Most cold hardy date palm.

[GoatLockerGuns]

8 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

A 30 year old specimen looks like an overgrown P. roebelenii seedling that was grown in shade and still hasn't developed a trunk yet.

You are correct; they are not very common in cultivation.  If you have one growing, I would love to see a picture of it.

[JohnAndSancho]

14 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Out of all the people on PalmTalk.... I appreciate your humor the most.

That's what I'm here for. 

[ahosey01]

15 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

You are correct; they are not very common in cultivation.  If you have one growing, I would love to see a picture of it.

Here is a link where I just recently found out mine (which I've had for about two years but is about 5 years old) is variegated:

 

[SeanK]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:44 PM, GoatLockerGuns said:

Anecdotally, I would concur.  Most Phoenix canariensis survived the freeze event here pretty well.  But there is observation bias here as well in that most of the Phoenix spp. planted here are Phoenix canariensis.  There are far more Phoenix canariensis planted in the San Antonio area and environs than other Phoenix spp.  That is probably because Phoenix canariensis are generally thought to be more cold hardy than other Phoenix spp.  I do not think there were enough other Phoenix spp. planted here to do a really thorough comparison.  But from just driving around town, it pretty clear that Phoenix canariensis held up really well under those freeze conditions.

 

There were a large number of mature Phoenix dactylifera planted at the RIM in the summer of 2020.  All of them were killed in the freeze, along with some older Phoenix dactylifera planted there.  The newer ones probably were not established enough by the time the freeze hit in February, but the older ones had been there for many years.  In downtown San Antonio, there were some Phoenix dactylifera and Phoenix reclinata that survived the freeze.  A clump of Phoenix reclinata trunk died (or at least were trunk cut by the city the following summer), but came back from suckers in the clump.  At the entrance to the RIM on La Cantera Parkway, there are some interesting mature Phoenix spp. that survived the freeze.  They look very similar to Phoenix canariensis, but the drupes resemble Phoenix sylvestris (probably some sort of hybrid).  4 of 5 of them survived the freeze (actually, that is not entirely true; all 5 had new growth during the summer of 2021, but one later succumbed...possibly due to humidity issues from the wet spring of 2021).  A guy near Frederick Wilderness Park had a bunch of mature Phoenix sylvestris and Syagrus romanzoffiana planted in his back yard.  They were all killed by the freeze.  He replaced them all with new Phoenix sylvestris in the summer of 2021.  All of the in-ground planted Phoenix roebelenii along the Riverwalk that I know of were killed by the freeze.  Many of those have since been replaced with new Phoenix roebelenii.

I had a similar thought. If a random sample of 100 Phoenix spp yields 

65 canarienses 

23 dactylifera 

8 sylvestris 

3 roebellini 

1 reclinata 

Maybe not a good sample if survivors are 39 canarienses and 2 dactylifera

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xerarch]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

I had a similar thought. If a random sample of 100 Phoenix spp yields 

65 canarienses 

23 dactylifera 

8 sylvestris 

3 roebellini 

1 reclinata 

Maybe not a good sample if survivors are 39 canarienses and 2 dactylifera

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good point and I also think it's worth considering that one of the reasons that CIDP's initially outnumber dacty pre-freeze is because they have survived previous freezes more successfully than dactylifera.  This plays out over time in marginal climates, for example, I can think of a number of CIDP's in St. George Utah that last and last, I can point you to quite a few that I've been watching since the 90's and they're still there, even with a temp right around 0 being recorded in that time.  The CIDP's just keep bouncing back and they have enough warmth and mild temps that they rebound enough to keep going between severe freezes.  P dacty on the other hand, I'll spot some and get excited that there are plantings of them, but they never seem to last, they wear down/don't replace enough crown, and ultimately kick the bucket after so many years or after a particularly cold event.  You can still find very few around that get protected or are in a favorable spot etc.  but hands down the CIDP's last better in that marginal climate.  No I can't cite scientific studies, but I've observed enough that I'm satisfied that CIDP is hardier as far as total survivability.  

[fr8train]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:48 PM, GoatLockerGuns said:

Some Phoenix spp. survivors of the February 2021 freeze in San Antonio:

Phoenix reclinata (Oblate School of Theology):

Phoenix dactylifera (Oblate School of Theology):

Three of six Phoenix dactylifera planted in the open survived at the Oblate School of Theology.  Two of those survivors had new growth from both the main truck, as well as the suckers.  One of them trunk died, but grew back from suckers.

I took a trip out there in January and the Phoenix all looked pretty cooked, at least the ones I saw. Hopefully they recover. 

