Livistona Nitida

[ahmedshareev3]

Hello, is Livistona Nitida as hardy as Livistona Chinesis? I heard that is grows faster, and I am wondering if this will be a die back palm tree. If it isn't, which Livistona is fast growing and can surivive 7b other than China Fan Palm

[Fusca]

5 minutes ago, ahmedshareev3 said:

Hello, is Livistona Nitida as hardy as Livistona Chinesis? I heard that is grows faster, and I am wondering if this will be a die back palm tree. If it isn't, which Livistona is fast growing and can surivive 7b other than China Fan Palm

It won't survive very long in 7b (it will be a die HARD palm tree).  It does indeed grow faster than chinensis with a lot of water and heat.  Two years ago I had both species (nitida was 3x larger) unprotected during our nasty 9°F with snow and freezing rain preceding the cold.  Only the chinensis survived after a trunk cut and I don't think the nitida would have survived 15°F.

[ahmedshareev3]

5 minutes ago, Fusca said:

It won't survive very long in 7b (it will be a die HARD palm tree).  It does indeed grow faster than chinensis with a lot of water and heat.  Two years ago I had both species (nitida was 3x larger) unprotected during our nasty 9°F with snow and freezing rain preceding the cold.  Only the chinensis survived after a trunk cut and I don't think the nitida would have survived 15°F.

If you have Chinesis, how long will a 5g plant take to reach 8-10 feet?

[Patrick]

29 minutes ago, ahmedshareev3 said:

If you have Chinesis, how long will a 5g plant take to reach 8-10 feet?

Where are you at? I'm zone 9 and both do equally fine here in my location. I've had a Livistona decora down to 22 and they did fine as juveniles. I think they're a little more hardy than a nitida, but I could be wrong. Correction, I am wrong as per Palmpedia.  Welcome to Palmtalk!

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Patrick

[ahmedshareev3]

9 minutes ago, Patrick said:

Where are you at? I'm zone 9 and both do equally fine here in my location. I've had a Livistona decora down to 22 and they did fine as juveniles. I think they're a little more hardy than a nitida, but I could be wrong. Correction, I am wrong as per Palmpedia.  Welcome to Palmtalk!

 

I am zone 7b border to 8a

[Fusca]

20 hours ago, ahmedshareev3 said:

If you have Chinesis, how long will a 5g plant take to reach 8-10 feet?

I'm not sure but in Maryland it is likely to spend a lot of the growing season recovering from the previous winter's damage which will slow it down.  They are somewhat slow even in ideal climate.

[Foxpalms]

Livistona chilensis grows leaves faster for me but Nitida grows faster vertically. Hope that helps. I think they would both need protection where you are.

[Little Tex]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:44 PM, ahmedshareev3 said:

I am zone 7b border to 8a

well just so your aware the location even just the state is helpful 7b/8a St.George Utah is a lot different then 7b/8a Baltimore.

[johnnymak]

22 hours ago, Little Tex said:

well just so your aware the location even just the state is helpful 7b/8a St.George Utah is a lot different then 7b/8a Baltimore.

Country even.

[Arecaceus]

From everything I've read in my climate the most likely to stand a chance long term of all Livistonas is L. nitida. It's the only Livistona I have and I don't have planted it yet and I'm still not sure if and when I will but I would and might also try a L. chinensis to compare it. L. nitida seems to do better long term in areas with dry and decently hot to very hot summers and L. chinensis seems to do better in hot humid areas and there it's often grown even in low USDA zones as a perennial grow back plant. Not sure if this is working so well in a climate like mine (comparable to some areas of the PNW). I would say without any personal experience that both are only fully hardy to zone 9a/b and up but at least L. chinensis can be grown in some zone 7 areas where there is enough hot humid weather to let it recover. L. nitida might be a plant to only recover from that once in a decade cold blast. If I plant my nitida out I will cover it on a thread on palmtalk surely.

[DAVEinMB]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:08 PM, ahmedshareev3 said:

If you have Chinesis, how long will a 5g plant take to reach 8-10 feet?

8-10ft of trunk? Not sure that is likely in 7b, 10-15 years in 8b would be my guess. Chinensis are slow growers but pick up some speed once they start to trunk. 

If you're looking for 8-10 feet foliage height you can get that in a couple years if you plant in a shady location and make sure to protect it good in the winter. 

[kristof p]

7 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

From everything I've read in my climate the most likely to stand a chance long term of all Livistonas is L. nitida. It's the only Livistona I have and I don't have planted it yet and I'm still not sure if and when I will but I would and might also try a L. chinensis to compare it. L. nitida seems to do better long term in areas with dry and decently hot to very hot summers and L. chinensis seems to do better in hot humid areas and there it's often grown even in low USDA zones as a perennial grow back plant. Not sure if this is working so well in a climate like mine (comparable to some areas of the PNW). I would say without any personal experience that both are only fully hardy to zone 9a/b and up but at least L. chinensis can be grown in some zone 7 areas where there is enough hot humid weather to let it recover. L. nitida might be a plant to only recover from that once in a decade cold blast. If I plant my nitida out I will cover it on a thread on palmtalk surely.

