Dypsis Leptocheilos overwatered or deficiency?

[Yard Gnome]

Hi Everyone,

I’m new to the site and was hoping to get some help with my Teddy Bear palm. I live in FL and planted it about 18 mos ago in a full-sun area of my yard. It was doing well up until about 5 mos ago when I noticed what looked like a potassium or iron deficiency, or perhaps too much sun (we had a hot summer). I have fertilized with palm fertilizer on a quarterly schedule and recently placed slow release potassium spikes (2 weeks ago). I am now considering an overwatered situation since it does sit in a small depression in my yard, but we do have very sandy soil and there is no obvious pooling. The other palms in my yard seem to be doing well, although I do have a chambeyronia that is on the same side of the yard that doe have the “burnt fronds”. If anyone has a diagnosis or any suggestions I would appreciate it. Thanks. 

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Could be Iron, Potassium or Magnesium Deficiency

[idontknowhatnametuse]

I also notice it has some chlorosis

[TomJ]

IF it were here in California I would say too much exposure to quickly, especially if it were coming straight from a greenhouse.

Here in Vista they can grow into full sun, but are very tender/finicky at that size.

Florida and Vista are very different.  Advice from local growers will probably be more useful.

[Looking Glass]

Not sure where in Florida you are?  But around here, I know of two non-palm people who grow these in their yards with no special care, and they look huge and amazing.  

I got these 3g in March 2021, and planted them in full sun May 2021….

 

Here they are November 2022…..  

They get shade briefly from 9:30-11:30am, and take full, brutal evening summer sun til sunset.  

During the hot summer, I water them every other day now, and used to soak them daily during hot weather for the first year.  I don’t think you can over water them in fast draining soil and heavy sun.  They grow quickly under these conditions.  I kept them very wet the first year.  

They need a lot of potassium also.  They very easily get necrotic lower leaves and yellowing without extra around here.  A cup of langbeinite every other month or so.   If that doesn’t correct the problem over time, use potash the same way or both.   I do this in between Treesaver or Palmgain hits.  Don’t use BB store palm fertilizer on these.  

Yours looks like it needs critical care right now.   Keep in mind that the root zone might be just the size of the original pot if it was recently planted.  Direct your efforts over the root zone.   

I’d hit it with a cup of langbeinite scattered around but up to an inch from the trunk right now.  I’d also go nuclear and give it a hit of the garden “Miracle Grow All-Purpose” or “Tomato” crystals (1 tablespoon) in a watering can.  I’d hit it again with potassium in a month.   Try keeping the soil moist all the time.  Water it directly over the root zone a lot.  Maybe every other day with a watering can right now for a bit, depending on your soil.  

This time of year, I don’t need to use as much water, but come late February it will start to get hot and dry here and they like a lot of water until fall.   I notice no major differences with EDDHA iron applications here, but it might not hurt to give them a hit if yellow like that.   That MG All-Purpose has iron anyways.  If it was a different palm, I’d be more focused on iron, but these are potassium hogs.  

Don’t used fertilizer spikes, especially in sandy soil.   

You Chambeyronia looks too dry, and is likely getting fried by the sun.  They can’t handle much direct sun in Florida, especially when young, while Leptos can take a lot, even when young.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by Looking Glass

[Yard Gnome]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I will get some potassium to it as I suspect that may be part of the issue, and be sure to up the watering. It did well through the spring this year and really started to go downhill this summer so it may just be getting stressed by the sun. I got it from a friend that had it in partial shade and may have rushed putting it in the ground, especially on the south side of my house. I live in Palm City, FL, so temperate zone shouldn’t be an issue. 

[Looking Glass]

2 minutes ago, Yard Gnome said:

Thanks everyone for the advice. I will get some potassium to it as I suspect that may be part of the issue, and be sure to up the watering. It did well through the spring this year and really started to go downhill this summer so it may just be getting stressed by the sun. I got it from a friend that had it in partial shade and may have rushed putting it in the ground, especially on the south side of my house. I live in Palm City, FL, so temperate zone shouldn’t be an issue. 

