Sabal mexicana

[Will]

Hi,

I have been growing different from seed this past year and I noticed some differences from the seedlings I got as "Sabal mexicana" seeds. The seed size was super huge compared to the palmetto, minor, brazoriensis or causiarum, but also the growth seems to look different.

The bright green and softer leaves confuse me a bit, since all other Sabal seedlings I grew have the same dark green and stiff leaves.

Also the "mexicana" seedlings grow faster and bigger than the others. Are "mexicana" seedlings supposed to look like that or might it be a Domingensis?

[Little Tex]

Thats interesting, most mexicana's ive seen at that size are a deep green like the palmetto.

The seeds should have been signifigantly bigger than the palmettos, probably about the size of a peanut, where did you source them?

[Will]

1 hour ago, Little Tex said:

Thats interesting, most mexicana's ive seen at that size are a deep green like the palmetto.

The seeds should have been signifigantly bigger than the palmettos, probably about the size of a peanut, where did you source them?

I got them on Ebay, french seller. Interesting thing is that all the seedlings of that batch came out like that. Seeds were super huge.

[Phoenikakias]

22 hours ago, Will said:

Hi,

I have been growing different from seed this past year and I noticed some differences from the seedlings I got as "Sabal mexicana" seeds. The seed size was super huge compared to the palmetto, minor, brazoriensis or causiarum, but also the growth seems to look different.

The bright green and softer leaves confuse me a bit, since all other Sabal seedlings I grew have the same dark green and stiff leaves.

Also the "mexicana" seedlings grow faster and bigger than the others. Are "mexicana" seedlings supposed to look like that or might it be a Domingensis?

According to a personal discussion with Scott S mexicana seeds may be equally big to those of S bermudana.

[Fusca]

Sabal mexicana are some of the largest Sabal seeds that I have seen.  Riverside might be slightly larger and domingensis are about equal.  Assuming that all of the seeds that I received were labeled correctly miamiensis, palmetto, 'Lisa', causiarum, minor, etonia, maritima, and uresana are smaller and very close to each other in size while mauritiformis, rosei and yapa seem to be the smallest.  I received some burmudana seeds from @aztropic and it seems to me that they were closer in size to guatemalensis (slightly smaller than mexicana) but I didn't have a large enough sample to say that the seeds I had were representative in size.

[Will]

8 hours ago, Fusca said:

Sabal mexicana are some of the largest Sabal seeds that I have seen.  Riverside might be slightly larger and domingensis are about equal.  Assuming that all of the seeds that I received were labeled correctly miamiensis, palmetto, 'Lisa', causiarum, minor, etonia, maritima, and uresana are smaller and very close to each other in size while mauritiformis, rosei and yapa seem to be the smallest.  I received some burmudana seeds from @aztropic and it seems to me that they were closer in size to guatemalensis (slightly smaller than mexicana) but I didn't have a large enough sample to say that the seeds I had were representative in size.

How did the seedlings look like? Did some of them also have that bright green colour?

[WaianaeCrider]

Beware, when mature they will drop hundreds of seeds.  Around here I have to kill all the seedlings or they'd take over m y yard.

 

[Will]

6 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Beware, when mature they will drop hundreds of seeds.  Around here I have to kill all the seedlings or they'd take over m y yard.

 

It will take decades around here before it will produce seeds I think, if they dont get killed by some cold winter 

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Will said:

It will take decades around here before it will produce seeds I think, if they dont get killed by some cold winter 

If it is a hybrid with minor inside, which is often the case with many Sabal plants inEurope, it will not wait an eternity to bloom...

[Will]

Do they cross that easily?

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

If it is a hybrid with minor inside, which is often the case with many Sabal plants inEurope, it will not wait an eternity to bloom...

 

[Fusca]

12 hours ago, Will said:

How did the seedlings look like? Did some of them also have that bright green colour?

They do but the color can vary based on growing conditions.  For example if the seed prematurely broke away from the seedling it would lack some nutrients it normally would get from the seed.  Or possibly lack of sunlight.  Sabal seedlings in my opinion are next to impossible to differentiate without the seed size.  Mexicana do grow faster than most other Sabal species so yours is likely mexicana and will probably green up in time.

[WaianaeCrider]

5 hours ago, Will said:

It will take decades around here before it will produce seeds I think, if they dont get killed by some cold winter 

I have 3 and they started to seed after about  15 years.  Well maybe 20.  LOL

[Will]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

They do but the color can vary based on growing conditions.  For example if the seed prematurely broke away from the seedling it would lack some nutrients it normally would get from the seed.  Or possibly lack of sunlight.  Sabal seedlings in my opinion are next to impossible to differentiate without the seed size.  Mexicana do grow faster than most other Sabal species so yours is likely mexicana and will probably green up in time.

Thing is I got 2 Mexicana seed batches from different locations. The one from Italy looks normal like the other Sabals. The whole batch from France looks bright green and got wider leaves. All my Sabals grow in the same conditions.