L. Nitida and L. Decora are less hardy for me then L. Chinensis. My chinensis has no damage again from the cold but the nitida and decora both spearpulled recently like they do in most winters.(they always recovered though) They are more leafhardy then chinensis but with a bit of fleeze the leaves of my chinensis stay undamaged at least till around -7 in other winters. Very slow growing but beautifull big leaves. I have it in the ground since 2006. 

[Arecaceus]

8 hours ago, kristof p said:

L. Nitida and L. Decora are less hardy for me then L. Chinensis. My chinensis has no damage again from the cold but the nitida and decora both spearpulled recently like they do in most winters.(they always recovered though) They are more leafhardy then chinensis but with a bit of fleeze the leaves of my chinensis stay undamaged at least till around -7 in other winters. Very slow growing but beautifull big leaves. I have it in the ground since 2006. 

Thanks that's great information! How cold does it get at your location in a normal winter? At your place, in your garden not at the weather station, if you know that? I think it might also depend on size, right?

[Chester B]

Livistona nitida looks flawless for me yet again and we had our coldest winter in a very long time.  Last year it started putting in some size and I expect even more this year  

 

Chinensis looks like garbage as usual. All fronds dead and spears are brown but have not pulled yet. Regardless chinensis is going in the garbage, not worth growing for me. They never look good.  Not a fast enough grower to ever get ahead, they seem to hate both sun and frost. 

[kristof p]

1 hour ago, Hortulanus said:

Thanks that's great information! How cold does it get at your location in a normal winter? At your place, in your garden not at the weather station, if you know that? I think it might also depend on size, right?

During normal winters I should see lows around -4°C/-5°C with only freezing temps in the night. Some winters it rarely freezes but during the more colder winters temps can go down to -7/-8. Coldest I have seen was -12 in 2010.  But most winters are mild and coldspells are short lived.    

To be fair I should plant a bigger decora and nitida to compare their hardiness with L. chinensis. My chinensies is a lot bigger then my decora and nitida who are still small plants (40cm high). The chinensis was protected during it's younger stages of life. There were lot's of other not hardy palms growing there in the past like a nice plectocomia himalayana for example. every winter I made a greenhouse over those plants with extra heat but 7 years ago I stopped building the greenhouse and all but the Livistona survived. (That big plectocomia was an awosome plant, I think it was around 5m high before it died. If I ever find anohter one I do it again just to see how hardy they are (it never saw any damage with the occasional early night frost before i putted up the greenhouse. ) 

[kristof p]

29 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Livistona nitida looks flawless for me yet again and we had our coldest winter in a very long time.  Last year it started putting in some size and I expect even more this year  

 

Chinensis looks like garbage as usual. All fronds dead and spears are brown but have not pulled yet. Regardless chinensis is going in the garbage, not worth growing for me. They never look good.  Not a fast enough grower to ever get ahead, they seem to hate both sun and frost. 

I pulled the spear on my small nitida a few days ago...this is not the first time and I have hopes it will recover again. If I use fleece on my chinensis it's always fine but the parts sticking out get burned eassily from the frost. It is indeed a slow grower in our climate and mine is planted in deep shade so is terribly slow but the reward I get is very big beautifull leaves

[Arecaceus]

20 minutes ago, kristof p said:

During normal winters I should see lows around -4°C/-5°C with only freezing temps in the night. Some winters it rarely freezes but during the more colder winters temps can go down to -7/-8. Coldest I have seen was -12 in 2010.  But most winters are mild and coldspells are short lived.    

To be fair I should plant a bigger decora and nitida to compare their hardiness with L. chinensis. My chinensies is a lot bigger then my decora and nitida who are still small plants (40cm high). The chinensis was protected during it's younger stages of life. There were lot's of other not hardy palms growing there in the past like a nice plectocomia himalayana for example. every winter I made a greenhouse over those plants with extra heat but 7 years ago I stopped building the greenhouse and all but the Livistona survived. (That big plectocomia was an awosome plant, I think it was around 5m high before it died. If I ever find anohter one I do it again just to see how hardy they are (it never saw any damage with the occasional early night frost before i putted up the greenhouse. ) 

Ok those conditions are somewhat similar to mine. Very interesting indeed. As L. nitida is the only one I have for I might that one first. That is IF I'm going to plant it out soon. I might first have to determine the right spot in the garden regarding sun/partial shade an microclimate. If I plant it in the front garden near the wall it might be fully hardy long term. We'll see. The fast growing aspect of L. nitida is very intriguing though. How hardy is a Plectocomia himalayana?