The summer was brutal this year in SE Florida.  Very little rain or cloud cover, with summer heat.  It was like the wet season never came.  Was rough on a lot of palms.   I needed to water a lot.  

[sonoranfans]

I see Mg deficiency on older leaves and iron deficiency on newer ones,  I thihk you may be overwatering adn this would be what it looks like.  Teddies dont like being constantly wet the root zone and are prone to Fe, Mg deficiency.  IN summer they do fine in the wet and we did have a wet summer here in tampa area.  Too much wet can cause these deficiencies in low drainage soil.  Tell us where you are on florida how much rain you have had and whether you know if your soil pH is alkaline(causes iron deficiency).  While SE FL has been dry here it has rained very heavily.

[Tyrone]

I doubt that it’s being overwatered in your climate and on sandy soil. These can take tons of water in my experience. I see it deficient in virtually everything. I’d be giving it a complete fertiliser with all trace elements. To kick it along I’d be drenching it in a fish and seaweed emulsion because it needs nutrients now and not tomorrow. Some slow release stuff is just too slow. Most of the leaves will not recover, but some will partially recover. You need it to be putting out strong spears without deficiencies. Then in time it will replace those leaves and look good. 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I see Mg deficiency on older leaves and iron deficiency on newer ones,  I thihk you may be overwatering adn this would be what it looks like.  Teddies dont like being constantly wet the root zone and are prone to Fe, Mg deficiency.  IN summer they do fine in the wet and we did have a wet summer here in tampa area.  Too much wet can cause these deficiencies in low drainage soil.  Tell us where you are on florida how much rain you have had and whether you know if your soil pH is alkaline(causes iron deficiency).  While SE FL has been dry here it has rained very heavily.

When I first got these, I read every thread on here going back to 2007, about them.  A few folks mentioned that the scorched brown leaflet edges and the yellowing was from potassium deficiency.   A bunch of people mentioned that they like it on the wet side.   It’s weird, because normally you’d glance at it and think iron deficiency from sogginess, or nitrogen right away, I agree.  But it seems to check out.  I overdo a lot, and can get into trouble, but not with these.  I’ve been able to make the scorching and yellowing go away with tons of K.   

It’s strange, because it looks differently than it does on other palms.  But it seems to check out.  I can water mine as much as the Satakentias, and they just keep double spiking.  (While I’ve pulled the same stunt on Carlsmithii and B Alfredii and caused the iron problems you mention).  The Teddies don’t seem to respond to iron for me either.  Other palms get a deep green after a hit of iron.   

I’ve noticed that almost all of these in pics, show some degree of potassium deficiency, no matter where they are.   I think they are heavy feeders overall also.  I don’t think many people consider it as the problem.  

I think the OP is a little north of West Palm Beach, on my side here.   Not sure how they faired up there this summer.  Not sure if the soil is sandy there, like mine.  

Maybe some Aussies could weigh in too, as they seem to grow a lot of these.   

[sonoranfans]

32 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

When I first got these, I read every thread on here going back to 2007, about them.  A few folks mentioned that the scorched brown leaflet edges and the yellowing was from potassium deficiency.   A bunch of people mentioned that they like it on the wet side.   It’s weird, because normally you’d glance at it and think iron deficiency from sogginess, or nitrogen right away, I agree.  But it seems to check out.  I overdo a lot, and can get into trouble, but not with these.  I’ve been able to make the scorching and yellowing go away with tons of K.   

It’s strange, because it looks differently than it does on other palms.  But it seems to check out.  I can water mine as much as the Satakentias, and they just keep double spiking.  (While I’ve pulled the same stunt on Carlsmithii and B Alfredii and caused the iron problems you mention).  The Teddies don’t seem to respond to iron for me either.  Other palms get a deep green after a hit of iron.   

