Spathodea at 43ºN

[gurugu]

I sprouted it from seed in 2017 and planted outdoors last summer 2021.  I´ll post more pictures as the flowers are fully open.

[gilles06]

Bravo !

What was the temperature lowest last winter?

 

 

[gurugu]

12 hours ago, gilles06 said:

Bravo !

What was the temperature lowest last winter?

 

 

Merci beaucoup! 

I am as happy as a sandboy! 

I haven't got a thermometer outdoors, but I guess temperature last winter wasn't below zero. Something between zero and two degrees C (32/36ºF).

I did see thin ice in some buckets with water. 

The coldest temperatures were in the first week of April, which is very, very unusual here. 

All winter, spring and summer has been very sunny and warm here, and thus, very dry. The tree improved a lot in a rainy week last September, when we had some 200 litres of rain water. 

Are you trying it at your place? Yours is a milder in winter and warmer in summer climate than mine, so you shouldn't have any trouble with it. 

[gilles06]

I didn't try one, i never saw one around here. That's why i am surprised by your flowering one!

[gurugu]

12 hours ago, gilles06 said:

I didn't try one, i never saw one around here. That's why i am surprised by your flowering one!

There must be some at Menton or in some sheltered town, for sure. 

I remember seeing some beautiful trees around Lake Atitlan, high up in the mountains, at 1.500 mts asl. in Guatemala. So they like cool and wet weather too. 

I didn't expect it to bloom being so young either. I had tried it before, in a colder place,  but it didn't make it. 

[gurugu]

Yesterday some flowers opened. I didn´t know the yellow colour inside. I like it.

 

[gurugu]

Despite being 5ºC last night, it keeps on flowering. Who knows the process of setting pods (seeds)?

This is the tree. It is 1,80mtres tall.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, gurugu said:

Despite being 5ºC last night, it keeps on flowering. Who knows the process of setting pods (seeds)?

This is the tree. It is 1,80mtres tall.

I think some sort of beetle pollinates them ...maybe bees, though the nectar / maybe pollen as well?? is toxic to them.  Have also heard they can self- pollinate w/ out insects involved.

You could also try pollinating between flowers with a fine-tipped paint brush..  I do this w/ my cacti fairly often w/ good results. 

[gurugu]

I´ve been trying to pollinate them with a small cotton bud, but I can´t see any polen on the cotton. I was reffering to how you know that pollination has been carried out? Once the flower drops, there´s some pedicelous remaining. If it gets fattened, does it mean that the flower has been pollinated?

[Silas_Sancona]

9 minutes ago, gurugu said:

I´ve been trying to pollinate them with a small cotton bud, but I can´t see any polen on the cotton. I was reffering to how you know that pollination has been carried out? Once the flower drops, there´s some pedicelous remaining. If it gets fattened, does it mean that the flower has been pollinated?

Yes, once the flowers come off, the Ovary should start to swell, signifying pollen has successfully traveled from the Stigma to the Ovary, successfully fertilizing it.

On other things, I know other people who will shred barely opened flowers, to access the freshest pollen possible. With some plants, if you are even a couple hours past when the flower opens, Pollen can already be dried out from extreme heat and pretty much useless..  Wet pollen is often no good as well. 

Appears pollen on them is white ( is in the included image at least ) so maybe it isn't showing up as well on a Cotton ball??  W/ a Paint Brush, i can usually tell if pollen has been successfully collected fairly easily.

Internet image **Courtesy dreams time**  of the Reproductive anatomy  arrangement of Spathodea campanulata:  Arrow is pointed at the Stigma.



 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yes, once the flowers come off, the Ovary should start to swell, signifying pollen has successfully traveled from the Stigma to the Ovary, successfully fertilizing it.

On other things, I know other people who will shred barely opened flowers, to access the freshest pollen possible. With some plants, if you are even a couple hours past when the flower opens, Pollen can already be dried out from extreme heat and pretty much useless..  Wet pollen is often no good as well. 

Appears pollen on them is white ( is in the included image at least ) so maybe it isn't showing up as well on a Cotton ball??  W/ a Paint Brush, i can usually tell if pollen has been successfully collected fairly easily.

Internet image **Courtesy dreams time**  of the Reproductive anatomy  arrangement of Spathodea campanulata:  Arrow is pointed at the Stigma.



 

Here's some ..much better / more detailed pictures of the same parts, plus other attributes of the tree:  ***Courtesy of Botany Brisbane***

https://www.botanybrisbane.com/plants/bignoniaceae/spathodea/spathodea-campanulata/

[gurugu]

Thaks so much for your nformation!

