17 year ago today - the great California Freeze

[DoomsDave]

I remember it well. Four days of temps in the mid twenties F and it was carnage.

Anyone remember?

[quaman58]

That I do Dave. I had just started this madness, and had a number of small plants just melt. There were Washingtonias in the canyon down the hill that were defoliated, although they did survive. If I recall correctly, that was the event that prompted the “freeze damage “ section of the forum.

[DoomsDave]

I had a good sized Roystonea oleracea die and fall over. 😪

[quaman58]

I seem to remember that you had a large fan blowing toward it attempting to ward off the effects of the cold. Apparently that didn’t work..

[Tyrone]

Was that 17 years ago? Man I'm getting old.

I think that was the year that RLR passed too. 2006 was a sad time for the palm forum. 

[Patrick]

I think we're STILL rockin' that event in the cold damage forum lol! It has proven very useful to many over the years, I'm sure...

 

Yeah, I remeber it. It killed all LA's pigmy dates! I think you shared the pictures from downtown! Made them look trash, anyways. The landscapers have no patience to let things re-grow. All were replaced.

 

Killed the hell out of my yard up here in Nor-Cal; but it was a young yard then and everything was juvenile. Taught me to make a tough canopy for frost protection. The survivors are all 15' of trunk up now. Their war wounds are barely noticeable. Here we are 17 years later and I start to get to dabble with understory delicate things. I will soon be reminded why I needed to remember 2007, no doubt. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Patrick

[Jubaea_James760]

I was a newbie & I only had 1 palm, a  Washingtonia robusta. About a 5 gallon size, I planted it in 2005 & it hadn't done much growing. Probably because I dug it up from my uncles house & transplanted it shortly after. We had a low of 13f durning that event & I thought it was a goner.

July 2021 admiring it from afar

[Palm Tree Jim]

Remember it well. 

It was the first time I realized just how important a canopy can be. 

 

[Tracy]

I did better than most living in my Carlsbad home at that time.   I lost 1 of two young Wodyetia bifurcation, but having some King palm and Kentia canopy must have helped.  I don't recall if I moved small potted cycads into my garage or moved them under a Hong Kong orchid tree which of course had plenty of foliage in January, but didn't lose any of them either. 

The reality hit at the end of the event when I was driving up the 15 corridor ro Riverside County to visit customers.   All along the way I saw the damage,  with Washingtonias that were fried.

[JubaeaMan138]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

I did better than most living in my Carlsbad home at that time.   I lost 1 of two young Wodyetia bifurcation, but having some King palm and Kentia canopy must have helped.  I don't recall if I moved small potted cycads into my garage or moved them under a Hong Kong orchid tree which of course had plenty of foliage in January, but didn't lose any of them either. 

The reality hit at the end of the event when I was driving up the 15 corridor ro Riverside County to visit customers.   All along the way I saw the damage,  with Washingtonias that were fried.

Icky 15 corridor in riverside is not far from me . That’s scary . I’ve been in the home for 6 years garden is about 4 years old so far lowest my yard has seen is 38 I haven’t seen a freeze in my yard yet. Property is on a slope facing south east . Air drainage is excellent . Actually it’s built on a avacado and citrus grove  . Slightly elevated on a hillside 

[Tracy]

44 minutes ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

Icky 15 corridor in riverside is not far from me . That’s scary . I’ve been in the home for 6 years garden is about 4 years old so far lowest my yard has seen is 38 I haven’t seen a freeze in my yard yet. Property is on a slope facing south east . Air drainage is excellent . Actually it’s built on a avacado and citrus grove  . Slightly elevated on a hillside 

That's all positive.  Many of us that grew up in Southern California near citrus and Avocado 🥑 groves remember how growers protected their crops on the cold nights by firing up the smudge pots.  Not an option today though.  Canopy that endures the chills are your best friends. 

[awkonradi]

Is it true that Los Angeles and San Diego experience hard freezes as often as San Francisco?

[Darold Petty]

The last serious frost I can remember was  circa 1998, about 26F for four consecutive nights.  

[Jim in Los Altos]

37 minutes ago, awkonradi said:

Is it true that Los Angeles and San Diego experience hard freezes as often as San Francisco?

SF is 10a-10b and manages to escape freezes for the most part. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

That (2007) was the last time we went below freezing here in my Bay Area location. We had a low of 27°F. Just superficial bronzing on the more tender stuff. Lots of my palms are under canopy so even small Licuala we’re unscathed. Completely exposed palms like Pygmy Dates remained mostly green with some bronzing on their horizontal fronds. I remember the water in the cups of all my bromeliads (mostly Neoregelia) being frozen but even they escaped damage. That was when I decided to eventually make them a dominant plant type in the garden. They are tougher than I previously thought. 

