Best Canopy Palms For A Young Central Florida Garden

[D. Morrowii]

So most of my limited “canopy” blew down during Nicole. Not many of my banana guards were able to take the wind, I’m down to my last papaya and I lost 1/2 of a P. elegans duo that was giving some mid day relief to a couple little guys in my front yard. I’ll probably still use bananas in the meantime but I need to get some canopy going! I have a couple of A. tuckeri about 3-4’ tall and a couple Veitchias 6-8’ tall started for now in a couple spots. I still have 3-4 other areas that I’d like to put a central canopy single or group of palms into. 
 

What qualities do you think they should have?

1. Fast growing.
2. leafy I guess? To provide shade. 
3. 9B-10a hardy. 
4. Not too trunky?

Would love to hear some suggestions on species. Crazy outside the box ideas will be considered! 🤪

[waykoolplantz]

reach out to Kinzyjr and join central fla palm society

jeremy has a good handle on the temps and what will grow where you are

[D. Morrowii]

31 minutes ago, waykoolplantz said:

reach out to Kinzyjr and join central fla palm society

jeremy has a good handle on the temps and what will grow where you are

Been a member of CFPACS for over a year 😉. 
My question isn't as related to hardiness as it is to cover. It seems like Archontophoenix is brought up a lot for this purpose but I’m hearing they might not be very “wind hardy” and I’ve already got 2 in the ground. Veitchias are fast but kind of sparse for cover. S. amara might work but I don't know how fast they get tall. I was even thinking a cohune or maybe a B. fenestralis or allfredii might work well? I’m hoping that some others had grown up some unusual cover palms around here. Or maybe this is a dumb question lol

[Merlyn]

@D. MorrowiiI wouldn't do Cohune or any of the Attalea species for a quick canopy.  They all tend to grow in a very "shuttlecock" shaped form, and are pretty slow growers.  In Merritt Island they should be hardy and would be a good addition to your lot...just not for quick canopy.  The same probably goes for most Arenga species like Arenga Pinnata.

Alfredii isn't a good choice for hurricane-prone areas.  Meg lost all of hers to Ian and previous hurricanes, and even here on my lot 4 out of 5 had severe leans (over 30 degrees) from just tropical storm force winds.  I had to stake and tie them back up several times.  When they are young the bases aren't too stable and they have a huge crown of bigger-than-coconut fronds.

You could consider generic cut-them-down-later varieties to serve a purpose.  It depends on if you want something that would *stay* for permanent canopy, or something that is more temporary for a couple of years.  For "temporary" canopy you could pick anything like Queens, Foxtails, or Chinese.  Queens are really fast to get to 10-15' with a decently broad canopy.  I have a couple on the West side went from 10' overall to that are over the top of the 25' roof in only 4 years.  I use these for canopy in my "nursery" area.  I figure that I can just cut them down later when other stuff grows up and is full sun capable.  Livistona Chinensis with a couple of feet of trunk will throw a good diameter canopy and not get 30' tall too fast.  Foxtails are ok for shade if planted 6-10 feet apart.  Bismarck throw a decent canopy too, but the fans aren't always held horizontal like Chinensis.  Neither are super-awesome at hurricanes, to say the least.

Maybe Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum would work?  They all got torched here at 24-28F, and I only have one survivor out of 8 smaller palms.  But if you are over 30F they might be a good choice.

[D. Morrowii]

@MerlynThanks much for the suggestions. I think I’m looking at permanent palms in all but one spot. I think D album could do the job but I’m not sure on the speed. I know the seedlings I have seem pretty slow. Maybe if I can pick up a larger one for a head start. 

[PalmatierMeg]

I agree about Attaleas. I lost 3 (butyracea x2 & cohune) to Ian. Jury is still out on phalerata. The Livistona I suggest you plant is decora. Four of my five survived Ian. Those "ribbon" leaves let wind pass through them. I found decora to be fast growing and well suited to FL. I've tried numerous Livistona sp and decora tops them all. Kentiopsis oliviformis - or is it Chambeyronia now? - is also a good choice. Both of mine survived Irma & Ian with just some lean. Not rocket growers but not glacially slow.

[Merlyn]

There's probably a lot of Dypsis/Chrysolidacarpus that are fast growing and hardy enough for your spot.  Pembana, Cabadae, Lanceolata, Leptocheilos, Onilahensis, Madagascariensis, Lastelliana, Rosea, and maybe some others.  There are a bunch of those bigger Dypsis that I can't grow here due to yearly lows in the upper 20s.  You could probably also grow Pinanaga Coronata and Hyophorbe Indica.  Some of those aren't really "big" for shade either, but ones like Leptocheilos and Lastelliana are pretty big. 