[fr8train]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:36 AM, Collectorpalms said:

In regards to the most cold hardy Phoenix dactylifera, head to Carrizo Springs, Texas ( between Laredo and San Antonio).  They are planted throughout the town. There are articles online you can find about trials of date palms for agriculture in Texas. The first dactylifera was planted before 1880 and lived at least into the 1950s. In 1911 500 dactylifera were planted nearby. Several different named varieties including seedlings dates were planted in Texas, so Its hard to say what is left. But several survived the 1980s and few died in 2021. So they have several old and tall ones that survived down to 10F. So far no signs of diseases that have killed the ones from the Rio Grand Valley and elsewhere.

This is very interesting, I wonder how they're doing after the December freeze? Maybe I can find a way to make it out there at some point. 

[Xenon]

@fr8train@UK_Palms

Here are some random pre-89 CIDP from quick google image search. All of these were removed prior to the recent freezes due to disease (lethal bronzing). Similar story for most large (everything pre-89) in Texas.  Everything from Corpus and south is loooong gone, Houston is nearly wiped out and I don't know how long Galveston can hold on. CIDP is not a good landscape plant for south Texas and it has nothing to do with cold. You would've seen more CIDP (or at least their dead trunks) in Houston and San Antonio in the 2000s when the disease hadn't totally wiped out everything yet. 

The CIDP at the Rim will be ok until they get 10-20 feet+ of trunk and become disease magnets (for some reason, young and palms just starting to trunk seem ok). Or somebody will neglect to sterilize their pruning shears....

These were declining in 2017 and dead by 2018

 

Removed sometime between March 2019 and Feb 2021 (a young CIDP across the street is completely green so the image capture is from early Feb, pre-freeze)

Edited February 28, 2023 by Xenon

[RJ]

Perhaps it’s the shear mass of the CIDP that lends to its hardiness ? 

[ChicagoPalma]

I'm a little curious, what date palm would be a very cold hardy and can survive wet winters? I heard Phoenix theophrasti might be, but maybe I got it mixed up.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by ChicagoPalma

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Everything from Corpus and south is loooong gone, Houston is nearly wiped out and I don't know how long Galveston can hold on.

 

Well it looks like Galveston is dying too...as of now there are still there are some centennial palms around. Many more in the 50-100 year range. The last stronghold of old CIDP in Texas 😭. These have stood the test of time, hurricanes, and freezes all to die from this stupid disease 😡

This one appears in a historical photo from 1935 with already a few feet of trunk

 

These are probably about as old as the mansion, built 1905

 

1890s-early 1900s?

There are some others of similar size scattered about

Edited February 28, 2023 by Xenon

[NBTX11]

11 hours ago, Xenon said:

@fr8train@UK_Palms

Here are some random pre-89 CIDP from quick google image search. All of these were removed prior to the recent freezes due to disease (lethal bronzing). Similar story for most large (everything pre-89) in Texas.  Everything from Corpus and south is loooong gone, Houston is nearly wiped out and I don't know how long Galveston can hold on. CIDP is not a good landscape plant for south Texas and it has nothing to do with cold. You would've seen more CIDP (or at least their dead trunks) in Houston and San Antonio in the 2000s when the disease hadn't totally wiped out everything yet. 

The CIDP at the Rim will be ok until they get 10-20 feet+ of trunk and become disease magnets (for some reason, young and palms just starting to trunk seem ok). Or somebody will neglect to sterilize their pruning shears....

These were declining in 2017 and dead by 2018

Removed sometime between March 2019 and Feb 2021 (a young CIDP across the street is completely green so the image capture is from early Feb, pre-freeze)

Several big ones in New Braunfels appear to be hanging on.  We did lose a really, really old one with a mangled beat up trunk a few years ago (prior to the Feb 21 freeze I think).  I'll see if I can get some shots this weekend.

[Will]

Phoenix theoprastii 'Epidaurus' is supposed to be the hardiest one. There are some recent articles about it being as hardy as a Jubaea

[Axel Amsterdam]

15 minutes ago, Will said:

Phoenix theoprastii 'Epidaurus' is supposed to be the hardiest one. There are some recent articles about it being as hardy as a Jubaea

That’s highly questionable, there are some reports in lab circumstances but they don’t convince me as i know several small plants died in Holland after a wet cold winter.  

I have also seen some pictures of 2 tiny ones that survived the 2018 winter from a large batch. Ofcourse tiny plants have their growing points below the mulch level so they are sometimes able to survive. 

I am not convinced because the reported hardiness is from a source that also sells them and the ones that died are from buyers posting on forums. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:40 AM, Jerrrod said:

...I keep getting conflicting information on the internet.

