Filifera damage report 16F

[NBTX11]

Low of 16 degrees F. A couple other nights at 19 and 22. All days went above freezing although just barely on one day. No supplemental heat, however the small palms were covered. 
 

Large Filifera no damage or frond burn

 

[NBTX11]

Medium Filifera 8-10 feet tall no damage looks flawless. 

[NBTX11]

Small Filifera 30 percent leaf burn. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by NBTX11

[NBTX11]

The above should give you an idea of what to expect from 15-20 degrees from Washingtonia Filifera.  Large and established medium sized Filifera with trunk should show little to no damage.  Small palms will be less hardy and will show burn from below 20F.  Large palms will start burning at around 14F, give or take a degree.

Edited December 31, 2022 by NBTX11

[ebornguo]

same temperature 

[MarcusH]

I bought this filifera in late October and planted it right away.  It already came with 2 dying fronds.  Only used one bedsheet nothing else.  Not even established and this one giving me already a big smile on my face. Definitely a winner . 

[NBTX11]

As small plants, they can burn below 20F.  Once it gets a well established trunk, the hardiness increases significantly down to 14F before experiencing leaf burn.

Both of my larger plants experienced 9F in 2021 and recovered fairly easily, albeit with a lot of frond burn.  Both pushed green almost immediately.  This is a long term reliable palm for a mid 8b climate and a worthwhile palm for zone 8a.  100 year hardy in Austin TX and fully hardy to probably Waco TX and sometimes inner Dallas.  Worth growing all the way to the Oklahoma border.   

[MarcusH]

7 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

As small plants, they can burn below 20F.  Once it gets a well established trunk, the hardiness increases significantly down to 14F before experiencing leaf burn.

Both of my larger plants experienced 9F in 2021 and recovered fairly easily, albeit with a lot of frond burn.  Both pushed green almost immediately.  This is a long term reliable palm for a mid 8b climate and a worthwhile palm for zone 8a.  100 year hardy in Austin TX and fully hardy to probably Waco TX and sometimes inner Dallas.  Worth growing all the way to the Oklahoma border.   

I agree with you . Wish nurseries , HD and Lowes would push filifera more it pays off down the road.  I still see many dead robustas from February 2021 all over the city it looks ugly . With Filiferas you most likely don't have to be concerned about our Texas freezes anymore.  

[NBTX11]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I agree with you . Wish nurseries , HD and Lowes would push filifera more it pays off down the road.  I still see many dead robustas from February 2021 all over the city it looks ugly . With Filiferas you most likely don't have to be concerned about our Texas freezes anymore.  

When you essentially have a string of 30 plus straight mild winters and local Robusta are pushing great heights, people forget about the freezes.  All it takes is one freeze to take down a 50 foot Robusta.

That said, Robusta are still worth planting due to their general hardiness, rapid growth rate, and attractive thin trunks, with the understanding that a major 30 year freeze could kill them.  I personally would rather err on the side of hardiness and that is why I plant Filifera, but I am still a proponent of Robusta and especially hybrids being planted.  They are generally hardy in SA, as we've seen by the survivors.  They didn't get to large heights in the first place by accident.

If I were planting a yard from scratch, I would plant 80 percent hardy palms with a small mix of less hardy plants.  

The best way to get yourself Filifera is to look for a grove of mature Filifera plantings, get some seeds, and grow them yourself.  This way you are not relying on nurseries.   

Edited January 2, 2023 by NBTX11

[jwitt]

December 

2 nights @16f

1 night @ 17f

2 nights @ 18f

Leaf hardy to about 12-14f for me. Grown from hand collected seed in Cleburne, TX

 

12/30/22 

Edited January 2, 2023 by jwitt

[Axel Amsterdam]

James, thanks for the pictures and comparisons. Would you say this palm to be a filifera grown in a different type of climate or is this a type of filibusta that can be seen in TX as well? 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

view other side 

[Meangreen94z]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:24 PM, NBTX11 said:

Low of 16 degrees F. A couple other nights at 19 and 22. All days went above freezing although just barely on one day. No supplemental heat, however the small palms were covered. 
 

Large Filifera no damage or frond burn

 

Out of curiosity, where do you source your pure filifera? If you’re willing to share.