I’ve noticed that almost all of these in pics, show some degree of potassium deficiency, no matter where they are.   I think they are heavy feeders overall also.  I don’t think many people consider it as the problem.  

I think the OP is a little north of West Palm Beach, on my side here.   Not sure how they faired up there this summer.  Not sure if the soil is sandy there, like mine.  

Maybe some Aussies could weigh in too, as they seem to grow a lot of these.   

Yes I agree the key is soil and what that depressed spot is like.  My yard is mostly sandy but not in low spots in the drainage path where it is more clay.   My teddy(9' trunk) always seems to have the blotchy discoloration but not the even yellowing of leaves like this one.  A few of my (6) teddies in pots went a little yellow and always had the blotchiness.  After repotting with lighter soil and feeding with florkan 6 months ago fhey are vibrant green and no signs of deficiencies except a tad of dry tip on oldest leaves from me not paying attention and keeping them moist.  I agree that in sand you want overwater, but that palm doesnt look like a sand planted palm to me.  I have mostly found Fe deficiencies to be soil/moisture related, not fertilizer if you go every 3 momonths with a palm fertilizer.  Most palms are K deficient in florida our rain ensures that, but K deficiency is classically leaf tip in with a blotchy deficiency since K is fixed in the cellular structure.  I also get leaf tip browning from inconsistent dry cycle, too dry too long at times due to negligence.  The smooth yellowing on older leaves looks more like Mg which is mobile in the leaf so it can equilibrate.  Probably both Mg and K are deficient and Fe shows ont he new leaves so it is deficient.   If the soil is high drainage sand, better get some cation exchange capacity and a better controlled release fertilizer.  By the way spikes dont work well in sandy soil as the horizontal capillary action is not significant to even spread of the K int he soil.  In clay soil spikes work fine.

[Tyrone]

I agree that these are heavy feeders and need lots of potassium outside of the tropics that have low humidity and high winds. In my experience they can not be overwatered on sand. I reckon they like slightly acidic soil, so if your pH is high, above 8, I think you will run into problems without tons of amendments. I grew them well in my sandy Perth garden with a ph of 6.5. Down here on the south coast is not the best climate for them but my one and only one is planted in clay peat and did not die when we flooded last year. That flood killed outright my Roystonea borinquena, and Roystonea are almost aquatic. 

[sonoranfans]

The soil may have limestone underneath and be alkaline, that could cause FE deficiency.  https://fairchildgarden.org/science-and-education/diy/gardening-how-tos/soils-media/

 would put down chelated iron right away and see if you get a response.  I would also dig the soil to see if there is any muck.  "South Florida soil consists of rock, sand, marl and muck. "

[sonoranfans]

potassium deficiency on my teddies looked more like this with some bronzing, not smooth lemon yellow like Fe or Mg, as it advances there would be more and more necrosis*brown) in the blotching yellow areas

 

[Looking Glass]

In the Teddies I see, they usually display the classic leaf tip necrosis much earlier than other palms.  I don’t get any yellow spotting really.  I get that early stage yellow spotting in every other palm though.   The OP has the classic large area of leaf edge necrosis on every old leaf but the newest.   I think this manifests readily in heavy sun conditions.  

 

Magnesium deficiency doesn't cause necrosis, and iron will in very late stages, and by then the new leaves and bud will be dying, not the old.  The iron question could be most easily solved and temporarily treated with a hit of foliar iron, followed by EDDHA drench.  

Supplementing magnesium alone would be harmful, but langbeinite would give plenty of both K and Mg.  

I don’t get any iron problems on mine in alkaline sand, and they don’t get greener with EDDHA iron hits for me.  But a hit won’t hurt, as antagonistic Manganese deficiency would be showing on the newest leaves, not the old.  

I think that Teddies get leaf edge necrosis (like fig 3 below) even more readily than Phoenix-family palms, which get it quite easily around here.  Every other mature non-native palm in my neighborhood has its oldest leaves spotted (like figure 2), showing the “no spotting” appearance.  

