Trim or Remove Washingtonia Palms?

[WashingtoniaPalm]

Hi - I have 2 Washingtonia Palm trees in my backyard in Los Angeles that are about 25/30 feet tall.  Do they eventually self clean and is there anyway to encourage this?  I would like to keep the trees if possible but they are becoming a maintenance headache. 

 

 

[Darold Petty]

Welcome to Palmtalk  !  

If these were my palms I would remove them completely sooner rather than later.  They will always produce a lot of leaf litter, and myriad seeds and sprouts.    Also, the dried petioles of this palm are a primary source of firebrands during wildfires.   Your maintenance headache will only continue forever.

  Remove them, and invest in some Howea palms!  

[NorCalWill]

These palms are not self cleaning, however if you get a lot of wind where you live, some of the old leaves will blow off and get scattered around your yard.  Most will hang on until someone goes up there to cut them off. You could hire an arborist to clean them once a year.

[Josue Diaz]

If you decide to keep them, removing the old boots (ie, cleaning the trunk) will make it to where the old fronds fall off easiers over time - sometimes one at a time, sometimes in big bunches after a strong wind. 

 

[Johnny Palmseed]

Those are very nice examples of Washingtonians but as stated above, the maintenance will never go away and it will never self clean. My vote is remove it now since I have dealt with similar problems and have removed the offending palms after thinking about it for a while. Besides, when you joined Palm Talk you were automatically granted “Palm Curious” status. With time you could work your way up to “Palm Nerd” or “Palmaholic”. Eventually you could become like many on here - soft or even hard core Palm Addicts. Then you will constantly be searching for the next new palm. Pushing temperature zones. Traveling great distances to acquire a fragile seedling for a ridiculous amount of money. Establishing a palm nursery in your house to the chagrin of your significant other. My point is that there are so many other great palms for your area and Washingtonians are over done and somewhat of a hassle. And welcome to the club!

[Patrick]

Hi Washingotia, as you can see, though we love all palms, Washingtonias are not near the top of the list for many of us. Myself included. When planning my palm yard, I chose to enjoy those palms in OTHER people's yards. Those and Canary dates. They're very common. Queens are on the list, but I wanted SOME sort of instant canopy lol

If you go with the trim option, that's going to be several hundred dollars every year if you're going to pay people. They do self clean, like others said, if you get a good wind, like the Santa Anna's, buy you need like 20' of trunk because then the trunk will flex. When the trunk flexes in the wind that will break the boots loose from the trunk nd they will come down.

Either way you choose is up to you, but I hope you get the information to make a good decision for yourself.

I can relate to the guys up in NorCal, because I'm up here too. You have such great weather down there, if you wanted to invest in something a little more exotic, it might be something the palm enthusiasts might take a second look at. Heck, even a Guadalupe palm is more 'exotic' than a Washingtonia. There are many, many options for you So-Cal folks. 

 

Good luck, whichever your choice!

Edited November 29, 2022 by Patrick

[Jim in Los Altos]

They most certainly WILL become self cleaning in a few years. All five of my Washingtonia are self cleaning and never need maintenance. They become skyline trees as they get taller, something rare in the palm world here in California. I have to pick up fallen fronds occasionally but that’s the case with dozens of other palms on my landscape besides my Washingtonia. Here’s one of mine. It never ever needs trimming. 
 

[Jim in Los Altos]

1 hour ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Those are very nice examples of Washingtonians but as stated above, the maintenance will never go away and it will never self clean. My vote is remove it now since I have dealt with similar problems and have removed the offending palms after thinking about it for a while. Besides, when you joined Palm Talk you were automatically granted “Palm Curious” status. With time you could work your way up to “Palm Nerd” or “Palmaholic”. Eventually you could become like many on here - soft or even hard core Palm Addicts. Then you will constantly be searching for the next new palm. Pushing temperature zones. Traveling great distances to acquire a fragile seedling for a ridiculous amount of money. Establishing a palm nursery in your house to the chagrin of your significant other. My point is that there are so many other great palms for your area and Washingtonians are over done and somewhat of a hassle. And welcome to the club!

