea’s. Lamorran Garden has a 20+ footer Parajubaea Cocoides growing there, which I visited last month. There is some debate as to how hardy these are, but the owner of the gardens insists they haven’t had a frost since 1989! That is on the English mainland as well.

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 9/11/2022 at 10:48 PM, Peachs said:

-7 -8... Less cold and less duration than in Madrid. I live 200kms west of Madrid (Salamanca).

I will try to find out if they continue today.

Hi, I passed Salamanca recently by car and unfortunately I didn't see any palm trees. I remember a post about a Washingtonia (possibly filifera) that grows in Salamanca, meseta Norte, which seemed to be quite unique given the cold winters. Do you know if it's still there or are Washingtonians more common nowadays in Salamanca? 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Axel Amsterdam

[Peachs]

13 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Hi, I passed Salamanca recently by car and unfortunately I didn't see any palm trees. I remember a post about a Washingtonia (possibly filifera) that grows in Salamanca, meseta Norte, which seemed to be quite unique given the cold winters. Do you know if it's still there or are Washingtonians more common nowadays in Salamanca? 

Here 95% are Trachycarpus. 5% C. Humilis, Washingtonia. I have a Filifera and it grows very well. The winters here are milder, now the temperatures are not so low. Near my house there are 6 W. Robusta that seem to grow well.