mid sized trees with densest canopy

[coco305]

I really like trees with super dense canopy. 

 

I like the Indian laurel, Laurel oak, Carolina cherry Laurel...ect 

I like them with waxy or leathery leaves and the densest canopy possible. 

any good ones for central Florida climate?  I think it's too cold for the Indian laurel

[Silas_Sancona]

17 hours ago, coco305 said:

I really like trees with super dense canopy. 

 

I like the Indian laurel, Laurel oak, Carolina cherry Laurel...ect 

I like them with waxy or leathery leaves and the densest canopy possible. 

any good ones for central Florida climate?  I think it's too cold for the Indian laurel

Which part of Central FL....  Near-er to the coast?, of center of the state?  South or North of say Orlando?   Regardless, would look into these over introduced things first:

Allspice, Pimenta doicea, and Bay Rum, Pimenta racemosa..  Lemon Bay Rum is nice too but not quite as cold hardy as the standard form of the species, ..or so i'd been told by several growers. 

Marlberry,  Ardisia escallonoides. Have one growing here, in the desert, where it can be cooler in the winter, that has done fine for 8 years -in a pot.

Jamaican Caper, Capparis cynophallophora.  Also growing it here. Same length of time, and in a pot. No problems w/ our winters / extra wet during wetter winters.

Myrsine / Colicwood, Myrsine cubana

Bahama Strongbark, Bourreria succulenta

Tough Bully, Sideroxylon tenax.. I had what i'm assuming is a bigger-leaved variant that was quite nice.. Undersides of the leaves are very coppery colored and soft to the touch. Another, bought from the same nursery, has smaller leaves / no copper colored undersides. Might be a rarer sp that got mixed up at the nursery.

Crabwood, Gymnanthes lucida, and SatinLeaf, Chrysophyllum oliviformae are trial-worthy if where you are located isn't a regular frost pocket..  Note that SatinLeaf can be touchy to transplant.

Pepper Cinnamon / Winter / White Cinnamon ( NOT related to true Cinnamon / Cinnamomum Genus sp. ) Canella winterana  is another trial-worthy species for areas outside of S. FL. depending on proximity to either coast.

For introduced things, would research some of the Eugenia that produce edible Fruit ..Grumichama, Jaboticaba, Pitomba, Cherry of the Rio Grande, etc.. before things like non-native Ficus.





 

[Merlyn]

@Silas_Sanconaany thoughts on a short, dense tree or shrub for PM shade?  I have Viburnum Odoratissum on the SW side, where it gets full sun in the AM but shade by 1-2PM from the neighbor's water oaks.  They've grown pretty well as a hedge but with two main issues...

• By the time they get to 10-15' tall the bottom 6' is sparse of leaves.  In full sun on the SE side they are still fairly dense down low, and do a good job of blocking sight and sound.  But on the SW side I think they don't get enough sun to really grow low leaves.
• They have a habit of randomly dying.  Apparently it's a root disease Armarilla root rot, or a rust fungus on the leaves.  I lost 3 Viburnum this year, leaving big holes in the hedge.  Basically it looks fine and then by the time I notice something's wrong all the leaves fall off and it dies.

I looked into a few "large shrubs" like Aucuba Japonica, but am also thinking about something like a short, dense tree and growing Zamia Furfuracea under it.  They can quickly grow to 4-6' tall in shade and are 25F hardy if protected by canopy.  Are any of your suggestions suitable for AM sun/PM shade and might stay dense?

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@Silas_Sanconaany thoughts on a short, dense tree or shrub for PM shade?  I have Viburnum Odoratissum on the SW side, where it gets full sun in the AM but shade by 1-2PM from the neighbor's water oaks.  They've grown pretty well as a hedge but with two main issues...

• By the time they get to 10-15' tall the bottom 6' is sparse of leaves.  In full sun on the SE side they are still fairly dense down low, and do a good job of blocking sight and sound.  But on the SW side I think they don't get enough sun to really grow low leaves.
• They have a habit of randomly dying.  Apparently it's a root disease Armarilla root rot, or a rust fungus on the leaves.  I lost 3 Viburnum this year, leaving big holes in the hedge.  Basically it looks fine and then by the time I notice something's wrong all the leaves fall off and it dies.