 

The marl/muck base is in the neighborhoods “out west” toward the Everglades, on this side of the state, while as you go toward the ocean, it becomes more sand.   The limestone becomes predominate as you go south into Miami-Dade and decreases in frequency as you head north.  

[sonoranfans]

I still suspect Fe deficiency as that causes leaf tip necrosis as well.  

14 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

In the Teddies I see, they usually display the classic leaf tip necrosis much earlier than other palms.  I don’t get any yellow spotting really.  I get that early stage yellow spotting in every other palm though.   The OP has the classic large area of leaf edge necrosis on every old leaf but the newest.   I think this manifests readily in heavy sun conditions.  

 

Magnesium deficiency doesn't cause necrosis, and iron will in very late stages, and by then the new leaves and bud will be dying, not the old.  The iron question could be most easily solved and temporarily treated with a hit of foliar iron, followed by EDDHA drench.  

Supplementing magnesium alone would be harmful, but langbeinite would give plenty of both K and Mg.  

I don’t get any iron problems on mine in alkaline sand, and they don’t get greener with EDDHA iron hits for me.  But a hit won’t hurt, as antagonistic Manganese deficiency would be showing on the newest leaves, not the old.  

I think that Teddies get leaf edge necrosis (like fig 3 below) even more readily than Phoenix-family palms, which get it quite easily around here.  Every other mature non-native palm in my neighborhood has its oldest leaves spotted (like figure 2), showing the “no spotting” appearance.  

 

The marl/muck base is in the neighborhoods “out west” toward the Everglades, on this side of the state, while as you go toward the ocean, it becomes more sand.   The limestone becomes predominate as you go south into Miami-Dade and decreases in frequency as you head north.  

I still suspect Fe deficiency as that causes leaf tip necrosis as well.   And you folks down in miami have that high pH alkaline water and soil that causes Fe deficiency.  I rarely get Fe deficiency here, only a beccariophoenix windows palm was obviously Fe deficient(lemon yellow) in 12 years, so perhaps I see the K deficiency and its spotting more clearly on my teddies.  Seeing combined deficiencies can be difficult to interpret.  The whole plant being a solid yellow, necrotic tips or not says Fe at the minimum and probably K, Mg to me.  Check water/soil pH, Fe deficiency starts at about pH=7.5

[sonoranfans]

https://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheet/palm-diseases-nutritional-problems/#:~:text=As the iron deficiency becomes,in palms planted too deeply.

Iron (Fe) Deficiency: Iron deficiency is primarily a cosmetic problem. Palms usually survive but will exhibit interveinal or general chlorosis on the newest leaves. Interveinal chlorosis is basically green veins surrounded by yellow tissue, and this is usually seen on the newest leaves first. As the iron deficiency becomes more severe, new leaves will show extensive tip necrosis, and there will be a reduction in leaf size. Iron deficiency in palms is usually induced in palms growing on poorly aerated soils (compacted or over-watered) or in palms planted too deeply. Iron deficiency may occur in palms with a damaged or inadequate root system which leaves the plant unable to take up sufficient nutrients from the soil. This deficiency is much less often caused by a lack of iron in the soil or by high pH soils.

[Looking Glass]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

https://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheet/palm-diseases-nutritional-problems/#:~:text=As the iron deficiency becomes,in palms planted too deeply.

Iron (Fe) Deficiency: Iron deficiency is primarily a cosmetic problem. Palms usually survive but will exhibit interveinal or general chlorosis on the newest leaves. Interveinal chlorosis is basically green veins surrounded by yellow tissue, and this is usually seen on the newest leaves first. As the iron deficiency becomes more severe, new leaves will show extensive tip necrosis, and there will be a reduction in leaf size. Iron deficiency in palms is usually induced in palms growing on poorly aerated soils (compacted or over-watered) or in palms planted too deeply. Iron deficiency may occur in palms with a damaged or inadequate root system which leaves the plant unable to take up sufficient nutrients from the soil. This deficiency is much less often caused by a lack of iron in the soil or by high pH soils.

