Tried transplanting a Copernicia sp.

[tiburcio]

can Copernicia be bare rooted and transplanted? it´s about 2 years old from a strap leaf.  will it make it? it´s a death sentence? hope for the best, expect the worst? any thoughts? have another four in the same  loose growing media (it falls apart when digging them out).

[aztropic]

If there is no damage to the roots,it probably has a decent chance to recover. That being said,I have killed a fair number of them under the same circumstances when up potting. If the soil completely falls off the roots,it can be a 50/50 proposition. I have learned over time to plant them in a heavier soil that when dry,is more like a brick that doesn't crumble apart during transplants.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[tiburcio]

ratz. thats a flip of a coin !!! will see if I can leave a couple where they are and remove the other couple veeeryyyy caaarefuuullyyyy. if it survives will transplant a couple more. do they take forever to die back? or it takes days, weeks, months, years to know if they will make it or not??

[Looking Glass]

Crazy roots!  

[aztropic]

10 hours ago, tiburcio said:

ratz. thats a flip of a coin !!! will see if I can leave a couple where they are and remove the other couple veeeryyyy caaarefuuullyyyy. if it survives will transplant a couple more. do they take forever to die back? or it takes days, weeks, months, years to know if they will make it or not??

You will know within 1 month if the transplant was successful. If not,you will see the leaves drying up,no matter what you do to try and save the plant. Pics of a 7 gallon cowellii that didn't make it...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[sonoranfans]

Digging up in the ground cuban copernicias is a tricky proposition.  Even if they dont die they could suffer a setback that could take a year or two to recover from.  I have not had issues repotting them when small as long as they are root bound and you wait for the soil to dry so its not a heavy rootball.  Once they go in the ground, the risk of death goes up.  When I do repot if the soil breaks away, I hold the palm at its desired depth within the container and put in light/dry potting soil and rise gently so it settles without bending roots.  The trick is to get the soil to settle without putting pressure on roots.  Once planted they need to be protected when small, I put a wire fence around it for a couple years while the roots develop.  Good luck with these, but don't treat them like other palms, bent or fractured roots will "bleed" and this can cause death.  When theya re larfer say 15 gallon always handle by the rootball,. do not grab the above ground part of the palm as this can also damage roots.  And like all other palms let them dry out -so the soil is light- before handling them prior to putting them in the ground or another pot.  Think of it this way, if someone puts a 50 lb weight tied to your foot and then lifts you by the chest, that leg is going to see some high tension.

[tiburcio]

I did damage the tip of a couple of the big roots. hope it makes it !!!  

 

How often should I water it? This is less than a day after the transplant !! Put some shade on it (since it was in a very shady spot) while it "settles".

[Fusca]

South American Copernicias (alba, prunifera) are more forgiving.  Below is a blue alba that I dug up in May and transplanted from San Antonio to Rio Hondo.  It did nothing but use up fronds for over 4 months before it finally started moving.  Now it's pushing 4 or 5 normal fronds after a couple of deformed ones.

[tiburcio]

4 hours ago, Fusca said:

South American Copernicias (alba, prunifera) are more forgiving.  Below is a blue alba that I dug up in May and transplanted from San Antonio to Rio Hondo.  It did nothing but use up fronds for over 4 months before it finally started moving.  Now it's pushing 4 or 5 normal fronds after a couple of deformed ones.

how often did you watered it the first month !!  that´s super good news, IT´S ALIIIIIVEEEE !! it gives me hope. hope it gets better looking soon.

[tiburcio]

12 hours ago, aztropic said:

You will know within 1 month if the transplant was successful. If not,you will see the leaves drying up,no matter what you do to try and save the plant. Pics of a 7 gallon cowellii that didn't make it...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

the time is ticking then. I got to move them, either way, theres going to be a brick wall there soon, transplanting them its the only way.