I looked into a few "large shrubs" like Aucuba Japonica, but am also thinking about something like a short, dense tree and growing Zamia Furfuracea under it.  They can quickly grow to 4-6' tall in shade and are 25F hardy if protected by canopy.  Are any of your suggestions suitable for AM sun/PM shade and might stay dense?

Though you might have to trim occasionally to keep them denser, Marlberry, Jamaican Caper, and Myrsine would be the 3 i'd research first..  Fiddlewood as well..  All are generally considered understory large shrubs / small trees that are often found growing beneath / between larger trees in habitat ( where they'll often look thinner / more spindly compared to cultivated specimens..

All 4 have been documented in / near Orlando / inland from the coast, so they should be ok through the winters there.

Other stuff listed, which would be found in South FL,. are worthy of research also, ..just not sure how most or all would fare through the coldest winters that far north / inland.. I'm sure Eric would have a better idea on how some of those things ...and any other natives i listed... have performed at Leu / would perform for the application you're looking to fill in your landscape.  If they wouldn't get too beat up during the coldest winters, Allspice and/or Bay Rum could be nice options since you'd get a nice dose of spicy fragrance when you brush against the leaves.


Other, hardier stuff like your native Privet ( Foresteria sp. ),  Sideroxylon sps ( ..inc S. tenax ) and Wax Myrtle could be kept shorter and denser, but also have smaller leaves / often have a sparser look in the winter, so..  I know some people love it, but to me,  Wax Myrtle seemed kind of meh in a landscape.

Again, hopefully Eric sees this and chimes in with his thoughts.. I'm sure he would have additional options that i can't think of atm.

 

[Merlyn]

@Silas_Sanconathanks for the great suggestions!  Some of them are definitely South FL only, but Marlberry looks like a big winner to me.  It's supposed to grow ok in full shade and be a reasonably fast dense shrubbery.  I'll have to see if either of my local nurseries carry it.

I do like Wax Myrtle in occasional spots, but most look kinda scraggly.  My wife likes Azaleas, but they always look scraggly and half-dead to me. 

@coco305you could look at Ficus Auriculata, Ficus Palmata "Icebox," Ficus Lyrata "Fiddle Leaf Fig" or Coccoloba Uvifera "Sea Grapes."  Those all defoliate with frost, but are easy to prune back to a small, dense tree.  They can get chopped back (or burned back) to the ground and will happily resprout any time it's warm out.  Auriculata is nice because just a couple of giant leaves will look really dense.

[Merlyn]

@Silas_Sancona did you ever try Schefflera Arboricola?  The green and variegated are said to be 10A most places, but maybe 9B?  It might be a good short dense tree, up to 8-12 feet tall.  But I can't seem to find a defoliation temp, or a frost hardiness.  Some people grow them in Jax, but that doesn't mean they don't burn to the ground each winter...

[Silas_Sancona]

56 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@Silas_Sancona did you ever try Schefflera Arboricola?  The green and variegated are said to be 10A most places, but maybe 9B?  It might be a good short dense tree, up to 8-12 feet tall.  But I can't seem to find a defoliation temp, or a frost hardiness.  Some people grow them in Jax, but that doesn't mean they don't burn to the ground each winter...

Sold them when i lived there, but not a fan of Scheffs. myself..  Tough to say if i'd consider them dense ..can see it, but many bigger ones i remember seeing there didn't seem to fit the bill, so to say..  Definitely can reach 8-12 ft and provide privacy though. Will produce tons of seed at that size.  Thinking defoliation / frost related damage starts to occur somewhere in the upper 20s if i remember correctly. Constantly  wet / cold soil will kill them - more often than not.

 

[Lyn96]

Not sure which species or variety, but I've seen some really gorgeous tree camelias that grew about 12 - 15 ft. in a colder zone 8.  Nice forms and I doubt they had very much trimming to obtain the form - just cutting off lower branches. Older varieties. They generally like to be an under story tree or peaking out at tree line. The flowers that fall off can be a bit messy but very nice. There are so may varieties grown that I think you could be very picky as to form and flower.

EDIT, oh, maybe you're looking for a hedge? Most camelia varieties are smaller and shrubby and would work if you like them. If you can find a variety that likes full morning sun they do tend to live a long time.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Lyn96

[Silas_Sancona]

14 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

Not sure which species or variety, but I've seen some really gorgeous tree camelias that grew about 12 - 15 ft. in a colder zone 8.  Nice forms and I doubt they had very much trimming to obtain the form - just cutting off lower branches. Older varieties. They generally like to be an under story tree or peaking out at tree line. The flowers that fall off can be a bit messy but very nice. There are so may varieties grown that I think you could be very picky as to form and flower.