[Chester B]

4 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

The fast growing aspect of L. nitida is very intriguing though.

It doesn't grow fast for me at all, definitely slower than Trachycarpus.  I think they grow fast in hot places like Florida or Texas, that have good heat 9 months out of the year.

[Arecaceus]

40 minutes ago, Chester B said:

It doesn't grow fast for me at all, definitely slower than Trachycarpus.  I think they grow fast in hot places like Florida or Texas, that have good heat 9 months out of the year.

Ok thanks for sharing. For now in a pot it has grown as fast as some Phoenix palms for me. I don't have it that long. But they are surely faster than L. chinensis though, right?

[Swolte]

I echo many of the comments here. I grow both here in Central Texas zone 8b.

I treat the Chinensis as a perennial. Beautiful glossy leaves for 6 months is worth the somewhat tattered/brown look the other half of the year.  We have had some pretty harsh winters and its returned from each. It hasn't been able to grow enough to form a trunk. Note that I don't irrigate my palms (crappy water) and palms are largely on their own.

The Nitida is more leaf hardy and is able to form a trunk quite rapidly. I am not sure about its bud hardiness but I suspect it less than the chinensis. Mine has come back from spear pull. I am not sure if it able to survive in 8b without assistance. I could be wrong but I don't think there's enough people growing these palms at maturity to get a good sense of their lowest survivable temperature.

7b seems impossible without heavy protection for both. 

[Chester B]

15 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

But they are surely faster than L. chinensis though, right?

Yes quicker for sure.  Chinensis even in a pot seem to be slow.

My Livistona nitida has been in the ground for 3 winters now.  This winter was the coldest at -7.2C for two nights and the day in between was my coldest at -5C.

Pictures when I planted it in 2020 and more recent pictures from January of this year.  Note my hand in for size comparison.

[Arecaceus]

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

Yes quicker for sure.  Chinensis even in a pot seem to be slow.

My Livistona nitida has been in the ground for 3 winters now.  This winter was the coldest at -7.2C for two nights and the day in between was my coldest at -5C.

Pictures when I planted it in 2020 and more recent pictures from January of this year.  Note my hand in for size comparison.

Thanks for the pictures! At this stage they still look so much like a Trachycarpus. 😂 Especially the trunk. Still very beautiful. The leaves are so glossy. It also looks like it handled the cold well. It is close to the house though... Nice!

[Chester B]

2 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Thanks for the pictures! At this stage they still look so much like a Trachycarpus. 😂 Especially the trunk. Still very beautiful. The leaves are so glossy. It also looks like it handled the cold well. It is close to the house though... Nice!

Yes it does look too much like a Trachycarpus unfortunately.  The only difference is, its much more glossy and the spines on the petioles are wicked.

The house doesn't do much aside from block the wind.  This is in my backyard which is much shadier and cooler.  

[Arecaceus]

9 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Yes it does look too much like a Trachycarpus unfortunately.  The only difference is, its much more glossy and the spines on the petioles are wicked.

The house doesn't do much aside from block the wind.  This is in my backyard which is much shadier and cooler.  

OK. Yep but as soon as it starts to really trunk the trunk looks different and when they are really big they look very impressive. But for me it's just interesting to have one and Livistona is something completely different from the most common palms like Trachys for example. Especially in our cool winter regions. If they can handle occasional -5°C temperatures they are interesting to me.

[Chester B]

8 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

OK. Yep but as soon as it starts to really trunk the trunk looks different and when they are really big they look very impressive. But for me it's just interesting to have one and Livistona is something completely different from the most common palms like Trachys for example. Especially in our cool winter regions. If they can handle occasional -5°C temperatures they are interesting to me.

I know it will grow much faster this year.  Like with most palms the bigger they get the faster they grow.  And I do like the weeping look of Livistona when they're big.  To be honest I wasn't sure how it was going to do so I planted it there as it originally had overhead protection which is now gone.  So far so good with this one, I won't call it a success until it's gone through 10 winters.

[Arecaceus]

4 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I know it will grow much faster this year.  Like with most palms the bigger they get the faster they grow.  And I do like the weeping look of Livistona when they're big.  To be honest I wasn't sure how it was going to do so I planted it there as it originally had overhead protection which is now gone.  So far so good with this one, I won't call it a success until it's gone through 10 winters.

Yes true. Sometimes palms take damage randomly even in a milder winter than the ones they've breezed through before. For an exotic or more rare palm they're not too expensive at least over here in Europe so I think some experimenting is worth it and I also don't like to keep palms in pots. Usually only to collect some rare species that are not long term hardy or not hardy at all to my place. The weeping look is what I was talking about with looking impressive when big. To me they seem to be one of those border line palms in our climates where you might have a chance of long term success if there are enough normal to mild winters where they can establish and develop a size at which they can recover from a really bad once in every 10 years extreme winter. Yet to be proven still... Good luck with yours!