[Tracy]

3 hours ago, awkonradi said:

Is it true that Los Angeles and San Diego experience hard freezes as often as San Francisco?

Answering the question accurately leads to a very deceptive answer.  Yes, in parts of Los Angeles and San Diego, there are definitely more hard freeze events than in San Francisco.  A quick search of the land mass and familiarity of the geography of the areas, sheds more light on this.  San Francisco is surrounded by water on 3 sides and consists of just under 47 square miles.

San Diego City is about 372 square miles and the county spans 4,2161 square miles.  Cuyamaca Peak and Palomar Mountain which are both in San Diego County regularly get snow and are at elevations in excess of 6,000 feet.  San Diego City limits extend north and east to the San Diego Zoo's Safari Park (formerly Wild Animal Park for those of a certain generation).  So lots of climate zones.

Los Angeles City is even bigger than the City of San Diego, spanning 502 square miles extending from the beaches to the foot of the mountains which separate it from the Central Valley. 

Bottom line, the area and geography of San Francisco leads to far fewer microclimates than the diversity represented in either Los Angeles or San Diego.  I can select areas equivalent in area to San Francisco in either San Diego or San Francisco that the same result wouldn't be true about hard freezes.  If one extended the boundary description from San Francisco east as far inland as the extreme locations in either Los Angeles or San Diego, you would definitely find more freeze events on the San Francisco side of the equation.  I hope that clarifies the answer.

[awkonradi]

2 hours ago, Tracy said:

Answering the question accurately leads to a very deceptive answer.  Yes, in parts of Los Angeles and San Diego, there are definitely more hard freeze events than in San Francisco.  A quick search of the land mass and familiarity of the geography of the areas, sheds more light on this.  San Francisco is surrounded by water on 3 sides and consists of just under 47 square miles.

San Diego City is about 372 square miles and the county spans 4,2161 square miles.  Cuyamaca Peak and Palomar Mountain which are both in San Diego County regularly get snow and are at elevations in excess of 6,000 feet.  San Diego City limits extend north and east to the San Diego Zoo's Safari Park (formerly Wild Animal Park for those of a certain generation).  So lots of climate zones.

Los Angeles City is even bigger than the City of San Diego, spanning 502 square miles extending from the beaches to the foot of the mountains which separate it from the Central Valley. 

Bottom line, the area and geography of San Francisco leads to far fewer microclimates than the diversity represented in either Los Angeles or San Diego.  I can select areas equivalent in area to San Francisco in either San Diego or San Francisco that the same result wouldn't be true about hard freezes.  If one extended the boundary description from San Francisco east as far inland as the extreme locations in either Los Angeles or San Diego, you would definitely find more freeze events on the San Francisco side of the equation.  I hope that clarifies the answer.

I should have been more specific.  Do Venice Beach in LA, or Mission Beach in SD, experience hard freezes as often as Ocean Beach in SF?  I am just curious.  I acknowledge this is minutiae.  Obviously, warmth-loving plants are much more viable in southern CA.

[Tracy]

2 hours ago, awkonradi said:

I should have been more specific.  Do Venice Beach in LA, or Mission Beach in SD, experience hard freezes as often as Ocean Beach in SF?  I am just curious.  I acknowledge this is minutiae.  Obviously, warmth-loving plants are much more viable in southern CA.

I can't answer Venice or Mission Beach specifically.  I know that South Mission can get more drainage of cold air coming down the valley than say North Pacific Beach or most of La Jolla, just do to where the river valleys dump the cold air on cold clear nights.  I religiously check wind, water temps and swell in predawn hours every day for surfing.  Close to home for me are two readings that can have a 10 degree swing in the same city of Encinitas. The cold one is in the middle of a a river valley between Cardiff Reef and Seaside Reef in the southwestern edge of the city, because it has a river valley to the east funneling cold air down it.  Just about 2 and a half miles north in downtown Encinitas at Moonlight Beach I regularly see it several degrees warmer because it isn't getting that flow.  So it will depend on where one lives even right along the coast here due to how the cold funnels down the coastal canyons. 

Bottom line, there are some spots that probably get more freezes than OB in San Francisco, others that get less and some equal down here.  Overall, we do get less marine layer and more clear days and average warmer on the coast down here.  I'm pretty familiar with weather in the City, having lived in both the East Bay and South Bay with family in the Marina, Richmond, Twin Peaks and Mission District over the years I lived up there.  The house on Twin Peaks Blvd. seemed stuck in the same temperature and fog year round, even when it was somewhat clear down in the Mission.  So there are definitely microclimates in the Bay Area as well.  For growing palms, I think Venice and Mission Beach in San Diego will generally have a big plus in the ability to grow a wider range of species than in the Outer Sunset.  My friend Darold can weigh in since he lives there.

