New Cycad Planting

[ahosey01]

There is an area of my yard that just gets too much shade for most species of plants I grow here in AZ.  It is directly under a large ash tree.  Some portions of this area will get 5 hours of morning sun in the summer, while others get around 3.  One particular spot actually never gets direct sunlight.

Was thinking about purchasing some combination of the follow cycads (forgive the spelling if I get it wrong):

Ceratozamia hildae

Ceratozamia mexicana

Cycas debaoensis

Cycas panzihuaensis

Cycas taitungensis

Cycas guizhouensis

Macrozamia moorei

Macrozamia communi

Dioon edule

Can anyone tell if any of these has a particular high or low tolerance for desert sun and/or shade?

Thanks!

[BigFrond]

I don't know much about cycad.  However, my Dioon edule does not do well under 75% or more shade per day.  At some point, I will move it to a sunnier place, but I'm kind of lazy.

[Tracy]

5 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

There is an area of my yard that just gets too much shade for most species of plants I grow here in AZ.  It is directly under a large ash tree.  Some portions of this area will get 5 hours of morning sun in the summer, while others get around 3.  One particular spot actually never gets direct sunlight.

Was thinking about purchasing some combination of the follow cycads (forgive the spelling if I get it wrong):

Ceratozamia hildae

Ceratozamia mexicana

Cycas debaoensis

Cycas panzihuaensis

Cycas taitungensis

Cycas guizhouensis

Macrozamia moorei

Macrozamia communi

Dioon edule

Can anyone tell if any of these has a particular high or low tolerance for desert sun and/or shade?

Thanks!

The best advice will come from your fellow Arizona residents growing Cycads.  I would expect that your best bets are in the Dioon and Macrozamia families.  I don't know  how any of the Ceratozamia and Cycas would perform with the exception of expecting Cycas taitungensis to perform like Cycas revoluta under similar conditions.  I would consider expanding your list of Macrozamias to those growing in even drier and hotter conditions than moorei and commnunis, such as Macrozamia macdonnellii .   While it won't be as easy to find and more pricey, the liklihood of success and ability to give it more sun in the desert, as well as a far more novel planting would be worth it. 

51 minutes ago, BigFrond said:

my Dioon edule does not do well under 75% or more shade per day

While I'm not surprised that in San Marcos that your Dioon edule would appreciate more sun, the heat in the desert during the day is a different thing.  I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the desert thrive in significantly less sun than is needed in San Marcos and particularly where I am.  I have a couple of different forms of Dioon edule under a large Caryota gigas in Carlsbad, less than a mile from the beach that do fine and have been pushing out cones alternating with flushes for several years now.  They mostly get filtered light during mid-day and full sun only when the sun is low enough to sneak in below the Caryota in morning hours.

More important I hope some of AHosey01's fellow Arizona's chime in with advice.

[GeneAZ]

Dioon edule will take all the sun and heat we have in Maricopa county without complaint.  It also won't show any freeze damage even down to 23F.

Ceratozamia hildae will be happiest without any direct sun or maybe just 3 hours of morning sun in summer.  Mine don't show any frost effects to 26F.

My Macrozamia MacDonnellii does great in morning sun for 5 hours and no heat or frost complaints.  They are comparatively expensive.

 

 

[Merlyn]

I'm not sure about the others in Arizona's heat, I have:

• Ceratozamia hildae - partial sun with mostly mid-day
• Cycas debaoensis - 7 or 8 in the ground (some are clearly Multifrondis), ranging from full sun to about 75% shade.  In sun the leaflets are skinny and kinda boring, and tend towards more lime green even with fertilizing.
• Cycas panzihuaensis - full sun for non-hybrids, I have a couple of Panz x Deb hybrids (from TCHP & LivingCycads) in either full sun or PM shade and they are doing great
• Cycas taitungensis - seedlings only in 50-75% shade
• Cycas guizhouensis - 3pcs in full sun, one of them did ok in PM shade last year but didn't seem to care when the canopy disappeared
• Dioon Edule - 17 big ones in the ground, most are in full sun to 50% shade.  They grow with longer fronds in shade, but are otherwise normal.  They'll grow ok (but slowly) in pots in dense shade here in Florida.  They are the Honey Badger of cycads...they just don't care where they are planted as long as it's not in a swamp.

[tiburcio]

16 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

Dioon edule will take all the sun and heat we have in Maricopa county without complaint.  It also won't show any freeze damage even down to 23F.

Ceratozamia hildae will be happiest without any direct sun or maybe just 3 hours of morning sun in summer.  Mine don't show any frost effects to 26F.

My Macrozamia MacDonnellii does great in morning sun for 5 hours and no heat or frost complaints.  They are comparatively expensive.

 

 

the mcdonnellii can handle full sun in maricopa county? or do they suffer?

[GeneAZ]

For MacDonnellii, I have not tried in full dawn-to-dark sun year round in Scottsdale.  They're just too hard to find a replacement, if the sun and heat fatally damage one.  So my plant gets only morning through about 1pm full sun and heat year round.  Doesn't mind hot air or cold extremes.  I am careful not to let sun hit the pot because hot roots equals death at our extremes in July, August and September.  I do have only  --

-- a small number of cycads that will take all-day  full sun and heat here without complaint.