[Jtee]

Anyone tell me if they think this is a pure filifera or a filibusta? 
expert eyes needed

 

 

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, Jtee said:

Anyone tell me if they think this is a pure filifera or a filibusta? 
expert eyes needed

 

 

Filifera in slightly acidic soil. My guess

[UK_Palms]

12 hours ago, Jtee said:

Anyone tell me if they think this is a pure filifera or a filibusta? 
expert eyes needed

 

Filibusta hybrid 100% in those pics. Both the concentration of spines/teeth and the coloration of them are a dead giveaway without me even having to look further at the petiole bases to see whether they are completely green too. I can also see spines going right up to the frond, whereas the final quarter is normally spineless with Filifera. Based on those pictures and the extent of the burn/damage too, I would say it is more likely Robusta dominant too. Only the actual fronds look Filifera-ish to me. The rest is quite Robusta looking.

[MarcusH]

30 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Filibusta hybrid 100% in those pics. Both the concentration of spines/teeth and the coloration of them are a dead giveaway without me even having to look further at the petiole bases to see whether they are completely green too. I can also see spines going right up to the frond, whereas the final quarter is normally spineless with Filifera. Based on those pictures and the extent of the burn/damage too, I would say it is more likely Robusta dominant too. Only the actual fronds look Filifera-ish to me. The rest is quite Robusta looking.

Here in San Antonio we have a lot of Filifera growing.  I have two young ones . I went to a park where I collected seeds from an old Filifera . The spines can reach the fronds but are usually small. Here are some pictures of the ones in the park and mine. 

[jwitt]

Pure filifera growing in native stand near Palm Springs.  For reference.

[NBTX11]

15 hours ago, Jtee said:

Anyone tell me if they think this is a pure filifera or a filibusta? 
expert eyes needed

 

 

Looks heavy Filifera to me. What were your lows?

[UK_Palms]

@MarcusH Those fronds look a very vibrant deep green. It could well be a Filifera, or it could be another hybrid leaning towards Filifera. There’s no doubt the thorn arrangement and hastate look very Filifera-like, but I think the jury may be out on those. It’s quite possible that the Filifera you collected seed from had been pollenated by a nearby hybrid, in which case those offspring would be Filifera dominant hybrids. It does looks a bit too green to me, although it could just be the sun on it.

@jwitt As for the native stand in Palm Springs, I don’t doubt that the bigger parent plants are pure Filifera clearly, but how sure are you that nearby Robusta’s, or hybrids, haven’t pollenated any of them? That one you posted has quite a bit of coloration on the petiole base. Some sources say pure Filifera should have no colouration at all, while others say they can have a very slight bit of red/brown on the petiole bases. That one you posted has purple/brown colouring however, which is a robusta trait. I’m not saying it isn’t a Filifera, but it certainly raises questions about its purity.

[jwitt]

19 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@MarcusH

@jwitt As for the native stand in Palm Springs, I don’t doubt that the bigger parent plants are pure Filifera clearly, but how sure are you that nearby Robusta’s, or hybrids, haven’t pollenated any of them? That one you posted has quite a bit of coloration on the petiole base. Some sources say pure Filifera should have no colouration at all, while others say they can have a very slight bit of red/brown on the petiole bases. That one you posted has purple/brown colouring however, which is a robusta trait. I’m not saying it isn’t a Filifera, but it certainly raises questions about its purity.

Here's robusta minus any red/brown at the petiole base.  Kind of goes against the argument. 

What is pure?

 

 

[UK_Palms]

@jwitt Are those the exact same two washies in the first and second photo? Surely not. Have you got a street view location for them? Does the angle of the second photo make the trunks look thinner / more elongated than they actually are? They could just be very Robusta dominant hybrids that don't happen to have any coloration. I was of the impression that pure Robusta will always have quite a bit of purple/brown colouring. A lack of colouring or any red being a sign of Filifera DNA. There's probably a lot of variation though as these photos my show.

[jwitt]

13 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@jwitt Are those the exact same two washies in the first and second photo? Surely not. Have you got a street view location for them? Does the angle of the second photo make the trunks look thinner / more elongated than they actually are? They could just be very Robusta dominant hybrids that don't happen to have any coloration. I was of the impression that pure Robusta will always have quite a bit of purple/brown colouring. A lack of colouring or any red being a sign of Filifera DNA. There's probably a lot of variation though as these photos my show.

Exact same palms.  Parking garage at the California, Las Vegas, NV 

You can even see the Grand hotel. For reference if needed for street view.  

No tricks, nothing to hide.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by jwitt

[NBTX11]

We see dozens if not hundreds of Filifera every day. We generally know what they look like. I pass about 40 or 50 Filifera on my way to work every day and have for over 20 years. This isn’t a study from looking at photos. We see them live, up close, and in person every day.  In Marcus’ photos it looks like sunlight is throwing off the color. I can generally tell a pure like Filifera by just looking at the frond color. They are much duller than a Robusta. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by NBTX11

[jwitt]

9 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

We see dozens if not hundreds of Filifera every day. We generally know what they look like. I pass about 40 or 50 Filifera on my way to work every day and have for over 20 years. This isn’t a study from looking at photos. We see them live, up close, and in person every day.  In Marcus’ photos it looks like sunlight is throwing off the color. I can generally tell a pure like Filifera by just looking at the frond color. They are much duller than a Robusta. 