[DoomsDave]

22 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Was that 17 years ago? Man I'm getting old.

I think that was the year that RLR passed too. 2006 was a sad time for the palm forum. 

It was January 2007.

Yeah, I remember Robert Lee Riffle passed too. Damn. 😢

[Foxpalms]

8 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

That (2007) was the last time we went below freezing here in my Bay Area location. We had a low of 27°F. Just superficial bronzing on the more tender stuff. Lots of my palms are under canopy so even small Licuala we’re unscathed. Completely exposed palms like Pygmy Dates remained mostly green with some bronzing on their horizontal fronds. I remember the water in the cups of all my bromeliads (mostly Neoregelia) being frozen but even they escaped damage. That was when I decided to eventually make them a dominant plant type in the garden. They are tougher than I previously thought. 

I left some of the "zone 11" bromeliads out this winter and they have been fine here. They are hardier than advertised as.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Foxpalms

[DoomsDave]

Oh yeah. It was January 13 to 16, from Saturday night to Tuesday morning, Martin Luther King Day weekend. 
 

That Saturday I was jazzed for a long weekend, and I partied hearty, sang a bunch of karaoke songs, and went to bed. Got up Saturday morning and tuned in to Palm Talk, and noted extensive gnashing of teeth and other body parts.

I hadn’t been outside yet ……

[DoomsDave]

10 hours ago, JubaeaMan138 said:

Icky 15 corridor in riverside is not far from me . That’s scary . I’ve been in the home for 6 years garden is about 4 years old so far lowest my yard has seen is 38 I haven’t seen a freeze in my yard yet. Property is on a slope facing south east . Air drainage is excellent . Actually it’s built on a avacado and citrus grove  . Slightly elevated on a hillside 

Yep! My garden is in the same basic situation. I was annoyed, but some had it MUCH much worse, yike a Rooney!

[DoomsDave]

23 hours ago, quaman58 said:

That I do Dave. I had just started this madness, and had a number of small plants just melt. There were Washingtonias in the canyon down the hill that were defoliated, although they did survive. If I recall correctly, that was the event that prompted the “freeze damage “ section of the forum.

I think you’re right.

[DoomsDave]

16 hours ago, Palm Tree Jim said:

Remember it well. 

It was the first time I realized just how important a canopy can be. 

 

Oh, yeah, me, too. A few months earlier, @MattyB and @BS Man about Palms delivered me a nice 25+ gallon  Teddy Bear which I parked under a giant cedar, and which survived the freeze, and which I have to this day, in the ground. That cedar protected a lot.

[Meangreen94z]

Dave,  the first step to jinxing yourself is to bring up the last “great freeze”. The next step is to talk about how mild it’s been since then. The last step is to claim all indicators are it will never happen again, thanks to global warming, etc. You might as well start ordering the Christmas lights, tarps, and generator.😄

[LJG]

Wow, 17 years! I was a newbie as well. Only on my second winter in a new garden from a dirt lot. I lost every new palm I bough from JDA nursery - and there were a lot. Like Jim, I learned about canopy as I had very little at the time. Those under a few trees did fine. I’ll get a pic of a historic record of the freeze from a R rivularis that had the head freeze off but came back. 

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

This post brings back some memories. Thankfully 2007 skipped the Bay Area but unfortunately it hit Southern California instead, which is an odd but not unheard of event. Maybe someone can chime in as to why.

I don't miss fretting about Winter freezes. I remember 1998, it got so cold in the Bay area. I used to be glued to forecasts every evening when a freeze was imminent to decide if I needed to cover plants or not.

Now, Ironically I look forward to those crisp Winter Mornings in the low 50's we get once in a while here in Hawaii, they're a treat. Here we have other problems, for example East Hawaii is under a flash drought right now, no rain since mid December and that is  damaging to rainforest palms used to copious rainfall. And we have nasty bugs like cane borers that will destroy the most beautiful Pritchardia and banana moths that have a real appetite for many New Caledonia palms. And the native coconut leaf roller ruins beautiful coconut palms. 

[bubba]

This topic is very interesting to a Florida native, who has an extremely limited understanding of the California winter climate. The specific points made by Tracy are highly instructive. 

Jim in Los Altos has a climate that is truly amazing when you consider latitude. I believe another factor to be considered in his success is his superior treatment of his garden. The same is true with Darold, whose acumen is well known.