[tiburcio]

11 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Digging up in the ground cuban copernicias is a tricky proposition.  Even if they dont die they could suffer a setback that could take a year or two to recover from.  I have not had issues repotting them when small as long as they are root bound and you wait for the soil to dry so its not a heavy rootball.  Once they go in the ground, the risk of death goes up.  When I do repot if the soil breaks away, I hold the palm at its desired depth within the container and put in light/dry potting soil and rise gently so it settles without bending roots.  The trick is to get the soil to settle without putting pressure on roots.  Once planted they need to be protected when small, I put a wire fence around it for a couple years while the roots develop.  Good luck with these, but don't treat them like other palms, bent or fractured roots will "bleed" and this can cause death.  When theya re larfer say 15 gallon always handle by the rootball,. do not grab the above ground part of the palm as this can also damage roots.  And like all other palms let them dry out -so the soil is light- before handling them prior to putting them in the ground or another pot.  Think of it this way, if someone puts a 50 lb weight tied to your foot and then lifts you by the chest, that leg is going to see some high tension.

mr sonorafans, this one came almost intact and it´s a little bigger. hope it makes it !!  

this is the second one to be transplanted. in its final spot.

[Looking Glass]

58 minutes ago, tiburcio said:

mr sonorafans, this one came almost intact and it´s a little bigger. hope it makes it !!  

this is the second one to be transplanted. in its final spot.

 

These root pics are great.  Really gives you an idea of what is going on under the dirt.   Almost looks like Agave roots a little.  
What Copernicia species is this?  I didn’t notice any mention above.  

[tiburcio]

4 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

These root pics are great.  Really gives you an idea of what is going on under the dirt.   Almost looks like Agave roots a little.  
What Copernicia species is this?  I didn’t notice any mention above.  

cant remember. hope they make it and in a few years post a picture of whatever survives to get them identified. 

[sonoranfans]

11 hours ago, tiburcio said:

mr sonorafans, this one came almost intact and it´s a little bigger. hope it makes it !!  

this is the second one to be transplanted. in its final spot.

Tiburcio, your palms Look like they have good root development, just be gentle around them.  Its hard to say at this age what species it is but its not macroglossa or hospita.  My bet is they are baileyana.  Baileyana is not a small palm, crown of a mature one is over 15' across so you might need to clear some room for it if anything is closer than 10' trunk to trunk.  I put a 18" fence around my little 3 gallon size bailey(10-12 inch tall) for 3 years when I planted it in 2011.  It has been a pretty good grower, its now over 15' tall with 3-4' of trunk.  Your palms have nice color, they don't look stressed to me at this point.   I would protect them from getting stepped on and animals as the roots can be damaged that way at a young age.   At 8300 ft elevation you will want to water them well.  I am not familiar with your climate but they will take down to 26 degrees F and they do like moisture with heat.  

[JubaeaMan138]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Tiburcio, your palms Look like they have good root development, just be gentle around them.  Its hard to say at this age what species it is but its not macroglossa or hospita.  My bet is they are baileyana.  Baileyana is not a small palm, crown of a mature one is over 15' across so you might need to clear some room for it if anything is closer than 10' trunk to trunk.  I put a 18" fence around my little 3 gallon size bailey(10-12 inch tall) for 3 years when I planted it in 2011.  It has been a pretty good grower, its now over 15' tall with 3-4' of trunk.  Your palms have nice color, they don't look stressed to me at this point.   I would protect them from getting stepped on and animals as the roots can be damaged that way at a young age.   At 8300 ft elevation you will want to water them well.  I am not familiar with your climate but they will take down to 26 degrees F and they do like moisture with heat.  