EDIT, oh, maybe you're looking for a hedge? Most camelia varieties are smaller and shrubby and would work if you like them. If you can find a variety that likes full morning sun they do tend to live a long time.

Unfortunately Camelias detest Florida's hot / humid climate.. Central and Southern part of the state anyway.. Might do alright in far northern areas / western Panhandle. Think Nematodes knock them down there too.  Never sold them anywhere i'd worked when i lived there.

On the other hand, in Nor Cal? these were great options.. Can't count how many we sold at the nurseries i worked at in San Jose..

For obvious reasons, lol,  won't grow here, but see them offered in some big box stores this time of year.

[Merlyn]

@Lyn96I was just hijacking the original post to ask Silas Sancona about hedge ideas.  In some cases a "short dense tree" can also be a "tallish dense hedge" and vice versa.  A neighbor had a Virburnum with the bottom 6 feet of branches removed, and it made a really interesting tree.  I'd recommend it, except for the random deaths I've had in the past couple of years. 

[Lyn96]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:18 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Unfortunately Camelias detest Florida's hot / humid climate.. Central and Southern part of the state anyway.. Might do alright in far northern areas / western Panhandle. Think Nematodes knock them down there too.  Never sold them anywhere i'd worked when i lived there.

On the other hand, in Nor Cal? these were great options.. Can't count how many we sold at the nurseries i worked at in San Jose..

For obvious reasons, lol,  won't grow here, but see them offered in some big box stores this time of year.

Oh, I missed the Florida mention..

Speaking of Az.. I'm going to be trying some agaves from seed here in Humboldt county.. Wish me luck..

[Silas_Sancona]

11 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

Oh, I missed the Florida mention..

Speaking of Az.. I'm going to be trying some agaves from seed here in Humboldt county.. Wish me luck..

Nice,  You know which species?

[Merlyn]

@Lyn96there's a great thread on here about agaves, though I don't recall anything about growing from seed.  I haven't tried it myself, but I have about 400 agaves, aloes, and cacti here in swampy Florida.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

11 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

Oh, I missed the Florida mention..

Speaking of Az.. I'm going to be trying some agaves from seed here in Humboldt county.. Wish me luck..

 

11 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Nice,  You know which species?

Lol.. I missed the " from seed" part of your post..  Anyway..

As a whole, they should be pretty easy..  The seedlings below are 6month - 1 1/2yr old A. chrysantha from seed collected at about 4K elevation just east of where i'm located here..



Do recommend using a non-organic soil mix ( larger grained sand < #2 > ( see picture below ), Turface MVP / small Pumice or Lava  / Cinder ) with a pinch or two of Coconut Peat ( Ground Coir ) and a 1" deep layer of finer sand < #1 > on top of the rest of the soil, as the seed bed.  Place seeds no deeper than 1/2" below the soil. Under optimal conditions, they should start to germinate within 6 weeks after being sown. Smallest seedlings in this batch sat dormant after the bigger plants had germinated, then sprouted on their own in August after a good Monsoon storm soaked the pot.



Up there, imagine you shouldn't have any issues keeping them in more sun if you choose to  ( ...when it is out ..Familiar w/ how foggy that part of the coast can be ) Here, i have to keep Agave ( and Cacti ) seedlings in all day shifting bright shade.  Sun here is wayy too intense, esp. in Summer,  for seedlings, -of any kind,  haha..

[coco305]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:44 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Which part of Central FL....  Near-er to the coast?, of center of the state?  South or North of say Orlando?   Regardless, would look into these over introduced things first:

Allspice, Pimenta doicea, and Bay Rum, Pimenta racemosa..  Lemon Bay Rum is nice too but not quite as cold hardy as the standard form of the species, ..or so i'd been told by several growers. 

Marlberry,  Ardisia escallonoides. Have one growing here, in the desert, where it can be cooler in the winter, that has done fine for 8 years -in a pot.

Jamaican Caper, Capparis cynophallophora.  Also growing it here. Same length of time, and in a pot. No problems w/ our winters / extra wet during wetter winters.