All five of mine are self cleaning. They all become self cleaning eventually with age. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

3 hours ago, NorCalWill said:

These palms are not self cleaning, however if you get a lot of wind where you live, some of the old leaves will blow off and get scattered around your yard.  Most will hang on until someone goes up there to cut them off. You could hire an arborist to clean them once a year.

All of mine are 100% self cleaning now that they’ve attained some height. 

[awkonradi]

The following is speculation.  I am not an experienced palm grower.  The next time you remove dead fronds, then could you pull those off (also pulling off the boots), instead of cutting those off (leaving the boots).  After that, then could your palms become self-cleaning?  I acknowledge that pulling off dead fronds may require more force than reasonably can be achieved while on a ladder.

In my neighborhood, fairly pure Washingtonia robusta (as yours appear to be), become self cleaning when they are taller than your palms.  I speculate that pulling off dead fronds earlier might speed this transition.  I emphasize the word "speculate".

I think you have two very nice palms, which are well adapted for your climate, and probably require little maintenance, other than dead frond removal.  Maybe keep those two palms, but not worry if they have dead fronds hanging, and plant a lot of other cool palms, which others here will guide you through patiently?

[Patrick]

I've learned with my Livistonas that the palm determines when the boot can separate from the trunk. If you pull and pry too soon and rip that boot off you introduce scarring on the trunk once the palm recovers from you tearing it off.

It's especially noticeable on my Chamaedorea trunks, but applies to all palms. I have a king palm where I want to tear the boot off, but it's still a little green and if I tear it off it will create an injury.

Once the middle boots up the trunk start to go, they all go. Except for the lower boots.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Patrick

[Tracy]

20 hours ago, WashingtoniaPalm said:

Do they eventually self clean and is there anyway to encourage this?  I would like to keep the trees if possible but they are becoming a maintenance headache. 

I think the focus is that in your perception, they are already "becoming a maintenance headache".  While my friend in Los Altos is correct that they do eventually become self cleaning, particularly this time of year when we get Santa Ana's, and as Patrick and Josue observed, after the retained boots start dropping.  It can take some time for them to lose the boots unless you have someone climb the trees and remove them.  My neighbor has a pair along our fence line, that were easily 35' tall and were still retaining the leaf bases.  I ended up paying to have them trimmed and the old boots removed to accelerate the process.  Prior to that it was a complete mess every time we get Santa Ana winds.  I still get a crop of seedlings in my yard from these two trees every year, that looks like I seeded for grass.  The taller they get the wider the spread of the seedlings every year.  This species is native to Mexico, hence the common name, Mexican Fan Palms, but have established here in California and need no help in reproducing.

Hopefully you have a little more information to make your decision now as to whether to keep or remove your Washingtonia robusta palms.  The other thing I hope we can share is that there are easier to maintain palms that you can replace these with if you elect to remove them.  There are also some palms that once established can thrive with limited water (emphasis on limited, and not "no" water).  Some of the Butia and Brahea palms would fit into this category.  Depending on what part of LA you are in and your microclimate, there are dozens of other options to choose from, and most will require less maintenance than your existing palms.  Do a search on Brahea and/or Butia on this website to see what other's are sharing about these palms as well as see photos to see if they are something you would enjoy seeing in your garden.  Welcome to PalmTalk and we hope you visit again to learn more and expand your interest in palms.

[PalmatierMeg]

17 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

All of mine are 100% self cleaning now that they’ve attained some height. 

Agree with Jim. By the time ours got tall (15+') the dead leaves showered the yard after every thunderstorm/tropical storm. No chance a Washy will ever get a long "skirt" in FL. No chance one will reach 80' tall either (lightning). That said, Washies are common as dirt here as in CA. They are messy, seed aggressively, germinate easily and are a pain to deal with. I yanked rogue seedlings for years after mine died from wilt. You can do much better palmwise with your climate.