No! 🤣

[Arecaceus]

I would have said P. theophrastii 'Golkoy' until it spear pulled for me a couple of weeks ago. It's still a small plant but it survived a bad cold spell in February 2021 (unprotected for a couple of days then tied together under bucket with some mulch). We had several cold spells this winter but the one in 2021 was way worse. Allthewhile newly planted P. canariensis and P. theophrastii survived this winter (to be fully confirmed in spring/summer) practically unharmed (but covered from the get go of the first big freeze in Dec. '22) at a much more exposed location in the middle of my garden. The 'Golkoy' is in my front garden very close to the house. I don't know what caused it to spear pull this year. It's in a dry protected spot as well but I has seen two replantings and this winter our temperatures went from very warm to very cold to very warm to very cold again and so on... I'm still convinced that this palm could be one of the toughest Phoenix for wet winter climates. It's a small variety though.

Last pictures looking fine in late November 2022 🥲:

:

[Axel Amsterdam]

Hortulanus, unfortunately your experience with Golkoy is shared with many Dutch and UK growers. It doesnt seem to like our wet winters. 

There is a nice large theo in the UK but that’s within the robusta growth zone.

[Arecaceus]

8 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Hortulanus, unfortunately your experience with Golkoy is shared with many Dutch and UK growers. It doesnt seem to like our wet winters. 

There is a nice large theo in the UK but that’s within the robusta growth zone.

Yes but it's in a really dry spot and it survived the February 2021 freeze almost without damage, when still planted in a wetter spot. It breezed through every winter at a young age, as I planted it as a strap leaf. And I relocated it twice. That's why I'm surprised that it might got wiped out by this winter. A normal P. theophrastii in my garden still looks fine (for now).

This is my standard P. theophrastii in the garden. You can see the Olive tree next to it has dropped many leaves from the cold. Picture was taken 3 days ago:

[Axel Amsterdam]

That theo looks promising, but still we have to be patient until it warms up. When you say dry, do you mean drainage or overhead?

[Arecaceus]

9 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

That theo looks promising, but still we have to be patient until it warms up. When you say dry, do you mean drainage or overhead?

Overhead. It's so close to the house that there is still a bit of roof above it. Even in the wettest of winters it's quite dry there. Soil is good draining as well. Yup I will wait till it warms up. The palm has been growing already though. First in January and then even February. I know it's out of focus but you can see the bright new foliage coming out of the centre. What's even more crazy is that I have a very small seed grown P. canariensis in a 9 cm or 11 cm pot that has been standing close to the wall during the December freeze '22 for the whole event and the pot froze through. It was solid! Wet soil! And it didn't look bad. I put it inside after the freeze into a non heated room with temperatures around 10 to 15°C and it took more than 40 hours to defrost completely. I waited and it looked fine. I put it outside and during the warm spells in January it also started growing a bit. It took some damage on the upcoming spear but other than that it's fine. I have not taken a photo yet but the damage will still be visible when I do I hope. Can't believe that that one made it but the 'Golkoy' didn't apperently.

[Xerarch]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:59 AM, Xenon said:

@fr8train@UK_Palms

Everything from Corpus and south is loooong gone, Houston is nearly wiped out and I don't know how long Galveston can hold on. CIDP is not a good landscape plant for south Texas and it has nothing to do with cold. You would've seen more CIDP (or at least their dead trunks) in Houston and San Antonio in the 2000s when the disease hadn't totally wiped out everything yet. 

The CIDP at the Rim will be ok until they get 10-20 feet+ of trunk and become disease magnets (for some reason, young and palms just starting to trunk seem ok). Or somebody will neglect to sterilize their pruning shears....

Right,  No towering CIDP’s anywhere that I can find in Corpus, but there are still some good sized ones, this one is on the taller side of what I’ve been able to find. Maybe a couple others that are taller, but not that much. 

[Little Tex]

14 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Right,  No towering CIDP’s anywhere that I can find in Corpus, but there are still some good sized ones, this one is on the taller side of what I’ve been able to find. Maybe a couple others that are taller, but not that much. 

this ones in CORPUS? wow

[RJ]

There is always this silver Theo 

 

[fr8train]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:35 PM, RJ said:

There is always this silver Theo 

 

Wow. I'd love to get seeds of this. 

[mnorell]

I had terrible luck with P. theophrastii in the Deep South of the U.S. (Natchez, Mississippi)...I had two planted out, and they both died miserable deaths in the wet chill of winter there, with ultimate low temps maybe around -6/-7C (maybe 20F). I was glad they died, actually. I've never had a nastier, spinier, more dangerous and outright ugly palm than these awful, suckering brambles. I love date palms, but this one was not a good choice. I think it is best in very dry areas soaked in sun, and very far away from any human activity (I remember seeing attractive pictures of them in I think southern Turkey). They are incredibly dangerous things in close confines...and the specimens I had showed no attempt to grow up (rather than out). I remember that Robert Lee Riffle in one of his books described this as basically a LESS hardy variation on P. dactylifera. I for one agree.