Myrsine / Colicwood, Myrsine cubana

Bahama Strongbark, Bourreria succulenta

Tough Bully, Sideroxylon tenax.. I had what i'm assuming is a bigger-leaved variant that was quite nice.. Undersides of the leaves are very coppery colored and soft to the touch. Another, bought from the same nursery, has smaller leaves / no copper colored undersides. Might be a rarer sp that got mixed up at the nursery.

Crabwood, Gymnanthes lucida, and SatinLeaf, Chrysophyllum oliviformae are trial-worthy if where you are located isn't a regular frost pocket..  Note that SatinLeaf can be touchy to transplant.

Pepper Cinnamon / Winter / White Cinnamon ( NOT related to true Cinnamon / Cinnamomum Genus sp. ) Canella winterana  is another trial-worthy species for areas outside of S. FL. depending on proximity to either coast.

For introduced things, would research some of the Eugenia that produce edible Fruit ..Grumichama, Jaboticaba, Pitomba, Cherry of the Rio Grande, etc.. before things like non-native Ficus.





 

In the Fort Ogden / Arcadia area.  Not directly on the coast where tropicals will grow but decently close to the coast. 

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, coco305 said:

In the Fort Ogden / Arcadia area.  Not directly on the coast where tropicals will grow but decently close to the coast. 

 

6 minutes ago, coco305 said:

In the Fort Ogden / Arcadia area.  Not directly on the coast where tropicals will grow but decently close to the coast. 

  Looking over the 2012 USDA zone map from " Plant Maps",  While i'd keep the coolest winters you could experience in mind when researching ideas, you're pretty close to ..if not just inside 10A... now  ..so a majority of the species i listed ..and that's just a few of many other options you could consider, should do alright there.  Tenderest things might suffer damage during the worst / coldest possible winter, but should have many years between experiencing any possible damage.

Assuming you're closer to Ogden rather than say north, west or east of Arcadia,  I  circled a " general " area near you rather than zoom in to an assumed, more specific spot.  If more west or north, you're close to 10A too, but would choose for enduring slightly colder lows  during those winters when they occur.   Do know some people out by Myakka growing some pretty tender stuff, -for that area-  and having few cold damage related issues w/ those things over the years.

[coco305]

4 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 

  Looking over the 2012 USDA zone map from " Plant Maps",  While i'd keep the coolest winters you could experience in mind when researching ideas, you're pretty close to ..if not just inside 10A... now  ..so a majority of the species i listed ..and that's just a few of many other options you could consider, should do alright there.  Tenderest things might suffer damage during the worst / coldest possible winter, but should have many years between experiencing any possible damage.

Assuming you're closer to Ogden rather than say north, west or east of Arcadia,  I  circled a " general " area near you rather than zoom in to an assumed, more specific spot.  If more west or north, you're close to 10A too, but would choose for enduring slightly colder lows  during those winters when they occur.   Do know some people out by Myakka growing some pretty tender stuff, -for that area-  and having few cold damage related issues w/ those things over the years.

Id probably go for 9B stuff just to be safe, im guessing the rubber ficus elastica and indian laurel are both out of the question. but I can grow king palms I bet. I can also grow the black laurel oak.  Maybe some pittosporum tobira

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, coco305 said:

Id probably go for 9B stuff just to be safe, im guessing the rubber ficus elastica and indian laurel are both out of the question. but I can grow king palms I bet. I can also grow the black laurel oak.  Maybe some pittosporum tobira

Both types of Ficus grow here and in more solid 9b areas of town / California w/ out issue.. Should be fine there.

[Lyn96]

On 3/5/2023 at 5:33 AM, Merlyn said:

@Lyn96there's a great thread on here about agaves, though I don't recall anything about growing from seed.  I haven't tried it myself, but I have about 400 agaves, aloes, and cacti here in swampy Florida.

 

Thanks Merlyn, the hardest part is finding viable seeds.. Like bamboo they only flower every 20 - 120 years or so then die. Luckily the seeds are viable for longer if they're stored right.

 

[Lyn96]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:37 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

 

Lol.. I missed the " from seed" part of your post..  Anyway..

As a whole, they should be pretty easy..  The seedlings below are 6month - 1 1/2yr old A. chrysantha from seed collected at about 4K elevation just east of where i'm located here..