Definitely polen on the anthers is not that colour = white, but some red blackish. And I think it doesn´t change colour during the two days or so that flowers stay open, though I haven´t checked it up to that point. May it is so because it is not hot enough at this time of the year?

I´ll try to take a picture tomorrow for you to see.

[gurugu]

Hereyou can see what I mean.

This is the fourh picture I sent n this thread. Also in th third picture you can see the colour of the anthers.

[gurugu]

As you can see, the stilo an the stigma are way longer than the anthers, just the opposite as in your picture.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, gurugu said:

Hereyou can see what I mean.

This is the fourh picture I sent n this thread. Also in th third picture you can see the colour of the anthers.

Anthers appear as though either all the pollen has been shed, or it isn't producing any.  That Anther  "sac" will split open to release the pollen grains themselves. Stigma looks good. 

You might cut off a few of the Anthers and cut them open carefully to see if there's anything inside them.

1 hour ago, gurugu said:

As you can see, the stilo an the stigma are way longer than the anthers, just the opposite as in your picture.

Yea, think the publisher of the internet picture flipped it, lol.

[gurugu]

19 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Anthers appear as though either all the pollen has been shed, or it isn't producing any.  That Anther  "sac" will split open to release the pollen grains themselves. Stigma looks good. 

You might cut off a few of the Anthers and cut them open carefully to see if there's anything inside them.

Yea, think the publisher of the internet picture flipped it, lol.

I am afraid you are right. I´ve been watching the flowers, new and old ones, all day, and there is no polen at all. If it had flowered sooner, maybe it would have developed polen with more summer heat.

Let´s hope it survives this coming winter....

[Silas_Sancona]

12 minutes ago, gurugu said:

I am afraid you are right. I´ve been watching the flowers, new and old ones, all day, and there is no polen at all. If it had flowered sooner, maybe it would have developed polen with more summer heat.

Let´s hope it survives this coming winter....

Reluctance to produce much, if any  pollen during cooler weather could certainly be possible..  Here, the extreme heat we see before Monsoon season arrives can literally cook most or all of the pollen on flowers of certain things growing in full sun, or even a few hours of sun..   I notice too with certain things that when they first start flowering, after reaching flowering age, many of the flowers don't always produce pollen right away..  Usually do by the following year.

 Not certain what killed one i'd had that was roughly half the size of yours, but thinking the heavy soil it was planted in ( by the nursery i'd picked it up from ) contributed after it got soaked that winter before a few frosty mornings. Yours has much more wood on it than mine did, so that's a good start..

 

[gurugu]

56 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Reluctance to produce much, if any  pollen during cooler weather could certainly be possible..  Here, the extreme heat we see before Monsoon season arrives can literally cook most or all of the pollen on flowers of certain things growing in full sun, or even a few hours of sun..   I notice too with certain things that when they first start flowering, after reaching flowering age, many of the flowers don't always produce pollen right away..  Usually do by the following year.

 Not certain what killed one i'd had that was roughly half the size of yours, but thinking the heavy soil it was planted in ( by the nursery i'd picked it up from ) contributed after it got soaked that winter before a few frosty mornings. Yours has much more wood on it than mine did, so that's a good start..

 

According to what you say, maybe next year it will produce polen and pollination could feasible. I hope so, but what I do hope is that it survives next winter and that winter, spring and summer be as good as this year´s  which is too much to ask, according to our climate here. I think it has survived because it has been warm and dry. What puzzled me was that it grew much better when it was raining for about a week  last september, and that it started to set the blossoms just after that. Mere coincidence?

After losing many palms and trees and plants in general, due to root rotting in winter rainfall, I decided to plant prone to rotting plants, in pots with no bottom lid ( I cut it out) instead of planting them on a mound, and it has worked for me.

[Silas_Sancona]

7 minutes ago, gurugu said:

According to what you say, maybe next year it will produce polen and pollination could feasible. I hope so, but what I do hope is that it survives next winter and that winter, spring and summer be as good as this year´s  which is too much to ask, according to our climate here. I think it has survived because it has been warm and dry. What puzzled me was that it grew much better when it was raining for about a week  last september, and that it started to set the blossoms just after that. Mere coincidence?

After losing many palms and trees and plants in general, due to root rotting in winter rainfall, I decided to plant prone to rotting plants, in pots with no bottom lid ( I cut it out) instead of planting them on a mound, and it has worked for me.