DoomsDave has presented a topic that has brought out interesting comments from a great group of long time palmtalkers (old folks?)! We are all hanging in there and looking for that unexpected palm that we never thought could grow in our climate. Tyrone and Dave’s reference to Robert Lee Riffle is interesting as he actually assisted me in setting up my password many years ago so I could gain entry to palm talk. Dave partying karaoke on the night of the freeze is priceless!
 

 

 

[Darold Petty]

10 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Dave,  the first step to jinxing yourself is to bring up the last “great freeze”. 

It seems that the "freeze of the century"  occurs about every 25-30 years !

[Matt in OC]

Wasn't 2007 16 years ago? 😁

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, Matt in OC said:

Wasn't 2007 16 years ago? 😁

Long enough to feel old!

[BayAndroid]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:49 AM, Darold Petty said:

The last serious frost I can remember was  circa 1998, about 26F for four consecutive nights.  

If it got that cold there... Man, my yard would be a complete scrape and reset... I got 26 just this March! 

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:18 PM, DoomsDave said:

Long enough to feel old!

Even worse it one already felt old 16 years ago.

[Patrick]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:37 AM, bubba said:

This topic is very interesting to a Florida native, who has an extremely limited understanding of the California winter climate. The specific points made by Tracy are highly instructive. 

Jim in Los Altos has a climate that is truly amazing when you consider latitude. I believe another factor to be considered in his success is his superior treatment of his garden. The same is true with Darold, whose acumen is well known.

DoomsDave has presented a topic that has brought out interesting comments from a great group of long time palmtalkers (old folks?)! We are all hanging in there and looking for that unexpected palm that we never thought could grow in our climate. Tyrone and Dave’s reference to Robert Lee Riffle is interesting as he actually assisted me in setting up my password many years ago so I could gain entry to palm talk. Dave partying karaoke on the night of the freeze is priceless!
 

 

So many microclimates out here. While the folks in the immediate bay area have a certain degree of marine protection, us folks an hour outside the bay influence wind up with a different hand of cards. I think we got to 22 or so on those really cold nights....

Edited January 20, 2023 by Patrick

[doubravsky]

I remember the 2007 freeze here in Riverside well. Fortunately, after the carnage of the 2004 freeze, I added a bunch of syagrus for canopy and came through 2007 pretty unfazed. Now, 2004 was a different story! It was like someone dropped napalm on my yard! I remember at the start of the weekend watching it snow in my backyard thinking "uh oh". 

[BayAndroid]

To spook you guys, here, check out this morning. Man I got a lame microclimate. 

[BS Man about Palms]

I remember it well, .. I had been into palms for a bit over 2 years and some somewhat mild winters where I was under the impression it was an easy hobby! My back yard hit 26F for 2 nights and 28F for 2 more, only 1.25 miles from the coast. 
What it DID do is give us invaluable data to start the freeze damage forum for all to learn from. Many surprises and discoveries were made, some superstars thought to tender were less so than thought and a few that were wimps under stress. The surprise I always remember was Chambeyronia macrocarpa. They looked fine, some other palms were brown the morning, a large part more were brown within a day or two. But the Chamby's were deceptive to take nearly a week to turn brown... leading to some brief hope they were undamaged.
The DoomsDave delivery was a good thing and Thanks to all that made it happen.

After that episode and for a couple more years of late night, early am worries and going outside to see how cold, check temps etc., I adopted the "Schrodinger's Cat" approach to cold weather here. If I don't get up, or go check outside..it didn't get that cold  I watch weather reports and if @33-34 is predicted, I bring a few tender seedlings inside overnight.. other than that, it's every palm for themselves! 

[MattyB]

I remember well.  I had a sticky note on my desk for years, listing the consecutive days temps that were well below freezing:  24f, 25f, 27f, 29f, ...there were at least five days in the 20s at my place in Lemon Grove.  Later that year I met my now neighbor Bob Hastings and as we walked around his Spring Valley garden I asked how cold he got back in January and he walked me over to a hi-lo thermometer mounted to a tall pine tree.  He said he hadn't reset it yet from winter and it read 38f.  The unblemished banana trees in the neighborhood confirmed this.  Within a few months we had bought the property next door to Bob and started Manambe Lavaka, our current garden.  In 17 years I've never seen below 36f (except for down in the bottom of the canyon) with most years bottoming out at 42f.

[DoomsDave]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:25 PM, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

Even worse it one already felt old 16 years ago.

I didn't back then. Plenty of energy to dig and plant, and plant and dig etc. Strong like bull, even when I bathed . . . .

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:42 AM, DoomsDave said:

I didn't back then. Plenty of energy to dig and plant, and plant and dig etc. Strong like bull, even when I bathed . . . .

TMI