 

 

Silas, Very nice looking species!! I just googled it and A. chrysantha looks likes it has good symmetry and form. Kinda looks like a long leafed parryi. Did you collect the seeds yourself?

I'm trying Agave utahensis v. eborispina (only 25 sketchy aged seeds.. really hoping on this one!!)

parryi var. truncata,

parryi var. huachucensis

ferdinandi-regis AKA nicolosi,

Victoriae-reginae and Victoriae-reginae var. compacta

wanted to try more utahensis and parryi var. neomexicana but couldn't find seeds from a reliable vendor. I was told by one good seedsperson that it's been really dry out there for a few years and they are hoping this year will be wetter and more seeds.

I'm also trying seeds from at least one bamboo; Phyllostachys nigra or Black Bamboo. I have had some of this for over 20 years. I found out bamboo is also monocarpic & flowers infrequently. Seeds are also frequently infertile and viability is short lasting. Mine partially flowered last year (but no seeds) and I expect it to completely flower and die within 3. Out of 100 seeds from year 2022 I will be very happy if I get 10 and 3 survive.. I just put them in a soak on a heating pad tonight to plant tomorrow. The only other fresh cold hardy bamboo species seeds I've seen that I like are Moso which is just too huge.

Yeah, Az is hot hot hot. I would literally die of the heat out there. Beautiful area though. Here it's been unusually cold. Frosts and freezes every night for the past 3 - 4 weeks. Snow and hail.  Just before that we had a false spring of 70's for a week..

Edited March 7, 2023 by Lyn96

[Silas_Sancona]

34 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

 

Silas, Very nice looking species!! I just googled it and A. chrysantha looks likes it has good symmetry and form. Kinda looks like a long leafed parryi. Did you collect the seeds yourself?

I'm trying Agave utahensis v. eborispina (only 25 sketchy aged seeds.. really hoping on this one!!)

parryi var. truncata,

parryi var. huachucensis

ferdinandi-regis AKA nicolosi,

Victoriae-reginae and Victoriae-reginae var. compacta

wanted to try more utahensis and parryi var. neomexicana but couldn't find seeds from a reliable vendor. I was told by one good seedsperson that it's been really dry out there for a few years and they are hoping this year will be wetter and more seeds.

I'm also trying seeds from at least one bamboo; Phyllostachys nigra or Black Bamboo. I have had some of this for over 20 years. I found out bamboo is also monocarpic & flowers infrequently. Seeds are also frequently infertile and viability is short lasting. Mine partially flowered last year (but no seeds) and I expect it to completely flower and die within 3. Out of 100 seeds from year 2022 I will be very happy if I get 10 and 3 survive.. I just put them in a soak on a heating pad tonight to plant tomorrow. The only other fresh cold hardy bamboo species seeds I've seen that I like are Moso which is just too huge.

Great choices... Aside from chrysantha, palmeri ..and a couple other native sp. / species from Baja,  A. u. v. eborispina, and anything in the overall victoriae / nickelsiae group are among my personal favorite species..

Yes, i collected the seed myself, up at a place i hike at often / research plants at in the foothills east of where i'm located here in the Valley.. 

In the Ohana Nui section of the Forum, you'll find a 3 part thread series i put together about the overall area titled " Oak Flat " ..Lots of pictures of the A. chrysantha  i come across out there, among all the other neat stuff that grows out there..   Here's a few pictures from last fall, just for starts.. Some very good looking specimens up there.














For me personally, i collect just enough seed to have around / pass around to anyone who might be interested in some, ...usually just from a small section of an stalk.. You'd be surprised how much seed comes from just a few capsules.. Not necessary to destroy the whole thing to have some seed to play with..  I also only collect from stalks that had blown over on their own, or that i can shake seed from rather than tear down the stalks to access seed. 






Hoping to collect a little A. palmeri  seed from areas i visit down by the border during Monsoon season this summer.




As for Bamboo, be careful with Phyllostachys.. Beautiful, but can be quite aggressive. My grandma planted some in a raised planter but it managed to outsmart the barrier of a fence / nearby concrete in the neighbor's yard and popped up half way across her yard,  lol..

I know some of the really nice sp. are practically impossible to find but might research some of the Otatea  from Mexico, or either Guada  and Chusquea from S. Mexico, Central and S. America.  Believe many are from higher elevation mountainous areas and will withstand some cooler conditions, but don't "run" like other Bamboos can.   Can't say if a cold winter would knock it to the ground up there or not but Tiger Grass, Thysanolaena latifolia  is a nice, tropical looking bamboo-ish grass to have around.