@PalmatierMegsorry to hear about the Attaleas.    It was yours and the Leu Gardens ones that convinced me I need to try them here.  I've got Brejinhoensis, Butyracea, Cohune, and Phalerata in the ground.  Brejinhoensis is the toughest to cold so far, and I lost a Cohune that defoliated in January and got a fatal bud rot.  I want to try Speciosa too, though I haven't found one yet.

[D. Morrowii]

6 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I agree about Attaleas. I lost 3 (butyracea x2 & cohune) to Ian. Jury is still out on phalerata. The Livistona I suggest you plant is decora. Four of my five survived Ian. Those "ribbon" leaves let wind pass through them. I found decora to be fast growing and well suited to FL. I've tried numerous Livistona sp and decora tops them all. Kentiopsis oliviformis - or is it Chambeyronia now? - is also a good choice. Both of mine survived Irma & Ian with just some lean. Not rocket growers but not glacially slow.

Not great news on Attalea although I still plan to plant at least the one cohune I have in a pot. They are too appealing not to at least try. I hadn’t thought of K/C olivoformis as a canopy palm but that seems like a great long term candidate. The couple I have are pretty small 1 gals and a few seedlings so it might be awhile. I’ll look into Livistona decora I might have a good spot for one. Thanks @PalmatierMeg

[kinzyjr]

@waykoolplantz We were lucky enough to have @D. Morrowiisign up and tour with us.  Wonderful person to have aboard.

Palms for canopy usually have a downside.  As far as crown size and almost perfect hardiness in East Central Florida, Roystonea regia in groupings 10 feet apart might work.  Unfortunately, they release fronds that behave like a barbell dropped from a plane on anything below them.  @PalmatierMeg's Chambeyronia oliviformis recommendation is solid.  You'd have to get them closer together, but at least they won't destroy everything under them when they self clean.  Veitchia arecina could work, but you'd have to have a lot of them and very close together - probably no more than a 3 foot space between palms.  I like the Dypsis recommendations from @Merlyn, but Dypsis leptocheilos doesn't seem to grow to fast for me.

If you own a crane and a chain saw, lots of Caryota obtusa would work great, but you'd have to keep replacing them as they flower and perish.

How about other large fan palms like Bismarckia or large Sabals like causiarum?

In my location, it pays to stick with hardwoods for canopy.  You've been here, so you know it's primarily live oak, avocado, and mango canopy.  We get too much frost too often to pull off some of the stuff that can grow out in the open in Merritt Island.

[D. Morrowii]

29 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

There's probably a lot of Dypsis/Chrysolidacarpus that are fast growing and hardy enough for your spot.  Pembana, Cabadae, Lanceolata, Leptocheilos, Onilahensis, Madagascariensis, Lastelliana, Rosea, and maybe some others.  There are a bunch of those bigger Dypsis that I can't grow here due to yearly lows in the upper 20s.  You could probably also grow Pinanaga Coronata and Hyophorbe Indica.  Some of those aren't really "big" for shade either, but ones like Leptocheilos and Lastelliana are pretty big. 

@PalmatierMegsorry to hear about the Attaleas.    It was yours and the Leu Gardens ones that convinced me I need to try them here.  I've got Brejinhoensis, Butyracea, Cohune, and Phalerata in the ground.  Brejinhoensis is the toughest to cold so far, and I lost a Cohune that defoliated in January and got a fatal bud rot.  I want to try Speciosa too, though I haven't found one yet.

I just planted a 3 gal leptocheilos in the corner of a walkway but I was trying to find a place to try a 1 gal lastelliana I have. I think your right that could be a good permanent canopy palm. Pembana is a possibility too although if it clumped too much it might crowd the areas I’m working with. Thanks!

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjryeah I like Meg's idea of K.O. (now C.O.) for a warmer area than mine.  I had one in the backyard that 100% defoliated, despite being protected from frost.  It survived a bud infection with the help of Daconil + H2O2, and has 2 decent fronds now.  I think they are ok above 30F too. 

One Caryota Gigas/Obtusa is plenty for canopy...and might grow fast enough from a 5g size to give canopy in a couple of years.  Mine in the front yard is still suffering from defoliation at 28F, and might not make it through another cold winter.

[Gottagrowemall]

I use my clumping bamboo as a windbreak for my nursery plants and many of my delicate fruit trees. Graceful is probably the best variety 

[D. Morrowii]

15 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@waykoolplantz We were lucky enough to have @D. Morrowiisign up and tour with us.  Wonderful person to have aboard.