They do prefer dry/ mild or warm winter conditions, compared to wet / cold ones.. That said, there are numerous, larger specimens all over San Diego and other areas around S. Cal. ..so they will tolerate some deg. of wet in the winter / cool-ish conditions in the summer. 

Makes sense that yours would push growth / flowers after a warm rain during the summer.. they definitely love that.

I've learned that what the soil is made up of, and how deep of a layer of "better soil" you provide can make the difference in how well ( ..or not so well ) plants with such requirements survive cool / wet winter conditions.. Almost always, it is plants planted in soil that is dense and retains a ton of moisture for long periods that end up rotting.  For stuff like that, i've dug holes equal to a 25-40gal pot, ...for a plant growing in a 5, 7 or 10gal,  back filling w/ a soil mix that is mostly grit / small gravel, Turface / Seramis, and Pumice ...or small Lava rock.  Works out pretty well. Even better if the bed is raised a bit higher than the overall soil level.

[gurugu]

5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

They do prefer dry/ mild or warm winter conditions, compared to wet / cold ones.. That said, there are numerous, larger specimens all over San Diego and other areas around S. Cal. ..so they will tolerate some deg. of wet in the winter / cool-ish conditions in the summer. 

Makes sense that yours would push growth / flowers after a warm rain during the summer.. they definitely love that.

I've learned that what the soil is made up of, and how deep of a layer of "better soil" you provide can make the difference in how well ( ..or not so well ) plants with such requirements survive cool / wet winter conditions.. Almost always, it is plants planted in soil that is dense and retains a ton of moisture for long periods that end up rotting.  For stuff like that, i've dug holes equal to a 25-40gal pot, ...for a plant growing in a 5, 7 or 10gal,  back filling w/ a soil mix that is mostly grit / small gravel, Turface / Seramis, and Pumice ...or small Lava rock.  Works out pretty well. Even better if the bed is raised a bit higher than the overall soil level.

Thanks for the information.

If it rains here as it usually does in winter, then his days are counted, it won´t survive. That´s why I´ve made that artificial mound. It has worked fine for me, and, besides, it traps more sun heat being black coloured. Three metres away from it, it was planted a Spathodea campanulata aurea (the yellow flowered one), but it didn´t survive, I guess because of groundwater. A pity because it had flowered for me several years back when in a big pot and sheltered at home for winter. The same happened to a Kigelia africana.

I think I will try both again next spring in a different spot (if I can get an Aurea, which is very difficult and I had managed to sprout from seeds picked in the Canary Islands).

Will you try Spathodea again in your garden?

[Silas_Sancona]

3 minutes ago, gurugu said:

 

Will you try Spathodea again in your garden?

I'm somewhat temped, if i can find one here..  I'm planning on putting in a Tipuana in the back to replace something i had to cut down last summer,  ...Maybe adding a Royal Poinciana ( if i can find a 15gal for a reasonable price ) ..either in the last open spot for a tree out there, or in another spot on the north side of the house out front. 

If i were going to put in an African Tulip, it would go in a spot out front on the south side of the house.  My bigger concern w/ these here is both the heat ..There used to be one planted in a different part of town, but the heat seemed to beat it up every year.  Other concern is our wind events during Monsoon season.. have heard repeatedly that wood on these is weak / brittle, and that they can suffer damage in high wind events.  Have enough issues w/ yearly wind damage to hybrid / over pruned Palo Verde, and non-native Mesquite around here..

[gurugu]

23 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I'm somewhat temped, if i can find one here..  I'm planning on putting in a Tipuana in the back to replace something i had to cut down last summer,  ...Maybe adding a Royal Poinciana ( if i can find a 15gal for a reasonable price ) ..either in the last open spot for a tree out there, or in another spot on the north side of the house out front. 

If i were going to put in an African Tulip, it would go in a spot out front on the south side of the house.  My bigger concern w/ these here is both the heat ..There used to be one planted in a different part of town, but the heat seemed to beat it up every year.  Other concern is our wind events during Monsoon season.. have heard repeatedly that wood on these is weak / brittle, and that they can suffer damage in high wind events.  Have enough issues w/ yearly wind damage to hybrid / over pruned Palo Verde, and non-native Mesquite around here..

That's why I have it enclosed in a framework. Winds here can reach up to 100km/hour.

I planted Tipuana tipu 25 years ago and two years ago I had to prune it because it had grown too tall. I don't think I 'll plant another at my new place. 