[tiburcio]

1 hour ago, GeneAZ said:

For MacDonnellii, I have not tried in full dawn-to-dark sun year round in Scottsdale.  They're just too hard to find a replacement, if the sun and heat fatally damage one.  So my plant gets only morning through about 1pm full sun and heat year round.  Doesn't mind hot air or cold extremes.  I am careful not to let sun hit the pot because hot roots equals death at our extremes in July, August and September.  I do have only  --

-- a small number of cycads that will take all-day  full sun and heat here without complaint.

that´s a winner for sure right there. so in its native habitat it isnt´t as hot as arizona? seeing pictures of down there it seemed very hot and dry by just looking the shrubbery and lack of trees, just a few one similar to prosopis if at all if I remember correctly, etc

[GeneAZ]

If you wanted to put one in the ground, it would probably be very happy, if you could get super good drainage like on a 2-foot hill and a lot of DG worked into it.  If the roots are not in a container, there's a lot less problems.  In habitat, the MacDonnelliis are surrounded by lots of rock, so the heat is intensified and reflected to the plants, but they seem adapted to it.  I know Cycas cairnsiana grows perfectly fine here in full sun at Rod Anderson's home in open ground.

[amh]

@ahosey01Have you considered any other Dioon species? Dioon califanoi has a nice blue color and seems to like the sun and heat. My experience is that it grow as fast as Dioon edule 'palma sola'.

[tiburcio]

2 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

If you wanted to put one in the ground, it would probably be very happy, if you could get super good drainage like on a 2-foot hill and a lot of DG worked into it.  If the roots are not in a container, there's a lot less problems.  In habitat, the MacDonnelliis are surrounded by lots of rock, so the heat is intensified and reflected to the plants, but they seem adapted to it.  I know Cycas cairnsiana grows perfectly fine here in full sun at Rod Anderson's home in open ground.

doh´, I just remembered Arizona sees winter rains !! forgot completely about it. indeed those rocks around th mc´s must be at boiling temps during most of the year and not bothered at all by them. lovely plant

[Meangreen94z]

I’ve been told Dioon and some of the Australian Cycas, especially blue species do well in the Phoenix area exposed to most day sun. Macrozamia outside of maybe macdonnellii don’t do well.  The species you have might do ok in most day shade. The Dioon Edule should be fine regardless.

[mnorell]

I used to grow Ceratozamia mexicana and C. latifolia in Natchez, Mississippi (chilly 9a) and they are incredibly durable and beautiful plants. I had mine in dappled shade under a live oak and though they were slow growers, the leaves are incredibly tropical-looking and beautiful in coloration and form, and they weren't bothered by low 20s under such circumstances. Defoliated at 13F in 2018 but were back the next spring. I just don't know how well they'd do in hot sun...but shade or semi-shade should be perfect for them.

[amh]

I have found that both Ceratozamia hildae and Cycas debaoensis will need afternoon sun protection and that Ceratozamia hildae has no trouble growing under full tree canopy.

The more glaucus cycad species seem to handle the sun better than the traditional green types, but I have higher humidity and lower temperatures than Arizona.

[Billeb]

Just planted out a Encephalartos Longifolius today. Caudex is a little less than 3”. Love the shape of these things when they get bigger. 
 

-dale 

[amh]

37 minutes ago, Billeb said:

Just planted out a Encephalartos Longifolius today. Caudex is a little less than 3”. Love the shape of these things when they get bigger. 
 

-dale 

I wish the Encephalartos genus was cold hardy. I love the cold hardy Zamia and Cycas species, but pictures of the Modjadji cycad forest are what really made me get into cycads.

[Billeb]

Got another in the ground today. Encephalartos Aemulans x Lehmannii. I’ve never seen a mature one but love Lehmannii so I’m hoping it turns out looking good. Caudex is 4”. 

The vision is for the Chambeyronia Hookeri to shoot up and the Encephalartos to be more of a low height filler. The bromeliad will get ripped out if it gets too cluttered. 

-dale 

 

 

 

[Tracy]

12 hours ago, Billeb said:

C hookeri

DALE, the one to the right should be fine but you have another palm between the new cycad and the sidewalk which is going to be too close in my experience.  Will be interesting to see if this shows any blue as it matures.   

The longifolius you will definitely appreciate. Hopefully it will be a good, fast growing specimen.  My largest has been very fast to gain size but I have experienced slow and medium growth on the other two.

[Tracy]

16 hours ago, amh said:

I wish the Encephalartos genus was cold hardy. I love the cold hardy Zamia and Cycas species, but pictures of the Modjadji cycad forest are what really made me get into cycads.

Adam, hopefully you got an Encephalartos horridus to try.  I think in one of your gardens more protected spots it would do fine. 

[Billeb]

2 hours ago, Tracy said:

DALE, the one to the right should be fine but you have another palm between the new cycad and the sidewalk which is going to be too close in my experience.  Will be interesting to see if this shows any blue as it matures.  

