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Crownshafted palms get the shaft

DoomsDave

By DoomsDave
in DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE

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DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
Posted

We dote on our crownshafted palms, those of us fortunate enough to be able to grow them. Their “self-cleaning” qualities make them beloved by anyone who’s ever had to tidy up, say, a queen palm, and had to battle those &$@!! clinging boots to get them removed.

But they have problems too, it turns out.

One of them is when the crown gets hit hard by something, the entire “crown assembly” breaks off, killing the plant.


Like a wodetyia that was struck by a felled Livistona.

😢

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
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So, maybe discuss your situation, or ask any questions you may have!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

idontknowhatnametuse Mentor

idontknowhatnametuse

Posted
Posted

Sorry for your loss, a similar situation happened with an Adonidia I used to have and was struck by heavy winds in spring.

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Jim in Los Altos Grand Master

Jim in Los Altos

Posted
Posted

So sorry for your loss, Dave. :(

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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

JohnAndSancho Grand Master

JohnAndSancho

Posted
Posted

Oh man. That's rough. On a positive, could this be turned into 4 or 5 tiki sculptures? Someone on this forum has to be a Tiki making individual. 

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James B Veteran

James B

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Oh no! I’d be really upset to lose a Wodyetia over a Livistona.

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DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

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Thanks for the condolences @idontknowhatnametuse,@JohnAndSancho, @Chester Band @Jim in Los Altos! 
 

I’m bummed, but trust me, I’ve got lots of possibilities for replacements!

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

JohnAndSancho Grand Master

JohnAndSancho

Posted
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29 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks for the condolences @idontknowhatnametuse,@JohnAndSancho, @Chester Band @Jim in Los Altos! 
 

I’m bummed, but trust me, I’ve got lots of possibilities for replacements!

If anybody can figure this out, it's you. If we were closer I'd donate my Queen to the cause since I'm already gonna struggle trying to overwinter her. 

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DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
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18 minutes ago, JohnAndSancho said:

If anybody can figure this out, it's you. If we were closer I'd donate my Queen to the cause since I'm already gonna struggle trying to overwinter her. 

Awww hell thanks! Except I’d say no because I’ve got about five nice queens in fifteen gallons I’m trying to rehome myself!

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
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Okay, another tale of casualties…..

This is a picture of one of my oldest Chambeyronia macrocarpas that died this year, just the  upper tippy tip of the trunk.

I had planted it in may of 2003 from a 32 gallon garbage can, and it grew great, with super watermelon markings, it was gorgeous! By 2021 it was about 25 feet tall.

But, something happened to block the new spear and it busted out the side of the crownshaft, after which growth bud cracked off and the palm died. 😢

93603636-B738-4017-81A4-E50D6764F699.thumb.jpeg.f32c73aa8819c863f561f4a239819d36.jpeg8A0FF6C7-4B67-42AC-B23C-9F06735E5412.thumb.jpeg.2529d7bd27399f35540fd1cc5b895df4.jpeg

1D42E954-CF5E-4352-9375-9BBB54517355.jpeg

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

PalmatierMeg Grand Master

PalmatierMeg

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Crownshafted palms have a built-in point of weakness: the “seam” where the crownshaft attaches to the trunk. Strong winds, disease, insect attack will stress that point of attachment until it fails. Several of my palms broke in two where their crownshafts met their stems during Hurricane Ian. Archonotophoenix cunninghamiana seemed particularly prone to snapping. You lose the crownshaft, you lose the growing point/meristem, you lose the palm. Royals seemed to not have that problem. I think they evolved the knack of breaking away fronds where the petioles meet the crownshaft, which leaves survivors with pencil point crownshafts but removes tons of weight that add fatal weight. And royals grow so fast in SFL that they can restore their crowns within months of a storm.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

James B Veteran

James B

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How about your A.Maxima Meg?

Any difference vs Cunninghamiana?

James B Veteran

James B

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Dave, that’s terrible news! Sorry to see that happen to such specimen.

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PalmatierMeg Grand Master

PalmatierMeg

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7 minutes ago, James B said:

How about your A.Maxima Meg?

Any difference vs Cunninghamiana?

I lost 10-12 cunninghamianas to Ian - only one survived. I had all the other species and they survived, including maxima. My maxima stands in an exposed corner above the sea wall in the back yard without protection from the winds and survived. Why cunninghamiana is such a weenie I have no idea. Anybody?

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

James B Veteran

James B

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I lost 10-12 cunninghamianas to Ian - only one survived. I had all the other species and they survived, including maxima. My maxima stands in an exposed corner above the sea wall in the back yard without protection from the winds and survived. Why cunninghamiana is such a weenie I have no idea. Anybody?

That’s interesting but unfortunate to hear you lost so many palms! . I’m assuming your Maxima gets taller than Cunninghamiana as well correct? The more robust type of Cunninghamiana also gets a thicker crownshaft than what I’ve seen on Maximas in my yard and others. I wonder why such a difference in wind tolerance? I’d assume a thicker crownshaft would be an advantage? Maximas get a thicker trunk but I’ve seen some Cunninghamiana with huge trunks as well.

Palmfarmer Veteran

Palmfarmer

Posted
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Ot of curiosity. how does queens, Bismarcks and. Washies do during a hurricane 

what are some «Hurricane proof» palm trees? 