[Lyn96]

47 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

As for Bamboo, be careful with Phyllostachys.. Beautiful, but can be quite aggressive. My grandma planted some in a raised planter but it managed to outsmart the barrier of a fence / nearby concrete in the neighbor's yard and popped up half way across her yard,  lol..

I know some of the really nice sp. are practically impossible to find but might research some of the Otatea  from Mexico, or either Guada  and Chusquea from S. Mexico, Central and S. America.  Believe many are from higher elevation mountainous areas and will withstand some cooler conditions, but don't "run" like other Bamboos can.   Can't say if a cold winter would knock it to the ground up there or not but Tiger Grass, Thysanolaena latifolia  is a nice, tropical looking bamboo-ish grass to have around.

 Nice! Are you a botanist? From looking at agave and bamboo species I'm really thinking a lot of these species are not at all well defined.. BTW do you know if agaves tend to flower in sort of species blocks as bamboo do? Like the individuals in the entire species flower within 5 years or so of each other? I think maybe bamboo only do so because they're so domesticated..too many "clones".. ??

I have quite a few victoria seeds in 2 batches. One batch I'm not so sure about the vendor and another that I think will be viable. Any interest in a trade? Do you think the chrysantha are still viable?

I looked at a bunch of high alt Mexican Agave species but the ones I really really liked aren't hardy enough- like the horribilis or one that used to be in the horribilis species. Very scabby and scary looking. Won't survive here though. I have a pretty small yard so am just looking for those I actively like that can survive here. Will probabley sell a few at yard sales over the years to support my plant habit.. The bamboo species I'm still looking through but most new world species seem to be a bit splayed or rough- I like bamboo that has a more upright and sparse habit.

I'm not worried about the Phyllostachys. Its fairly well behaved here with dry summers and I grow it in pots anyway. It tolerates pots really well for such a large plant. Just grows a bit smaller. I'm really hoping to get some Himalayan Blue bamboo this year, which is clumping. Problem is, that species flowered around 2014 and I'll have to hunt down newer seedling plants. I think I might have found some.

 

EDIT; Lol, I just looked up A. palmeri and there is no way all of the plants that came up on google images are the same species. Looks like they are highly variable in the nursery trade.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Lyn96

[Silas_Sancona]

21 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

 Nice! Are you a botanist? From looking at agave and bamboo species I'm really thinking a lot of these species are not at all well defined.. BTW do you know if agaves tend to flower in sort of species blocks as bamboo do? Like the individuals in the entire species flower within 5 years or so of each other? I think maybe bamboo only do so because they're so domesticated..too many "clones".. ??

I have quite a few victoria seeds in 2 batches. One batch I'm not so sure about the vendor and another that I think will be viable. Any interest in a trade? Do you think the chrysantha are still viable?

I looked at a bunch of high alt Mexican Agave species but the ones I really really liked aren't hardy enough- like the horribilis or one that used to be in the horribilis species. Very scabby and scary looking. Won't survive here though. I have a pretty small yard so am just looking for those I actively like that can survive here. Will probabley sell a few at yard sales over the years to support my plant habit.. The bamboo species I'm still looking through but most new world species seem to be a bit splayed or rough- I like bamboo that has a more upright and sparse habit.

I'm not worried about the Phyllostachys. Its fairly well behaved here with dry summers and I grow it in pots anyway. It tolerates pots really well for such a large plant. Just grows a bit smaller. I'm really hoping to get some Himalayan Blue bamboo this year, which is clumping. Problem is, that species flowered around 2014 and I'll have to hunt down newer seedling plants. I think I might have found some.

 

EDIT; Lol, I just looked up A. palmeri and there is no way all of the plants that came up on google images are the same species. Looks like they are highly variable in the nursery trade.

My apologies for getting back to you so late.. I actually was in the middle of a reply last night when our internet service shut down ( ...again, lol   ..Have been having big time service issues over the last week or so )

Was out in the desert most of the day, then came home to ..no internet service.  ..Something about the provider resetting service for some areas of town. Didn't get restored until about an hour ago. Gotta love internet providers sometimes, haha.  Anyway, to answer your questions..