So I was going to say Bailey as well. But if i was a betting man I’d say this plant has a zero chance of Surviving . I’ve never had luck moving them this size and I was  felt good about the root ball . Learned my lesson make sure these are were they are going to be . But I hope not doesn’t miss a beat ! Would be great to see . It Definetly already looks like it will be a majestic palm 

[sonoranfans]

1 hour ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

So I was going to say Bailey as well. But if i was a betting man I’d say this plant has a zero chance of Surviving . I’ve never had luck moving them this size and I was  felt good about the root ball . Learned my lesson make sure these are were they are going to be . But I hope not doesn’t miss a beat ! Would be great to see . It Definetly already looks like it will be a majestic palm 

If it was riverside, they would surely get roasted.  But in cochabamba  the temperature typically varies from 46°F to 73°F and is rarely below 42°F or above 78° they might have a shot.  Another question not answered yet is whether there is a pathogen attack on those roots.

[sonoranfans]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:51 PM, tiburcio said:

ratz. thats a flip of a coin !!! will see if I can leave a couple where they are and remove the other couple veeeryyyy caaarefuuullyyyy. if it survives will transplant a couple more. do they take forever to die back? or it takes days, weeks, months, years to know if they will make it or not??

for a small one the time will be shorter, a month or two.  I had a 5' tall hospita go into decline after root disturbance and it took a couple years.

[Fusca]

On 10/12/2022 at 8:11 PM, tiburcio said:

how often did you watered it the first month !!  that´s super good news, IT´S ALIIIIIVEEEE !! it gives me hope. hope it gets better looking soon.

Thanks, I hope yours makes it!  I watered it probably 3-4 times a week since it was 40°C most days and probably should have watered it more but it's doing well now.

[tiburcio]

18 hours ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

So I was going to say Bailey as well. But if i was a betting man I’d say this plant has a zero chance of Surviving . I’ve never had luck moving them this size and I was  felt good about the root ball . Learned my lesson make sure these are were they are going to be . But I hope not doesn’t miss a beat ! Would be great to see . It Definetly already looks like it will be a majestic palm 

nooo, please, dont jinx them !! but they did suffer quite a bit with the transplant, the roots were way too long. Oh well, I did my best and tried to save them. Theres one of these group of five that if I manage to lean it a few centimeters to one side it might end one foot of the future brick wall to be installed but I´m afraid of it being to close to that when it gets bigger.

The palms are not in cochabamba, they are in a savanna type climate. it´s dry and hot usually, except in the monsoon months. no frosts.

[tiburcio]

19 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Tiburcio, your palms Look like they have good root development, just be gentle around them.  Its hard to say at this age what species it is but its not macroglossa or hospita.  My bet is they are baileyana.  Baileyana is not a small palm, crown of a mature one is over 15' across so you might need to clear some room for it if anything is closer than 10' trunk to trunk.  I put a 18" fence around my little 3 gallon size bailey(10-12 inch tall) for 3 years when I planted it in 2011.  It has been a pretty good grower, its now over 15' tall with 3-4' of trunk.  Your palms have nice color, they don't look stressed to me at this point.   I would protect them from getting stepped on and animals as the roots can be damaged that way at a young age.   At 8300 ft elevation you will want to water them well.  I am not familiar with your climate but they will take down to 26 degrees F and they do like moisture with heat.  

Im planting these at about 3 to 4 m apart from each other. These little palms are in a raised beds, no danger of being stepeed on. Mr Jubaea said he´s betting on these dying!! He might be correct, I´m not an expert transplanting this sensitive root palm genus and he has a lot and I did damage the roots. let´s call it "time of adventure" and have fun. This group of palms are in a savannah type climate. hot and dry, frost free.

[tiburcio]

4 hours ago, Fusca said:

Thanks, I hope yours makes it!  I watered it probably 3-4 times a week since it was 40°C most days and probably should have watered it more but it's doing well now.

thanks for the tip. will do it acoordingly. and  hope at least some make it. 

[JubaeaMan138]

1 hour ago, tiburcio said:

Im planting these at about 3 to 4 m apart from each other. These little palms are in a raised beds, no danger of being stepeed on. Mr Jubaea said he´s betting on these dying!! He might be correct, I´m not an expert transplanting this sensitive root palm genus and he has a lot and I did damage the roots. let´s call it "time of adventure" and have fun. This group of palms are in a savannah type climate. hot and dry, frost free.