[Johnny Palmseed]

20 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

All five of mine are self cleaning. They all become self cleaning eventually with age. 

Yeah I thought about that after I posted. I was only thinking about the immediate future and what are considered true self cleaning palms. But obviously you are right, they do become self cleaning. Actually if you think about it, all palms are self cleaning. It’s just that some don’t conform to our needs for time and aesthetics.

[Fusca]

18 hours ago, awkonradi said:

The following is speculation.  I am not an experienced palm grower.  The next time you remove dead fronds, then could you pull those off (also pulling off the boots), instead of cutting those off (leaving the boots).  After that, then could your palms become self-cleaning?  I acknowledge that pulling off dead fronds may require more force than reasonably can be achieved while on a ladder.

As others have said I think that the palm basically determines when the old leaf boots can be removed.  Depending on the weather conditions and how long the boots have been on the palm.  If you start trimming a relatively tall washy with a long skirt, the fronds nearest the bottom will easily pull off but at some point up the trunk the newer old boots want to stay put.  When I had 15' tall palms in my yard in Houston (that weren't a maintenance problem yet) I used to trim the old boots as close to the trunk as possible (instead of pulling them off) in order to add some "insulation" for the palm trunk during freak cold events.  Obviously not an issue for Los Angeles growers but might have helped the palm survive some pretty low temperatures.

[Jim in Los Altos]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Yeah I thought about that after I posted. I was only thinking about the immediate future and what are considered true self cleaning palms. But obviously you are right, they do become self cleaning. Actually if you think about it, all palms are self cleaning. It’s just that some don’t conform to our needs for time and aesthetics.

My youngest pictured below began the trunk shedding process during the summer. It’s about the size of your taller one. Fronds on my others fall off soon after browning and drying.

Also, only one of my tall adults ever produces seed (luckily) and I get a few scattered seedlings that easily put out. My soil is very loose and loamy. They can be much more difficult to pull out in clay soil. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Jim in Los Altos

[Silas_Sancona]

Many ..But maybe not all washies do the "self cleaning" thing as they get older / taller.. 



Regardless, would remove, turn the trunks into Tikis, and plant something more interesting / that requires less / no maintenance. 








 

[Jim in Los Altos]

3 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Many ..But maybe not all washies do the "self cleaning" thing as they get older / taller.. 



Regardless, would remove, turn the trunks into Tikis, and plant something more interesting / that requires less / no maintenance. 








 

Are those in a desert region? That might explain their unwillingness to shed. My neighborhood has many mature Washingtonia and they all self clean. It’s not arid here though. 

[Silas_Sancona]

Just now, Jim in Los Altos said:

Are those in a desert region? That might explain their unwillingness to shed. My neighborhood has many mature Washingtonia and they all self clean. It’s not arid here though. 

San Francisco..  Twoards the bottom of page #2 in this thread:

 

[Darold Petty]

JIm,   what about the dead fronds falling into the neighbors' yards ?? 

The San Francisco image posted by Silas is about 1 km from my home !

[SeanK]

Palms should be sized appropriately for your landscape and structures. Do you have 5 acres and a 5 story building? If not, Take them down and plan your landscape with more interesting palms.

[WashingtoniaPalm]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and thoughtful responses. It is always a difficult decision to cut down 2 mature plants/trees, so I will give it some more thought before making a decision. If I do cut down the palms, I will replace with a more interesting species.

[NorCalWill]

16 hours ago, WashingtoniaPalm said:

Thank you everyone for your feedback and thoughtful responses. It is always a difficult decision to cut down 2 mature plants/trees, so I will give it some more thought before making a decision. If I do cut down the palms, I will replace with a more interesting species.

Thank you for bringing up a good topic of discussion.

Seems like different people have different experiences with this palm, and most people either love or hate it for whatever reason. There are both ugly and beautiful specimens out there, so it's good to give it some thought and decide what is right for you to do.