[Will]

1 hour ago, WaianaeCrider said:

I have 3 and they started to seed after about  15 years.  Well maybe 20.  LOL

In your climate haha I might have to wait 30+ years then^^

[Fusca]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:15 PM, Will said:

Thing is I got 2 Mexicana seed batches from different locations. The one from Italy looks normal like the other Sabals. The whole batch from France looks bright green and got wider leaves. All my Sabals grow in the same conditions.

I see, so you grew them from seed yourself and the one you have pictured is from France, right?  Were the seeds from Italy the same size as the ones from France?  And is the mexicana from France growing faster than the mexicana from Italy or just faster than other Sabal species?  I'd think that perhaps the mexicana from France might be a hybrid (if it's growing faster than the Italian mexicana) with mexicana being the mother palm since the seeds were huge.  All of the domingensis seedlings I have grown looked very similar to mexicana but I think the mexicana were a bit faster (I didn't grow them at the same time so not sure about that).  The only color variation that I have noted with Sabal species is that some have more of a blue tint to them (or blue like the highlands uresana) but all of the seedlings that I have grown have been 100% outdoors so perhaps indoor lighting might effect the color somewhat.

[Will]

11 hours ago, Fusca said:

I see, so you grew them from seed yourself and the one you have pictured is from France, right?  Were the seeds from Italy the same size as the ones from France?  And is the mexicana from France growing faster than the mexicana from Italy or just faster than other Sabal species?  I'd think that perhaps the mexicana from France might be a hybrid (if it's growing faster than the Italian mexicana) with mexicana being the mother palm since the seeds were huge.  All of the domingensis seedlings I have grown looked very similar to mexicana but I think the mexicana were a bit faster (I didn't grow them at the same time so not sure about that).  The only color variation that I have noted with Sabal species is that some have more of a blue tint to them (or blue like the highlands uresana) but all of the seedlings that I have grown have been 100% outdoors so perhaps indoor lighting might effect the color somewhat.

Seeds from Italy where a bit smaller, the mother plant didn't look that strong and was growing in quite a bit of shade.

The seedlings were all growing outside last year. They were inside the greenhouse with probably to hot temps since most of them stopped growing. Only "Mexicana" seemed to like the super high temps. They got enough light and I fertilized them. 

Found some pics of the seeds from France

Edited February 5, 2023 by Will

[Phoenikakias]

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

I see, so you grew them from seed yourself and the one you have pictured is from France, right?  Were the seeds from Italy the same size as the ones from France?  And is the mexicana from France growing faster than the mexicana from Italy or just faster than other Sabal species?  I'd think that perhaps the mexicana from France might be a hybrid (if it's growing faster than the Italian mexicana) with mexicana being the mother palm since the seeds were huge.  All of the domingensis seedlings I have grown looked very similar to mexicana but I think the mexicana were a bit faster (I didn't grow them at the same time so not sure about that).  The only color variation that I have noted with Sabal species is that some have more of a blue tint to them (or blue like the highlands uresana) but all of the seedlings that I have grown have been 100% outdoors so perhaps indoor lighting might effect the color somewhat.

Sabal spp hybridize more frequently than often believed. Sceptists argue that monoecism reduces considerably chances of hybridism, but they tend to overlook natural methods of inbreed prevention (different time  of fertility between female and male reproductive organs) and the fact of enormous widespread of hybridization within the monoecious genus of Washingtonia. I have come across specimens in Europe, which bloom prior to any trunk formation, but those specimens are supposed to belong to spp with prominent trunks. The only Sabal sp that blooms prior to trunk formation should be mexicana according to the Field Guide to the Palms of Americas.

In another instance a very experienced palm collector visited the Sabal collection of a very prominent family in France to help to the identification of the specimens.  He confessed to me, that none of the specimens needing identification complied with the identification key. 

Besides, if we look carefully in to the individual description of each sp, we will realise, that the variation in the size of fruits and seeds even within the same sp can be considerable.

Look what I had received once from USA and especially the variation in the seed size of bermudana.

And here are  fruits and seeds from the specimen which was said it may be mexicana and from a specimen of my own, probably louisiana or hybrid.

[Fusca]

9 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Besides, if we look carefully in to the individual description of each sp, we will realise, that the variation in the size of fruits and seeds even within the same sp can be considerable.

I agree, I've seen some seed size variation in mexicana and palmetto, but nothing as variable as what you have there with bermudana!  From what I've seen typically with the bigger seeds of mexicana (from a single crop from a single palm) is perhaps 2-3mm of variation but the vast majority are within 1mm of the standard size.

What confuses me is with Sabal riverside.  Like your photo I've seen many photos here and elsewhere showing small seeds but I have personally collected seeds from palms in Riverside, CA Miami, FL (at a botanical garden) and a collector here in Texas and the seeds we're always as large or larger than mexicana.  Even a grower in CA told me that the seeds we're large.  I'm curious to know where you sourced your riverside seeds.

[Will]

A friends who also ordered some of the same seed source. Also really bright leaf colour. Weird..

[Phoenikakias]

Here are in a community pot several seedlings supposed to be mexicana. Although pictures shot at night, this is their true color because I avoided using flash light.  I am not sure however if they are truely mexicana, since seeds were rather small. I suspect another hybrid with minor.

[Fusca]

I would agree with you, seed looks too small for mexicana.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Fusca