Palms for canopy usually have a downside.  As far as crown size and almost perfect hardiness in East Central Florida, Roystonea regia in groupings 10 feet apart might work.  Unfortunately, they release fronds that behave like a barbell dropped from a plane on anything below them.  @PalmatierMeg's Chambeyronia oliviformis recommendation is solid.  You'd have to get them closer together, but at least they won't destroy everything under them when they self clean.  Veitchia arecina could work, but you'd have to have a lot of them and very close together - probably no more than a 3 foot space between palms.  I like the Dypsis recommendations from @Merlyn, but Dypsis leptocheilos doesn't seem to grow to fast for me.

If you own a crane and a chain saw, lots of Caryota obtusa would work great, but you'd have to keep replacing them as they flower and perish.

How about other large fan palms like Bismarckia or large Sabals like causiarum?

In my location, it pays to stick with hardwoods for canopy.  You've been here, so you know it's primarily live oak, avocado, and mango canopy.  We get too much frost too often to pull off some of the stuff that can grow out in the open in Merritt Island.

Well thank ya sir very nice of you to say. Glad to be a part. 
I think oliviformis is locked at least for one of the spots. I might use some more Veitchias  maybe as temporary stand ins grouped together. I have one C. obtusa in the ground but its deliberately in an accessible spot. I’d like to avoid renting a crane! I think Bismarckia certainly checks a lot of the boxes off but I’d have to think about how that would look. Thanks again @kinzyjr

[D. Morrowii]

@GottagrowemallI was wonder about using some on the East side of my yard especially as a wind break. Are you able to control the shape of the clump fairly easily or is it a log of work? I’d want to keep it narrow like less than 3’ wide and cover a 8-10’ stretch. 

[Gottagrowemall]

1 hour ago, D. Morrowii said:

@GottagrowemallI was wonder about using some on the East side of my yard especially as a wind break. Are you able to control the shape of the clump fairly easily or is it a log of work? I’d want to keep it narrow like less than 3’ wide and cover a 8-10’ stretch. 

It’s super easy. I have a backyard nursery where I sell graceful bamboo and palms but mostly bamboo. I show ppl my plants before they buy and they sell themselves. Many bamboo varieties get big and strong. Graceful stays thin but elegant. The new shoots can be kicked over if you want the clump to stop expanding

[Merlyn]

Yeah, small boos can make a good windbreak and also provide a decent hedge for something like an area that needs AM or PM shade.  Gracilis is very vertical, so it won't provide mid-day "canopy."  There are some in the Gigantochloa group that have spreading tops, and might work for a local canopy.  A couple of options for you might be Gigantochloa Luteostriata (either 4447 or 4776 depending on desired height), Bambusa Suberecta "Jesse Durko," and three smaller Dendrocalamus: Dumosus, Elegans, Longliensis.  I went in for "big boos" 2 years ago and regret it.  I cut down most of them over the summer, and my rule of thumb is now "under 20' tall, under 1" diameter!"  Lots of good info here:

 

[sonoranfans]

My upper canopy(25' or taller now) consists of archontophoenix alexandre(triple), myolensis (2), maxima(1) and two royals(35'+), 4 trunk chinensis, one L.Decora, one bismarckia,  (3) 25'+ chambeyronia oliviformis, and one sabal causiarum and (3) alfredii.  My results are different than others reported here.  Where the palm was located seemed to matter for many.  My alfredii did not tilt  nor snap leaves in up to 100 mph gusts during Ian, but they did splay out, they have notably more horizontal leaf positions now, a wider more open crown.  Dypsis pembana did poorly, with 2 trunks snapping one of these in a protected position.  Royals were in the wind, no protection due to their height and they just had leaves snap off(6-8 leaves snapped off each palm on the windward side).  Sabal causiarum was completely exposed by itself, remarkable survivor with 6-8 more older leaves below horizontal now but otherwise its the champ.  Bismarckia lost 9 leaves(of ~25 in the  crown) to the windward side.  I think that bunching really helps as my archie alexanders amd m7yolensis did pretty well, less leaf snapping than chambeyronia oliviformis adn all were bunched together 3-10(max)' spacing.  If you are looking for canopy as in sun/cold protection, it will take 4-6 of skinny trunked palms to equal one bismarckia.  Palms that only hold 6-7 leaves like chanbeyronia are not going to help much with shade or cold trapping.  As far as palms not surviving at Megs place at cat 3 (111-129mph sustained winds (with gusts to 150mph or more) will destroy most taller palms mentioned here aside the sabals which did much better.   My yard saw about 100mph gusts, notabluy worse than IRMA(80-85 max gusts) but still it was much less than a cat 3, probably 80-85mph sustained).  Few palms can take a major hurricane(cat 3 or higher), most of what we have talked aboput here will not.  When palms are small and protected wind survival damage is not terribly informative.  If you dont want your alfredii to tip or fall over in heavy winds, the better plan is to cut off some leaves so the roots dont get ripped up.  Root damage is worse than losing 4-6 leaves IMO.  