If you mean Delonix regia by Poinciana real, I want to give it another try after two failures. Again, root rotting prevention is key. I already have one in the greenhouse over a meter tall which I will plant next summer. For sure, this is much more tender. 

You shouldn't have issues with the heat the same as you have had with the Spathodea. 

I just can't imagine having problems with heat. Here temperatures above 32ºC means heat for us🙄

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, gurugu said:

That's why I have it enclosed in a framework. Winds here can reach up to 100km/hour.

I planted Tipuana tipu 25 years ago and two years ago I had to prune it because it had grown too tall. I don't think I 'll plant another at my new place. 

If you mean Delonix regia by Poinciana real, I want to give it another try after two failures. Again, root rotting prevention is key. I already have one in the greenhouse over a meter tall which I will plant next summer. For sure, this is much more tender. 

You shouldn't have issues with the heat the same as you have had with the Spathodea. 

I just can't imagine having problems with heat. Here temperatures above 32ºC means heat for us🙄

Yep, Delonix regia.. They do pretty good here, but aren't seen as often as they should be  -yet anyways..  Definitely have to watch them when young.  Have half a dozen seedlings that are inside for now. Any colder than it has been / cold wet soil will definitely harm them at that size / age.  Once they get some wood on them, they're actually pretty tough. Yea they can get damaged by a freak freeze here,  but, as long as it warms up afterwards, and the tree itself has enough wood, they'll regrow.

Remember, here it is over 40C pretty much every day from mid / late May - September ...or early October,  with temps above 45C not uncommon. 47-50C highs are rare, but occur often enough and cause more damage to stuff compared to a majority of the frost / freeze events we see in winter.  Night time lows are often in the 27 to 32C range June- September which adds more stress. 

Combine that heat with Dew points that are often below 25% / Humidity levels that can go below 0% at times, ...or stay in the 10-20% range each day, ...at least until Monsoon rains arrive in mid / late July -if they do. 

If trimmed too much, or at the wrong time, even native trees end up with serious sun damage from our heat in the summer.. Very easy to cook more tender tropical trees, esp. smaller ones.

Hard enough for people to deal with, tougher on plants, even fairly tough things.

[gurugu]

18 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yep, Delonix regia.. They do pretty good here, but aren't seen as often as they should be  -yet anyways..  Definitely have to watch them when young.  Have half a dozen seedlings that are inside for now. Any colder than it has been / cold wet soil will definitely harm them at that size / age.  Once they get some wood on them, they're actually pretty tough. Yea they can get damaged by a freak freeze here,  but, as long as it warms up afterwards, and the tree itself has enough wood, they'll regrow.

Remember, here it is over 40C pretty much every day from mid / late May - September ...or early October,  with temps above 45C not uncommon. 47-50C highs are rare, but occur often enough and cause more damage to stuff compared to a majority of the frost / freeze events we see in winter.  Night time lows are often in the 27 to 32C range June- September which adds more stress. 

Combine that heat with Dew points that are often below 25% / Humidity levels that can go below 0% at times, ...or stay in the 10-20% range each day, ...at least until Monsoon rains arrive in mid / late July -if they do. 

If trimmed too much, or at the wrong time, even native trees end up with serious sun damage from our heat in the summer.. Very easy to cook more tender tropical trees, esp. smaller ones.

Hard enough for people to deal with, tougher on plants, even fairly tough things.

I've tried Flamboyant. Delonix twice, first time green wood and second time hard wood and both failed. My major problem is rain in winter and ants? I don't know but both times I've had issues with them involved. 

I want to try a new one next spring. I sprouted seeds I had since 2009! Now I have it in the greenhouse, getting big.

Here 40ºC is once in ten years episode. Farther inland is more common, especially when Southern winds blow in summer, and very low humidity 40/50%. I think we have never been to single digits humidity wise. 

Your climate is even harder than in inland Andalucia :Córdoba or Sevilla. 

[Silas_Sancona]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:32 AM, gurugu said:

I've tried Flamboyant. Delonix twice, first time green wood and second time hard wood and both failed. My major problem is rain in winter and ants? I don't know but both times I've had issues with them involved. 

I want to try a new one next spring. I sprouted seeds I had since 2009! Now I have it in the greenhouse, getting big.

Here 40ºC is once in ten years episode. Farther inland is more common, especially when Southern winds blow in summer, and very low humidity 40/50%. I think we have never been to single digits humidity wise. 

Your climate is even harder than in inland Andalucia :Córdoba or Sevilla. 