Understood and I totally thought about that. It is a bit deceiving. They are actually the same distance apart. I’ve seen a mature Enc. Aemulans and Lehmannii but never a mature hybrid.  Hopefully it takes more of the Lehmannii traits and stays a bit smaller and possesses some blue hues. 
 

2 hours ago, Tracy said:

The longifolius you will definitely appreciate. Hopefully it will be a good, fast growing specimen.  My largest has been very fast to gain size but I have experienced slow and medium growth on the other two.

I love Longifolius and have wanted one for awhile. Crossing fingers it’s a robust / fast grower. I’ll check yours out this weekend! 👌
 

-dale 

[tiburcio]

3 hours ago, Tracy said:

Adam, hopefully you got an Encephalartos horridus to try.  I think in one of your gardens more protected spots it would do fine. 

how finicky blue encephalartos are in san diego? it rains during the cold weather!! I remember seeing a large encephalartos not sure which one, perhaps friedericii guillelmii wrong spelling, in the quail botanical garden back in 2019, it was a fairly sized specimen near the little offices by the cascade, and saying gosh poor thing, so many years down the drain!!

[Tracy]

3 hours ago, tiburcio said:

how finicky blue encephalartos are in san diego? it rains during the cold weather!! I remember seeing a large encephalartos not sure which one, perhaps friedericii guillelmii wrong spelling, in the quail botanical garden back in 2019, it was a fairly sized specimen near the little offices by the cascade, and saying gosh poor thing, so many years down the drain!!

Quail Botanical (renamed San Diego Botanic Garden) is just a couple of miles south and about half a mile east from where I live, a couple of canyon's further inland from me so warmer during the hottest days.  While some of their blue's up on the hill are a little ragged looking, not all are.  I have no problems with the Cape blue species in my garden, they aren't finicky at all.  A couple of examples below.  Pictured are an Encephalartos princeps and what I believe is an Encephalartos blue arenarius hybrid with horridus based on the cone it produces.

[Tracy]

7 hours ago, Tracy said:

Adam, hopefully you got an Encephalartos horridus to try.  I think in one of your gardens more protected spots it would do fine. 

 

 

On 11/15/2022 at 1:45 PM, amh said:

I wish the Encephalartos genus was cold hardy. I love the cold hardy Zamia and Cycas species, but pictures of the Modjadji cycad forest are what really made me get into cycads.

oops... sorry, I had a mis identification.  I thought you were someone else when using the app on my phone.... my comments don't apply to your location, as I'm pretty ignorant of conditions in the Texas hill country.  My apologies.

[amh]

52 minutes ago, Tracy said:

 

 

oops... sorry, I had a mis identification.  I thought you were someone else when using the app on my phone.... my comments don't apply to your location, as I'm pretty ignorant of conditions in the Texas hill country.  My apologies.

No worries, everywhere has its own climate and micro climates. I'm on the warm end of 8A in a dryer area, but I can have PNW like conditions in the spring and fall.

I have a few encephalartos, but they are a bit prickly for the indoors, although I think Dioon califanoi will be more of a blood letter. 

[tiburcio]

3 hours ago, Tracy said:

Quail Botanical (renamed San Diego Botanic Garden) is just a couple of miles south and about half a mile east from where I live, a couple of canyon's further inland from me so warmer during the hottest days.  While some of their blue's up on the hill are a little ragged looking, not all are.  I have no problems with the Cape blue species in my garden, they aren't finicky at all.  A couple of examples below.  Pictured are an Encephalartos princeps and what I believe is an Encephalartos blue arenarius hybrid with horridus based on the cone it produces.

those look terrific but... do you fertilize in the winter time or in the summer??

[Tracy]

38 minutes ago, tiburcio said:

those look terrific but... do you fertilize in the winter time or in the summer??

Same schedule as my palms for fertilizing, in a good year I try to do it early spring, mid-summer and beginning of autumn with a slow release.  This year, was early spring and early side of summer.  I missed the window for autumn.

[tiburcio]

6 hours ago, Tracy said:

Quail Botanical (renamed San Diego Botanic Garden) is just a couple of miles south and about half a mile east from where I live, a couple of canyon's further inland from me so warmer during the hottest days.  While some of their blue's up on the hill are a little ragged looking, not all are.  I have no problems with the Cape blue species in my garden, they aren't finicky at all.  A couple of examples below.  Pictured are an Encephalartos princeps and what I believe is an Encephalartos blue arenarius hybrid with horridus based on the cone it produces.

that princeps is crazy. very beautiful plant. perfection

oh, i see. a regular fert schedule you got.  wasn´t sure how you soucal people did it

[Coasta]

I know this is an old post but thought I would still chime in. From what I understand, no encephalartos will do good here unless they are under shade cloth.  Australian blue cycas like cairnsiana, cupida,couttsiana etc can take full sun if in ground. In containers all, its recommended to have some sort of shade cloth for them. Rod Anderson has a nice inventory for sale I believe. I have tried macrozamia macdonnellii in the ground and it didn't do well. I have been told by other more tenured growers that for some reason macdonnellii does not do well here. Goodluck with your cycads!