Have studied and  taught myself everything i know regarding plants since i was a kid ( ..as well as several other areas related to Biology / ecology / environment-related subjects )

As far as flowering, from what i have seen in both native and cultivated Agave, there are always plants flowering somewhere each year. Imagine there are years where there will be more -or less- flowering in a given area than usual, but have never heard of any species exhibiting singular, mass flowering ( where all plants flower at once, like many Bamboos )

With Bamboos, i'm not sure those who study the peculiarity of why they bloom all at once have solved the reason but this article touches on some possible reasons.. https://bambooplantshq.com/mass-flowering-habits-of-bamboo/


It makes sense that if nurseries / growers propagate and then pass around plants from stem cuttings taken from just a few plants, those cuttings will do exactly the same thing as the plant they came from.  Blue Bamboo is a great option btw,  color intensity of the Culms can vary a little though, but is always some shade of powdery Blue.

A trade is fine, but not necessary if you're interested in trying some chrysantha seed.. i like getting seed of interesting stuff into interested hands whenever i can, and i never charge people for seeds.. Besides, i have way more seed than i'll grow, lol. 

As far as viability / lifespan of the seed,  i know i'd read a few things regarding the subject, but can't find the articles atm. Regardless, if i remember correctly,  Agave seed is supposed to have a pretty decent lifespan ..at least 2 years, possibly more,  if properly stored.. Same w/ Yucca seed.  Cacti seed can last 10, 20 -or more- years..

I'll have to find pictures of the A. palmeri  i came across on a trip down to Sonoita, AZ in August of '21.   Whether trying to ID a specific Agave, or just about anything else , i've learned " Googling it " rarely gets me to what i'm trying to ID., 

..If you have never used it, the iNat ( iNaturalist ) app. is the closest thing to perfect for ID'ing plants ..and critters out there.  I say "closest to perfect" because there are some obvious mis- identifications made w/ various plant observations  that aren't always fixed by whomever moderates that area of the site.  Some people who post observations might post a picture or 2, maybe from a distance where there is very little detail, and often of some part of the plant which might resemble 10 or 20 other things..

I always advise people that when you're trying to id something you aren't familiar with, the more details you can get pictures of, the closer to an accurate ID you can get. Even then, some plants, like many, similar looking, yellow-flowered plants in the Sunflower family can be a real pain in the butt to get a proper id on.  I like most of those challenges, haha.

[Lyn96]

Yeah, the electricity and web keep going out here too for hours or days with the weather..

Yes, I would think a desert plant would have a longer viability.

I'll PM you, I could take several seeds, and send you some Victoria. Maybe 8 is a good number? I have too many seeds right now also. I'll PM you. The cheapest way I've seen to send them, I think,  is wrapped in a little bit of bubble wrap and placed in a regular envelope. Would you prefer only the compacta (which is more likely to be viable) or both Victoria varieties?

On the bamboo, this may be getting into the weeds more than anyone would want, but there's a very interesting and well done study of the available data here; https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.00381/full

that discusses a lot of variables, including;

"Researchers calculate the flowering cycle by subtracting two flowering times. This is only accurate if the later flowering bamboo is the offspring of the previously flowering bamboo. Thus, observing at least three generations is required for accurate prediction of a flowering cycle. However, the present data on bamboo flowering may be questionable. First, it is very easy to find data based on only a single recorded generation of flowering cycle. Second, several different flowering events are described in many bamboo species, but it is not known whether the bamboo forests in a flowering event were derived from the seeds produced from the last flowering event. Finally, the historical records of bamboo flowering are limited. For many bamboo species, only one mass flowering event has been recorded, but the historical flowering time of the bamboo forest and the subsequent seed flow are not described in detail. Although there is not a definitive way to address these issues, the historical data still provide an important reference."

Tons of variables, which I find interesting. Record keeping and comparing apples to apples especially. For instance Phyllostachys nigra in at least 2 sources is assumed to have a lifespan of 40 - 50 years. Possibly by comparing different clones but I'm not going to spend all that time checking it. However, Japanese records indicate that Phyllostachys nigra var. henon (which is only a phenotype of P. nigra - all P. nigra is assumed from evidence to follow the same gregarious flowering cycles, roughly) flowered in a cycle indicating a lifespan of 120 years. But the Japanese clone did not produce seeds.. Generally, the Japanese keep very good records.. I need to read the study above a few more times, not trained in the language, but more to the point, there is so much to think about in there.