[Arecaceus]

I have an update to what I posted above. Since I even had spear pull on small Trachycarpus fortunei the other day and Trachycarpus princeps as well (which are both bulletproof here), the spear pull on the P. theophrastii 'Golkoy' which made it mostly unharmed through a the severe freeze of February 2021 is not very indicative of anything. At least not compared to other hardy palms. My normal P. theophrastii still looks fine. I think the reason for so much damage this year is the cold blast in December 2022 just after a very warm November, followed by constant phases of very warm but wet winter weather, interrupted by freezes and then extreme warm ups again. I have damage on some of the hardiest plants I have this year so the damage on 'Golkoy' can't be compared to anything. Even that the normal P. theophrastii still looks good is no indicator, as other more tender (than T. foruntei for example) like B. odorata or P. canariensis also still look good.

[Jerrrod]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:14 PM, ahosey01 said:

I have a working theory about Phoenix acaulis but they're not common in cultivation because they're a b**** to trim and also they are generally unimpressive.  A 30 year old specimen looks like an overgrown P. roebelenii seedling that was grown in shade and still hasn't developed a trunk yet.  Apparently in native habitat they grow up to like 6000' or something -- I can't remember the statistic I heard.  Waiting for a once-in-a-century freeze around here to test my theory.

6000’, man that’s a big palm. I’ve got to get me one of those.😀😀

[COpalms]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:09 AM, jwitt said:

These CIDP survived -10f on back to back nights in Alamogordo, NM 2011.  Back to back nights of near zero(1f/3f) show near 100% survival in El Paso of the same species.

The -10f survivors

 

BRo which palm tree species is it I need to know lol 

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, COpalms said:

BRo which palm tree species is it I need to know lol 

He said CIDP, which means Canary Island Date Palm, Phoenix canariensis.  From your other threads it sounds like you're already on to this species

[COpalms]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:10 PM, Xerarch said:

He said CIDP, which means Canary Island Date Palm, Phoenix canariensis.  From your other threads it sounds like you're already on to this species

very musch so

[ryjohn]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:46 PM, Steve in Florida said:

CIDP often does not do well in North and North Central Florida.  I would have to spend hours citing what all I've seen over the years.  There are some scattered giants, planted in urban microclimates, that were likely planted from the 1880's to WW1,  but these are exceptional specimens.  Several years ago Panama City did not get above 28-29F during the day.  All trunking CIDP were scorched and had ugly dark brown and black leaves for two years.  Smaller ones were defoliated and removed when there was no new growth after 4-6 weeks.  Over the next 2-3 years it was decided that they were not suitable for the area and larger ones were removed from numerous public and private plantings.  My palms are in a rural, very low density area and actually shows up as a frost corridor on the better maps.  The coldest, still winter nights are about 5 degrees colder than nearby Mayo and Live Oak, which is over 20 miles to the north.   All my Phoenix palms were planted at a large 7 gallon to 15 gallon size and had no protection.  They were planted in an open field, and a single Phoenix sylvestris 'Robusta' was the only one to survive.  A few smaller CIDP in my area, likely planted in a warm microclimate, look like they are struggling until they can grow back enough leaves to look halfway decent in July or later.  Phoenix sylvestris' Robusta' is field grown about 45 miles north of me along with CIPD and 97-98% of the later is unsellable after 16F and wastes expensive fertilizer and labor.  Unlike CIDP, my Phoenix sylvestris "Robusta' is also super fast at replacing all damaged fronds and adding numerous, larger new ones each year.

Boy, Steve, my experience here in far north Louisiana mirrors yours almost exactly.  I bought several different California-grown 10-15 gallon Phoenix species and a purebred-looking (robust) Phoenix sylvestris was by far the best performing here.  The initial years after I moved here (2006 to 2017) were exceedingly mild and all the species put on massive size quickly.  Yet only the sylvestris could replace its crown and more in a single growing season while the canariensis and delactiferas struggled to recover fully from defoliation that occurred from even the high teens in those years.  So eventually when we started getting some harsher winters from 2018 to present (3 in or near single digits and at least one daytime high below freezing), the canariensis and delactiferas really were slow to recover.  The sylvestris marched on through the bad winters and put on at least 3’ of trunk each year until one cold snap I decided to protect it with mini Christmas lights and a wrap of thick fiberglass insulation.  Ironically it died unexpectedly that winter, I think because I wrapped too far below the bud and did not cut off any of the huge crown of fronds. At that point it had 25’ of clear trunk with a nice curve in it.  It looked like a palm grown much further in the south while my other phoenix species looked like palms that were tortured in zone 7/8 when they belonged in zone 9.  My nicest CIDP died unexpectedly in summer one year (looking very healthy with a fully green crown), when the trunk/crown just rotted and collapsed inward like a dying star.  What remains is one very sad CIDP in too much shade and one delactifera that keeps hanging on through suckering while the biggest trunks keep freezing out.  So while the Texas guys are right that CIDP is the hardiest, the corollary is that the hardiest does not necessarily mean the most suitable.