That "dull" changes in an acidic soil.  Easily seen in Maui.

And sunlight(backlight) as you mentioned.

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@MarcusH Those fronds look a very vibrant deep green. It could well be a Filifera, or it could be another hybrid leaning towards Filifera. There’s no doubt the thorn arrangement and hastate look very Filifera-like, but I think the jury may be out on those. It’s quite possible that the Filifera you collected seed from had been pollenated by a nearby hybrid, in which case those offspring would be Filifera dominant hybrids. It does looks a bit too green to me, although it could just be the sun on it.

@jwitt As for the native stand in Palm Springs, I don’t doubt that the bigger parent plants are pure Filifera clearly, but how sure are you that nearby Robusta’s, or hybrids, haven’t pollenated any of them? That one you posted has quite a bit of coloration on the petiole base. Some sources say pure Filifera should have no colouration at all, while others say they can have a very slight bit of red/brown on the petiole bases. That one you posted has purple/brown colouring however, which is a robusta trait. I’m not saying it isn’t a Filifera, but it certainly raises questions about its purity.

A lot of Filiferas have the same characteristics over here.  The only palms that were close were Sabal Mexicana,  no Robusta nothing . When I took the picture of my filifera the sun was already shinning on the palm . I'm sure there are some variation within the Filifera family but down the road who cares ? As long as it looks like a California fan palm and is as cold hardy as one I don't care if it doesn't have the off green color or no teeth at the end of the petiole.  The Filiferas over here are all cold hardy and beautiful that all matters.  I've bought mine from a guy who has a small nursery.  

[MarcusH]

4 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

A lot of Filiferas have the same characteristics over here.  The only palms that were close were Sabal Mexicana,  no Robusta nothing . When I took the picture of my filifera the sun was already shinning on the palm . I'm sure there are some variation within the Filifera family but down the road who cares ? As long as it looks like a California fan palm and is as cold hardy as one I don't care if it doesn't have the off green color or no teeth at the end of the petiole.  The Filiferas over here are all cold hardy and beautiful that all matters.  I've bought mine from a guy who has a small nursery.  

What also plays a role could be soil type , sun exposure (latitude/shade) ,fertilization and watering. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

Here is a frond color comparison between a filibusta and a classic filifera in Sicily Italy

[Axel Amsterdam]

I am still puzzled on this one, it looks filifera but different. Is this a type that can be seen in Texas? I have the same plant, it has incredibly long hastula’s

[Axel Amsterdam]

These type of hastula’s 

[Axel Amsterdam]

Detail

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Exact same palms.  Parking garage at the California, Las Vegas, NV 

You can even see the Grand hotel. For reference if needed for street view.  

No tricks, nothing to hide.

I wasn't suggesting you were trying to be sly or anything lol. I just wanted some clarity on those specimens if they are in fact Robusta's without any coloration on the petiole bases.

They certainly look very, very Robusta-like but I'm still not convinced they are pure. I uploaded a London one recently with similar size trunk girth to some of these (where the trunk boots haven't been lost yet), which @Xenon said was a mutt/hybrid. These ones are certainly taller, but the upper trunks of some of these are just as thick as that one I posted, which raises questions about their purity, especially with the very green petiole bases. Some look thinner than others. Maybe it's just natural variation within the species.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by UK_Palms

[SailorBold]

Every filifera I ever got that was sourced out of Texas ended up being Filifera x Robusta... which like Robusta..and the Robusta x Filifera... burn at 18-20f.  

[jwitt]

43 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I wasn't suggesting you were trying to be sly or anything lol. I just wanted some clarity on those specimens if they are in fact Robusta's without any coloration on the petiole bases.

They certainly look very, very Robusta-like but I'm still not convinced they are pure. I uploaded a London one recently with similar size trunk girth to some of these (where the trunk boots haven't been lost yet), which @Xenon said was a mutt/hybrid. These ones are certainly taller, but the upper trunks of some of these are just as thick as that one I posted, which raises questions about their purity, especially with the very green petiole bases. Some look thinner than others. Maybe it's just natural variation within the species.

 

One is thick, one is not.  