PalmatierMeg Grand Master

PalmatierMeg

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, James B said:

That’s interesting but unfortunate to hear you lost so many palms! . I’m assuming your Maxima gets taller than Cunninghamiana as well correct? The more robust type of Cunninghamiana also gets a thicker crownshaft than what I’ve seen on Maximas in my yard and others. I wonder why such a difference in wind tolerance? I’d assume a thicker crownshaft would be an advantage? Maximas get a thicker trunk but I’ve seen some Cunninghamiana with huge trunks as well.

My only cunninghamiana survivor is very robust and probably took wind better than gracile ones. My maxima is taller than all the piccabeens I had but the robust one. I’m not sure if larger crownshafts take winds better than thinner ones. By the time you get to cat 5 winds the point is moot. What might save many crownshafted palms is if  their fronds detached as easily as a royal’s. Species of Pseudophoenix also evolved with hurricane conditions but I don’t know what their secret is. I do know Pseudophoenix have a distinct rigidity compared to more “relaxed” species in other genera. You would think that rigidity would be detrimental in high winds but that seems not to be the case. Has anyone studied the Pseudophoenix genus with attention to what makes them so storm tough? Good thesis or dissertation project.

  • Like 1

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

James B Veteran

James B

Posted
Posted

Great point once you being Cat 4 or 5 winds into the equation.

PalmatierMeg Grand Master

PalmatierMeg

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Palmfarmer said:

Ot of curiosity. how does queens, Bismarcks and. Washies do during a hurricane 

what are some «Hurricane proof» palm trees? 

Queens and other Syagrus generally fare poorly in major hurricanes, S amara considered one of the least storm hardy palms in the world. Bizzies and Washies seem to handle low end hurricanes equally well. Anything over a weak cat 3 is a game of Russian roulette. By the time you get to Ian’s strength (cat 4/5) you have a potential catastrophe in store. My Washy survived cat 3/4 Charley for 90 minutes with only major frond damage (it succumbed to fusiarum wilt in 2015). Could it have survived 12-14 hours in Ian’s eyewalll? I really doubt it. I lost 4 of my 6 large Bizzies - the largest, of course. You don’t want 30’ Bizzies crashing down around your house. Trust me, you don’t want 30’ Bizzies crashing down in your yard at all. We did a more detailed inspection of our Garden Lot today. Between trees and Bizzies I’ve lost my Tahina, about half my Hemithrinax, my Copernicia prunifera, Sabal grethereae and Guatemalensis, numerous Coccothrinax, perhaps 3 of 4 Livistonas to all that crushing weight.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

PalmatierMeg Grand Master

PalmatierMeg

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, James B said:

Great point once you being Cat 4 or 5 winds into the equation.

Never forget the category.

As to palms not fazed by powerful wind storms - almost any palm native to Florida or the Caribbean: Sabals, Coccothrinax, Copernicia, Thrinax and kin, Roystoneas, Pseudophoenix. Also, Livistona decora (those rippling pinnae let the wind through), Allagoptera, possibly Gaussia, Serenoa reopens, Latania. I was really impressed how our 18’ Hyophorbe verschaffeltii weathered Ian, not a leaf out of place.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
  • Author
Posted
4 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I lost 10-12 cunninghamianas to Ian - only one survived. I had all the other species and they survived, including maxima. My maxima stands in an exposed corner above the sea wall in the back yard without protection from the winds and survived. Why cunninghamiana is such a weenie I have no idea. Anybody?

Ouch, sorry to hear. Glad you’re okay! 
 

Palms can be replaced.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

DoomsDave Grand Master

DoomsDave

Posted
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Posted

Other stories are sought and welcome!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Looking Glass Grand Master

Looking Glass

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 10/25/2022 at 4:01 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Species of Pseudophoenix also evolved with hurricane conditions but I don’t know what their secret is. I do know Pseudophoenix have a distinct rigidity compared to more “relaxed” species in other genera. You would think that rigidity would be detrimental in high winds but that seems not to be the case. Has anyone studied the Pseudophoenix genus with attention to what makes them so storm tough? Good thesis or dissertation project.

Three palms that I find similar in their petiole rigidity are Pseudophoenix Sargentii, Bottles and Spindles.  All of these are good hurricane survivors.   They tend to be stiff and somewhat short with stout trunks. They all have a somewhat open canopy, compared to other palms.  They all root in pretty solidly too.  

Pseudophoenix seems to absolutely cement itself to the ground at a young age.  It’s crazy to me how tight they grip the ground.  The leaflets flutter in the wind, but the petioles are super tuff and stiff.  Bottles and Spindles have stiffer leaflets but still seem to make out well.  

On 10/25/2022 at 3:16 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Ot of curiosity. how does queens, Bismarcks and. Washies do during a hurricane 

what are some «Hurricane proof» palm trees? 

Queens are documented to be perhaps the single worst common palm in hurricanes.   Washies perform poorly also based on their age/hight…. They are considered poor performers once they are tall…  they snap.  Bismarcks have been thought to be, as Meg describes, and perhaps this storm adds to the data/anecdotes bit….  Big sail-like leaves, stiff, tall, and not native to hurricane battered coastal areas. 

Bismarks grow great here, but Lantania loddigesii should be used instead, more often.   Hard to tell them apart sometimes.   

Edited by Looking Glass

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