The 2 I moved recently were planted for a short time and I moved them because I didn’t think the spot through. I dug the new hole they were going into prior so when I dug them out they went straight into the new holes and within a week they declined it was also during the warmer season and they were watered heavily for transplant . Also like I stated I got pretty good root ball size on them . But I had plenty more of them and though if they die they die . And sure enough they died but best of luck ! 

[tiburcio]

1 hour ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

The 2 I moved recently were planted for a short time and I moved them because I didn’t think the spot through. I dug the new hole they were going into prior so when I dug them out they went straight into the new holes and within a week they declined it was also during the warmer season and they were watered heavily for transplant . Also like I stated I got pretty good root ball size on them . But I had plenty more of them and though if they die they die . And sure enough they died but best of luck ! 

thanks for your story, sharing is caring, we all can learn from mutual mistakes if we share them. like i said, if they die, they die. got only five copies. i got one bizzy in case they die. one thing forgot completely about were pathogens, forgot to treat them against fungi.

[sonoranfans]

5 hours ago, tiburcio said:

Im planting these at about 3 to 4 m apart from each other. These little palms are in a raised beds, no danger of being stepeed on. Mr Jubaea said he´s betting on these dying!! He might be correct, I´m not an expert transplanting this sensitive root palm genus and he has a lot and I did damage the roots. let´s call it "time of adventure" and have fun. This group of palms are in a savannah type climate. hot and dry, frost free.

Chris(Jubaeaman) is probably right but you might get one to survive.  Dont give up, water when soil is not moist to the touch when you poke your finer 1" down and if you can put humic acid down I would do that as it inhibits some pathogens and pests.  I did dig up and repot a hospita that size a few years back in our cool season, and it survived.  It was stunted compared to the 2 other ones the same size that I never put in the ground, but it lives today in a 7 gallon container.  I do not recommend digging these up, the ones(2) I didnt plant and dig are 2-3 times bigger today(about 3 years later.  And I also did repot the one I dug up so, going back into the ground, not sure about that.

[JubaeaMan138]

7 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Chris(Jubaeaman) is probably right but you might get one to survive.  Dont give up, water when soil is not moist to the touch when you poke your finer 1" down and if you can put humic acid down I would do that as it inhibits some pathogens and pests.   

It just scares me to see all those roots bare like that… seems with palms in general if air hits it roots your doomed . 

Edited October 14, 2022 by JubaeaMan138

[tiburcio]

7 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Chris(Jubaeaman) is probably right but you might get one to survive.  Dont give up, water when soil is not moist to the touch when you poke your finer 1" down and if you can put humic acid down I would do that as it inhibits some pathogens and pests.  I did dig up and repot a hospita that size a few years back in our cool season, and it survived.  It was stunted compared to the 2 other ones the same size that I never put in the ground, but it lives today in a 7 gallon container.  I do not recommend digging these up, the ones(2) I didnt plant and dig are 2-3 times bigger today(about 3 years later.  And I also did repot the one I dug up so, going back into the ground, not sure about that.

you should plant the stunted one back into the ground!! it should wake up... I guess. I just read a lady received a barerooted copie in the mail and it did fine !!! there´s hope. just figured I can leave one of the five copies in its original spot !! it will live to live another day and to reveal us its id, eventually !! that´s a good news !!!

[tiburcio]

7 hours ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

It just scares me to see all those roots bare like that… seems with palms in general if air hits it roots your doomed . 

hi jubaea man!!, just read in the forum posts that she received a bare rooted copie in the mail, no substrate at all and did survive !! that´s good news. and also decided to left one untoched and keep it where it is planted and discover its id if the other four don´t make it .