Prolonged, winter wet / cold soil conditions can cause trouble, esp for younger / seedling specimens of Royal Poinciana. Older/ well established ones here, and in California seem to laugh it off though, as long as those kinds of conditions don't last for months..

Yes, lol.. Arizona Summer heat ..Desert areas at least, is harsh indeed. Worth it though when the rains return, and everything greens up,  even if the extra moisture doesn't bring 100% relief from the heat.

[gurugu]

35 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Prolonged, winter wet / cold soil conditions can cause trouble, esp for younger / seedling specimens of Royal Poinciana. Older/ well established ones here, and in California seem to laugh it off though, as long as those kinds of conditions don't last for months..

Yes, lol.. Arizona Summer heat ..Desert areas at least, is harsh indeed. Worth it though when the rains return, and everything greens up,  even if the extra moisture doesn't bring 100% relief from the heat.

Precisely, that´s what I´m afraid of. Here, winters are usually mild but long and rainy. I think that´s why Spathodea and others have survived and flowered, because this past winter has been dry and sunny. And that´s why I build that mound  around the tree trunk, and the framework around the tree. With Delonix, I think it is even worse because it is more sensitive to those factors: rain and cool temperatures and lack of sunshine.

Maybe planting a really big, thick one chances would be bigger.

[mnorell]

Spathodea is strangely tolerant of varying climates...as long as it doesn't freeze. But its behavior is equally diverse. Along the fogbelt Southern California coastal strip, they seem to thrive during the May-to-November period and sulk from December to April, gradually losing most of their leaves. They also want to grow horizontally rather than vertically there, like giant shrubs...and their flowering tends to be in the summer-fall period and extremely variable. In the '80s-'90s I would notice those in Los Angeles (e.g. the big old specimen on Venice Boulevard) flowering exclusively in September/October. In warmer years, though, they do seem to throw flowers in late Spring or early summer. 

In Hawai'i and Florida they bolt straight upward at breakneck speed, flowering exclusively in the March/April period, after which they stop their flowering completely. Trees I planted on Big Pine Key were rocketships and flowered within a few years from seed, at about 25-30' height. They dislike hurricanes (crown breakup), and they have a hard time recovering from saltwater inundation (one of my large trees tried to come back after Irma's drenching, but ultimately gave up the ghost).

They grow shockingly well in the Palm Springs area considering the punishing summers. When we moved to Rancho Mirage I noticed one planted a few blocks away in hot, west-facing, reflected sun. That tree had struggled while young (I could see from Google Street View it was planted around 2015 and made little progress its first few years); but about three years ago it started growing vigorously and is now a very nice tree about 15' tall. They bloom here between the more tropical March timeframe and summer. before the extreme heat brings flowering to a halt. I planted one next to our pool in pretty much full sun (not really reflected heat though) and it looks very nice after a two-year struggle to get its summertime cojones. It also shows some dieback during the summer at its tips on young, thing stems, but it throws new vertical growth from the more protected lower areas of these stems, which quickly overtake and replace those that wither away. I can see it gets stronger each year; and ours is now an attractive eight-foot tree. We are on a free-draining alluvial fan, so pooling of water around the roots is not a concern. The tree has seen 31F and showed only a dropping of its tiniest new leaflets (there was no frost); but I know from personal experience in the 1990 freeze in Los Angeles that mid-20s will kill a youngish, developing tree, with no hope of return from the roots. I haven't noticed any other trees around the Coachella Valley, but I know they exist, as Moller's Nursery in Palm Desert brings in nice large specimens every year and they sell out quickly.

On the plus side at least for coastal areas, they are a much more dependable bloomer than is Delonix regia, since they seem to be able to adjust behavior to suit their surroundings; where Delonix seems very set in its ways, resenting the cool wet-winter coastal climates and demanding a good, dry winter/early spring (and usually sufficient heat) in order to put on a Florida-style show. However the Poinciana's ability to spring back from freeze damage makes it a good choice for more winter-variable places like Phoenix or Tucson, and where it just gets drunk on the heat. Also I don't think Spathodea's flowering behavior is affected by high-intensity overhead lighting the way Delonix is.

If I were in Phoenix I would probably try a Spathodea with a southeastern exposure, inside the dripline of a tall, spreading canopy tree like an Enterolobium, as I think that would afford it the protection it needs but give it some room to develop. Maybe also just tucked up against a building or under a tall eave, though there are very few tall homes or eaves in the desert...