I still think it's a stretch to call it self cleaning though. To me, self cleaning is a palm that when the leaf is done, it dries up and cleanly falls off (example, Rhopalostylis). I've mostly seen W. robusta not do this, with a good amount of dried leaves that hang on until they either blow off in high winds or are physically removed (Silas_sancona shared a good example). Or, they may eventually fall off on their own in time if lower boots are gone.

Enjoy your palms, and whatever you decide to do, there will be people who support your decision and those who don't.

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, NorCalWill said:

Thank you for bringing up a good topic of discussion.

Seems like different people have different experiences with this palm, and most people either love or hate it for whatever reason. There are both ugly and beautiful specimens out there, so it's good to give it some thought and decide what is right for you to do.

I still think it's a stretch to call it self cleaning though. To me, self cleaning is a palm that when the leaf is done, it dries up and cleanly falls off (example, Rhopalostylis). I've mostly seen W. robusta not do this, with a good amount of dried leaves that hang on until they either blow off in high winds or are physically removed. Or, they may eventually fall off on their own in time if lower boots are gone.

 

I wonder if, to some extent,  it comes down to random genetics...  ....Some specimens shedding their leaves / boots easier/ faster than others, regardless of climate influence..   I say this because both answers ( those sharing examples of specimens that shed, mainly on their own ) and specimens that don't   are correct  ..and easy to see both examples if you look around enough..    I also wonder if there is any notable difference in leaf retention between pure specimens and X filibusta..

Looking through pictures on iNat yesterday, there are plenty of pictures of specimens, tall ones as well, with most ..if not all  of their skirt still attached, both from arid areas, and literally up on a coastal bluff in north county ( San Diego ) ( see the lead image  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/79521-Washingtonia-robusta  )  In that case, you'd figure ..being right next to the ocean, w/ nothing to block any wind..   every single one of those specimens would be stripped of dead leaves / boots.. but only one is fairly  " clean"  Another is starting the process, while the rest are fully clothed..

There's another picture ( or two ) from somewhere in Spring Valley showing a group of several tall ones, clothed to their toes as well..

That said, i'm pretty sure i have seen specimens here that aren't regularly maintained, if at all.. but do a decent job of cleaning up themselves.. 

@WashingtoniaPalm  As has been expressed, "...To keep em', or do something else" is a personal choice..  If you decided to axe and replace,  Brahea edulis  is a cleaner, Washingtonia look-alike option you might research. https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/56849-Brahea-edulis  /  https://www.palmpedia.net/palmsforcal/Brahea_edulis

..Even if you add a couple of those, and  keep the washys, they're a great palm for where you're located..  Slower growing, but not a snail ..so they won't grow like weeds.. Leaf stalks may have minimal "teeth",  but are far smaller / less intimidating compared to Washingtonia. I honestly don't remember a neighbor's specimens having any on them.  ..Fruit are bigger though, so you'd have to remove the flower stalks, if you don't want to deal w/ the fruit. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Chainsaw.

[Jim in Los Altos]

On 11/29/2022 at 2:12 PM, Darold Petty said:

JIm,   what about the dead fronds falling into the neighbors' yards ?? 

The San Francisco image posted by Silas is about 1 km from my home !

Darold, Neighbors on either side of me have garden maintenance workers and I’ve never had a complaint about fronds in their side yards. My bordering King palms drop large fronds too of course. If I notice one partially visible above the privacy fencing, I’ll grab ahold of it and pull it over to my side to dispose of. Otherwise the neighbor’s gardeners pick them up and dispose of them. I’ve often seen a frond partially sticking out of the neighbor’s yard waste recycle bin even though they have no palms. 

[Darold Petty]

Lucky you, my neighbor complains that my Ceroxylon will fall on her house ! 