[tiburcio]

this one is the one which shall remain intact and tell us its true id ... if the others don´t make it. time will tell. unfortunately it´s one of the smallest.

[tiburcio]

someone knows if latanias are more forgiving than copernicias when transplanted or bare rooted, oh boy, here we go again.

[JubaeaMan138]

46 minutes ago, tiburcio said:

someone knows if latanias are more forgiving than copernicias when transplanted or bare rooted, oh boy, here we go again.

No clue! But man that is killer can’t wait to get mine in the ground next spring . 

[aztropic]

1 hour ago, tiburcio said:

someone knows if latanias are more forgiving than copernicias when transplanted or bare rooted, oh boy, here we go again.

They are not... Cut or broken roots often are a death sentence.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[tiburcio]

49 minutes ago, aztropic said:

They are not... Cut or broken roots often are a death sentence.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

oh, come on, i can´t catch a break. i said, sowing palm seeds  will be lots of fun... and it was until i did it all wrong. lol won´t be able to transplant the latanias till spring. hope some of these make it.   thank you guys for your wisdow, i learn my fair share with all my mistakes. it was a long time since fiddling with the palmaceae world.

[tiburcio]

1 hour ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

No clue! But man that is killer can’t wait to get mine in the ground next spring . 

your latania seems very compact, mine are in lots of shade, i need to remove it and harden them off.  thank you for the picture.

[JubaeaMan138]

20 hours ago, tiburcio said:

your latania seems very compact, mine are in lots of shade, i need to remove it and harden them off.  thank you for the picture.

Mine gets full sun for about 8 hours atleast . Hit sun to . Heavily Watered as well. I’ve treated it just like bismarks . 

[Mandrew968]

What's with all the palm torture?....

[tiburcio]

4 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

What's with all the palm torture?....

quit messing with palms a few years ago and a few years dealing with agaves... and this happened !! not sure if I´ll be able to transplant the latanias, in a few days will be out of the gardening world for a while and then will approach this endeavor, maybe.

 

what´s your scope with the copies bare rooting?? death sentence? explanatory torture? innovative technique of the future? % of success??

[tiburcio]

this is it. this is the last copie I´ll ever move. i know best now.

this time only one big root got injured and did dust some sulfur on it. this is the biggest one of the bunch. now wait a few months a see what´s next.

[JubaeaMan138]

So this is funny was pulling weeds in the front property and pulled back a bunch of spurge grass and this guy was underneath Bailey I moved last year that spear pulled on and all the leaves died back looks good now . 

[tiburcio]

14 hours ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

So this is funny was pulling weeds in the front property and pulled back a bunch of spurge grass and this guy was underneath Bailey I moved last year that spear pulled on and all the leaves died back looks good now . 

that´s a score. happened a few times with bizzies due to murderous squirrel.

[tiburcio]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:18 AM, sonoranfans said:

Digging up in the ground cuban copernicias is a tricky proposition.  Even if they dont die they could suffer a setback that could take a year or two to recover from.  I have not had issues repotting them when small as long as they are root bound and you wait for the soil to dry so its not a heavy rootball.  Once they go in the ground, the risk of death goes up.  When I do repot if the soil breaks away, I hold the palm at its desired depth within the container and put in light/dry potting soil and rise gently so it settles without bending roots.  The trick is to get the soil to settle without putting pressure on roots.  Once planted they need to be protected when small, I put a wire fence around it for a couple years while the roots develop.  Good luck with these, but don't treat them like other palms, bent or fractured roots will "bleed" and this can cause death.  When theya re larfer say 15 gallon always handle by the rootball,. do not grab the above ground part of the palm as this can also damage roots.  And like all other palms let them dry out -so the soil is light- before handling them prior to putting them in the ground or another pot.  Think of it this way, if someone puts a 50 lb weight tied to your foot and then lifts you by the chest, that leg is going to see some high tension.

I wonde if your copernicias have stopped growing because of the weather