[Merlyn]

@sonoranfansyeah I think the issue with Alfredii here is that mine are 15-20' tall with big, wide crowns that are all basically vertical.  And none of them are trunking, I can literally push the whole palm in any direction by hand.  This was my 2nd smallest out of 5 big ones in the ground, about 12-15' tall and angled around 30-40 degrees or so.  I pushed it back vertical by hand, and strapped the trunk to a 5' long pole that I had sledgehammered into the ground.  It's in soft sand, but the dirt and mulch was still in precisely the same spot as before. 

The tallest two were somewhat sheltered by the house, and only had about a 5 degree lean...or so.  It was enough to be noticeable, but not enough to really care about.  Maybe not coincidentally, both of these have substantially larger bases and are getting close to trunking.  So maybe the larger base = more large roots = greater base strength = less tilt?

[Gottagrowemall]

54 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@sonoranfansyeah I think the issue with Alfredii here is that mine are 15-20' tall with big, wide crowns that are all basically vertical.  And none of them are trunking, I can literally push the whole palm in any direction by hand.  This was my 2nd smallest out of 5 big ones in the ground, about 12-15' tall and angled around 30-40 degrees or so.  I pushed it back vertical by hand, and strapped the trunk to a 5' long pole that I had sledgehammered into the ground.  It's in soft sand, but the dirt and mulch was still in precisely the same spot as before. 

The tallest two were somewhat sheltered by the house, and only had about a 5 degree lean...or so.  It was enough to be noticeable, but not enough to really care about.  Maybe not coincidentally, both of these have substantially larger bases and are getting close to trunking.  So maybe the larger base = more large roots = greater base strength = less tilt?

Mine are like the exact same size, maybe a little bigger. I had to put several wooden stakes in and secure it after ian. Then for Nicole I tied up all the fronds and it didn’t blow over too bad. The other thing I noticed on this palm is the older fronds take forever to yellow. I hate cutting mostly green fronds off

[D. Morrowii]

After taking in all of the suggestions and experiences I’m trying to think about “palm canopy”, for my purposes at least, in these 5 categories. 

 

1. Short term temporary - For young palms and palms that quickly acclimate to full sun - also not necessarily palms.

Shade cloth

Bananas

Papaya

Shrubs etc.

Potted sun tolerant palms

 

2. Longer term sturdy temporary - For palms that need to mature in partial shade or mottled sunlight. (Chambeyronia macrocarpa, Burretiokentia )  possibly to be removed after a few years - 

Queens, 

Archontophoenix 

Wodyetia

Veitchia, 

Caryota 

 

3. Permanent, partial or full sun blocking maybe as cover for emergent palms, palms that need shade or palms that do better in shade - Desirable palm to be grown for its appearance and as cover.  Not considered frost tolerant.

Chambeyronia olivoformis, 

Dypsis leptocheilos, lastelliana 

Cocos nucifera

Elaeis guineensis?

 

4. Permanent sun and light frost cover - native and other cold hardy/frost tolerant - desirable fast palm grown for its appearance and as cover. 

 

Archontophoenix

Sabals 

Bismarckia

Livistona (decora) 

Syagrus amara

Phoenix sylvesteris? 

Beccariophoenix 

 

5. Permanent sun/wind cover hurricane resistant - not necessarily overhead cover -

 

Sabals

Livistona decora

Dictyosperma album

Veitchia

Satakentia? 

Bamboo

Roystonia, (crushing hazard for palms beneath) 

Attalea 

 

So to put the info into use. I have 2 areas in mind at the moment. For area 1 - backyard, end of porch 13’x18’  planter. I’ll use either D. lastelliana or A. tuckeri as permanent cover. I have 4 palms planned for the corners of that area, a mix of C macrocarpa, Burretiokentia and O. trispatha that will need protection from midday sun.
For area 2, front yard porch adjacent 15x20 planter - 2 V. arecina are already planted as temp cover. I plan to yank a S. palmetto at the end of winter and plant a Cohune in its place. Maybe someday it’ll be a large beautiful shade and wind break. I have 1 A. vestiaria and 1 L. rupicola in the ground since spring in this area and I plan to add a P. ceasia next spring. This spot is my best microclimate. 
It doesn't sound like planting in preparation for a cat 3-4 hurricane is practical but having a few of the ones that are able to survive one in the mix might be good insurance in the event one hits your area. At least you might have something left to start with.
Anyway thanks very much for the insight folks!