I hear ya.  Iron can be an issue my way for sure, especially for acid loving palms.   Could be for that one too.  But it’s a new leaf vs old leaf differentiation.   Iron should show new leaf necrosis when really severe.  Potassium should show old leaf necrosis.  

Iron deficiency will definitely bleach out a palm from the top down.  I still can’t get my Carlsmithii completely out of it, while the Alfi corrected quickly.  

I do love me some iron.  When I break it out, I’ll give many palms a splash.  Even Cuban coccothriax turn a really deep green when they get some.  And my Pseudophoenix seem to get bluer.  And those palms can suck the iron out of limestone rock.   

I do love me some @sonoranfans point of view too.  You’ve helped me quite a bit as I’ve fumbled through the palm world.   Always appreciate your input, experience, and solid advice.   We think alike most days.  I keep a mini-chemistry set in the garage in your honor…

I’m going to consider this iron theory of yours further, and play around with it a bit.   Potassium is my nemesis here, with iron a close second.  

There are very nice adult double Teddies two doors down from me.  They get blasted by the lawn care company’s Nitrogen and Potassium treatments, and probably get no additional iron or palm fertilizer, and they look good.   I’m going to ask the neighbor about those beauties. 

 

[Arturo Boston]

I’m growing mine is full sun and heavy clay in Puerto Rico with plenty of sun, heat, and humidity.   They seem to love heavy clay as it is growing rapidly and very very dark green.   They don’t mind being wet as we have gotten tons of rain and the clay barely drains.    I agree with everyone sandy soils lack nutrients especially the minors.   

[sonoranfans]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:46 PM, Looking Glass said:

I hear ya.  Iron can be an issue my way for sure, especially for acid loving palms.   Could be for that one too.  But it’s a new leaf vs old leaf differentiation.   Iron should show new leaf necrosis when really severe.  Potassium should show old leaf necrosis.  

Iron deficiency will definitely bleach out a palm from the top down.  I still can’t get my Carlsmithii completely out of it, while the Alfi corrected quickly.  

I do love me some iron.  When I break it out, I’ll give many palms a splash.  Even Cuban coccothriax turn a really deep green when they get some.  And my Pseudophoenix seem to get bluer.  And those palms can suck the iron out of limestone rock.   

I do love me some @sonoranfans point of view too.  You’ve helped me quite a bit as I’ve fumbled through the palm world.   Always appreciate your input, experience, and solid advice.   We think alike most days.  I keep a mini-chemistry set in the garage in your honor…

I’m going to consider this iron theory of yours further, and play around with it a bit.   Potassium is my nemesis here, with iron a close second.  

There are very nice adult double Teddies two doors down from me.  They get blasted by the lawn care company’s Nitrogen and Potassium treatments, and probably get no additional iron or palm fertilizer, and they look good.   I’m going to ask the neighbor about those beauties. 

 

Glad to hear that I may have helped.  The blotchiness in green/yellow in your photo is potassium deficiency and it can happen on leaves at mid crown(not the newest but not limited to the the oldest).  Potassium rinses from the soil first as its the most soluble micro in water.   Fe and Mg do not manifest as blotchiness as they are not fixed in the leaf.  We have a lot of K deficiency in florida.  You can also have Fe deficiency in higher pH soiol/water but chelated iron can help there.  My teddy used to get potassium deficiency a lot but as the roots grew in and the mulch penetrated the soil it seems to have lessened a lot.  Some palms are more dependent on soil pH than others and some like cuban copernicias are potassium hogs.   Every year I take some langbeinite(0-0-22) or muriate of potash(3x cheaper per gram of potassium at 0-0-60) and broadcast it around the yard near my palms.  I do not see Iron deficiency problems in my palms as I use florikan controlled release palm fertilizer and my soil pH is slightly acid so I dont need chelated iron.  After 24 years of growing palms first 10 years in the desert and then in humid subtropical florida I am still learning.