That and one of the Kew  speculations I found valuable.

[Silas_Sancona]

20 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

Yeah, the electricity and web keep going out here too for hours or days with the weather..

Yes, I would think a desert plant would have a longer viability.

I'll PM you, I could take several seeds, and send you some Victoria. Maybe 8 is a good number? I have too many seeds right now also. I'll PM you. The cheapest way I've seen to send them, I think,  is wrapped in a little bit of bubble wrap and placed in a regular envelope. Would you prefer only the compacta (which is more likely to be viable) or both Victoria varieties?

On the bamboo, this may be getting into the weeds more than anyone would want, but there's a very interesting and well done study of the available data here; https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.00381/full

that discusses a lot of variables, including;

"Researchers calculate the flowering cycle by subtracting two flowering times. This is only accurate if the later flowering bamboo is the offspring of the previously flowering bamboo. Thus, observing at least three generations is required for accurate prediction of a flowering cycle. However, the present data on bamboo flowering may be questionable. First, it is very easy to find data based on only a single recorded generation of flowering cycle. Second, several different flowering events are described in many bamboo species, but it is not known whether the bamboo forests in a flowering event were derived from the seeds produced from the last flowering event. Finally, the historical records of bamboo flowering are limited. For many bamboo species, only one mass flowering event has been recorded, but the historical flowering time of the bamboo forest and the subsequent seed flow are not described in detail. Although there is not a definitive way to address these issues, the historical data still provide an important reference."

Tons of variables, which I find interesting. Record keeping and comparing apples to apples especially. For instance Phyllostachys nigra in at least 2 sources is assumed to have a lifespan of 40 - 50 years. Possibly by comparing different clones but I'm not going to spend all that time checking it. However, Japanese records indicate that Phyllostachys nigra var. henon (which is only a phenotype of P. nigra - all P. nigra is assumed from evidence to follow the same gregarious flowering cycles, roughly) flowered in a cycle indicating a lifespan of 120 years. But the Japanese clone did not produce seeds.. Generally, the Japanese keep very good records.. I need to read the study above a few more times, not trained in the language, but more to the point, there is so much to think about in there.

That and one of the Kew  speculations I found valuable.

Figures that our wi fi went out right after my last reply, lol..  Turns out they had to replace the entire line from the house out tho their service box our Alley.. Anyway,, everything should be good now.  Replied your PM.

Interesting study.. Agree, some people might find that kind of info rather dull but, more often than not, diving into the details is how you answer many questions.. Can't count how many hours i have spent reading through similar info myself regarding all kinds of plants / other stuff.. There are of course times when i'll kind of skim through some of the really in depth research papers ( papers w/ lots of graphs / etc ) though since some of the language kind of flies over my head at times, lol.. 

Lastly, while the internet was down, did find pictures of A. palmeri  i'd observed back in '21..  Thought i got more, but guess not..  An interesting thing i'd learned about the species is some populations will pup while others remain solitary. Had always thought the species was strictly solitary. Populations observed are growing at 4-5,000ft in a part of the state that sees most of it's rainfall in Summer, but can also see a dusting to a few inches of snow, and sub 25F cold so often during the winter. Spectacular part of the state. Landscape looks a lot like California can  after a wet winter during wet summers.

[Lyn96]

Scientists right now for the most part abhor the thought of hybrids. In general, especially with animals they like things neat and pure but I don't think that's reality.  I've seen black bears up near Shasta Ca that have wide dish shaped faces and a trace of a hump, and the eastern coyotes are proven to be a hybrid between coyotes and wolves. Beautiful and impressive creatures! I watched 2 or 3 of them try to call out and ambush my dog (no way was that going to happen). Their howls are an interesting mix of wolf and coyote sounds. At least one pack of wolves in Yellowstone has a lot of black individuals and black is a color that only comes from interbreeding with dogs. The Roosevelt elk population up here is so inbred and is expanding it's population and intersecting with the severely inbred Tule elk and I think it's just a matter of time before they hybridize. Which is probably a good thing for their health, but the mention of it upsets the biologists..

Plants- possibly even more so.

The palmeri is nice, but I don't need it, thanks.

I've only seen the flowering stalks of agave twice- they are sooo dramatic, especially the bigger ones. Dinosaur food. Makes me feel like a species newbie on the planet..