(Her house is on the upwind side relative to mine. )     

[Jim in Los Altos]

Some of what makes me appreciate the common Washingtonia. I like that they’re visible from almost anywhere in my neighborhood. They are quite photogenic. The watercolor below is one of my favorite pieces of art. 
 

[Jim in Los Altos]

10 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Lucky you, my neighbor complains that my Ceroxylon will fall on her house !  

Oh no! I hope you’ve been able to educate the neighbor. Some neighbors are uneducable though.

[NorCalWill]

12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I wonder if, to some extent,  it comes down to random genetics...  ....Some specimens shedding their leaves / boots easier/ faster than others, regardless of climate influence..   I say this because both answers ( those sharing examples of specimens that shed, mainly on their own ) and specimens that don't   are correct  ..and easy to see both examples if you look around enough..    I also wonder if there is any notable difference in leaf retention between pure specimens and X filibusta..

Looking through pictures on iNat yesterday, there are plenty of pictures of specimens, tall ones as well, with most ..if not all  of their skirt still attached, both from arid areas, and literally up on a coastal bluff in north county ( San Diego ) 

[Palmfarmer]

Set the old boots on fire. Its the risky and lazy way to do it. It will burn of all the old boots and old fronds and within a year it will look amazing. There is the chance of frying the heart or of course making a fire so do this at your own risk. 

[Palmfarmer]

I have seen it done in the parks here in Mexico

[Johnny Palmseed]

I don’t live there but I’m not sure if that would be allowed in SoCal.

[NorCalWill]

2 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I don’t live there but I’m not sure if that would be allowed in SoCal.

Definitely not. You'd risk burning down the entire neighborhood. These palms are in Santa Rosa, CA, north of SF, we've lost thousands of homes to fire in the past few years. Interestingly, the fires did in fact clean up many palms that caught fire, which now look healthy and green.

[Silas_Sancona]

6 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Set the old boots on fire. Its the risky and lazy way to do it. It will burn of all the old boots and old fronds and within a year it will look amazing. There is the chance of frying the heart or of course making a fire so do this at your own risk. 

 

6 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

I have seen it done in the parks here in Mexico

 

1 hour ago, NorCalWill said:

Definitely not. You'd risk burning down the entire neighborhood. These palms are in Santa Rosa, CA, north of SF, we've lost thousands of homes to fire in the past few years. Interestingly, the fires did in fact clean up many palms that caught fire, which now look healthy and green.

Yep, lol..  You could try it, ...but only if you're up for welcoming every city / county / state / and federal agency to your house for a meeting, who would likely have something to say about setting them on fire 😁  Neighbors would likely want in on the meeting too😀

Have to admit, seeing them go up like roman candles when struck by lightning each summer is kind of neat though.  Would be an interesting experiment to see what kind of temperatures are generated at crown level when burning..

[sonoranfans]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:10 PM, WashingtoniaPalm said:

Hi - I have 2 Washingtonia Palm trees in my backyard in Los Angeles that are about 25/30 feet tall.  Do they eventually self clean and is there anyway to encourage this?  I would like to keep the trees if possible but they are becoming a maintenance headache. 

 

 

think of when they are 45' tall, that is an even worse maintenance headache unless you are spiderman.  It just gets worse, the do tend to hang onto dead leaves and have plenty of sharp thorns.  I saw these kind of maintenance head aches coming byu watching others on this board years ago.  But I even underestimated maintenance of large palms.  Almost all of my big palms(except alfredii) self shed.  But some mature ones like bismarckia drop 250-300lbs a fruit each year and it rots if you dont pick it up soon after.  The older alfredii dont shed, they tend to turn brown and snap mid-section so far but they grow trunk slowly.   Cou7ld be worse those aren't W. filifera which would have a ~3000lb trunk to remove as well at that height.   Many here on palmtalk have figured out something in this area the hard way.  In LA you have many choices, you should arrange a tour of a palmtalker to show you the ropes in that area.  First comes to my mind is DoomsDave in Whittier, but there are many palmtalkers in the LA area.