T or C filifera vs LV robusta-huge difference 

In fact,  like 2 different species. 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by jwitt

[Jtee]

3 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

We see dozens if not hundreds of Filifera every day. We generally know what they look like. I pass about 40 or 50 Filifera on my way to work every day and have for over 20 years. This isn’t a study from looking at photos. We see them live, up close, and in person every day.  In Marcus’ photos it looks like sunlight is throwing off the color. I can generally tell a pure like Filifera by just looking at the frond color. They are much duller than a Robusta. 

Arnt the palms at the hospital at Creekside filiferas? I seen these two pictures online. How do they look now? 

 

[Meangreen94z]

I doubt there’s few if any pure Washingtonia filifera in central Texas. If it is pure it was something grown directly from seed collected in California, Nevada, Arizona habitat. Pretty much everything is Filibusta to varying degrees, the species more in the middle seemed to have a better recovery rate from wet 2021 cold over the stout filifera appearing specimen. Just my observation in the Austin area.

[Arecaceus]

I don't know why but seed pureness seems to be much better with these here in Europe. Every seed I got "robusta", "filifera" and "xfilibusta" turned out to be exactly that. No underlying mixture of any sort. Not even the filibusta, it actually looks like a 50/50 hybrid of both species. Plantings in the Mediterranean that are not self seeded also often seem to be very pure. It may be because they used to plant only one species in one area and they are not all over the place. I mean you see a lot of them but nowhere near as often as in the US. Same with CIDP.

[Meangreen94z]

35 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

I don't know why but seed pureness seems to be much better with these here in Europe. Every seed I got "robusta", "filifera" and "xfilibusta" turned out to be exactly that. No underlying mixture of any sort. Not even the filibusta, it actually looks like a 50/50 hybrid of both species. Plantings in the Mediterranean that are not self seeded also often seem to be very pure. It may be because they used to plant only one species in one area and they are not all over the place. I mean you see a lot of them but nowhere near as often as in the US. Same with CIDP.

Well you somewhat answered it. The palm growers sell these by the millions in the lower U.S. . Outside of desert towns pure blood filifera doesn’t do well. Robusta is typically preferred for its fast growth rate and wet tolerance, but it had weak hardiness. So they hybridized the two to make filifera faster growing and more wet(and subsequently wet cold tolerant), while gaining filiferas overall hardiness. Hybrids of course vary, especially once you start backcrossing. 99% of people are palm stupid. They just want a palm, and the nursery doesn’t want them back complaining the palm died. So that is why Filibusta is the rampant choice. It doesn’t hurt that Washingtonia rapidly produce seed and “volunteer” palm seedlings with whatever other Washingtonia are growing in the area.

Theres a good chance your filifera seed themselves aren’t pure. It’s a subject that’s been brought up before. Outside of the few naturally occurring habitats, pure filifera is extremely rare. Even if it has most traits. There used to be a graphic around that showed traits of pure vs. any robusta blood.

[Arecaceus]

35 minutes ago, Meangreen94z said:

Well you somewhat answered it. The palm growers sell these by the millions in the lower U.S. . Outside of desert towns pure blood filifera doesn’t do well. Robusta is typically preferred for its fast growth rate and wet tolerance, but it had weak hardiness. So they hybridized the two to make filifera faster growing and more wet(and subsequently wet cold tolerant), while gaining filiferas overall hardiness. Hybrids of course vary, especially once you start backcrossing. 99% of people are palm stupid. They just want a palm, and the nursery doesn’t want them back complaining the palm died. So that is why Filibusta is the rampant choice. It doesn’t hurt that Washingtonia rapidly produce seed and “volunteer” palm seedlings with whatever other Washingtonia are growing in the area.

Theres a good chance your filifera seed themselves aren’t pure. It’s a subject that’s been brought up before. Outside of the few naturally occurring habitats, pure filifera is extremely rare. Even if it has most traits. There used to be a graphic around that showed traits of pure vs. any robusta blood.

That makes a lot of sense. One option that comes to my mind is that a lot of the seeds I get here (palms and non natives in general) seem to come directly from natural habitats. Except for things without real habitats. From my perception in this forum in the US people get their seed way more often from cultivated plants. Commercialisation might also affect the Washy pureness in Europe soon, because as you see them more often at stores there are a lot of filibusta looking ones that are labled as robusta. Not too long ago filibusta was a special thing here and they were more expensive and intentionally marketed as such because of their "best of both worlds" traits. But that was for palm growers. As soon as they get into the average persons store they are just palms, so it might become the same. Anyway I always thought of collecting pure seeds one day while visiting one of their natural oasis.

[Jubaea_James760]

Washingtonia filifera "Coachella"

I didn't see any Robusta/Filibusta around for miles. Do these count as "pure" filifera? Are the Joshua Tree filifera's more isolated from other non native Washingtonia?