Which archontophoenix?

[Billeb]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:11 PM, tim_brissy_13 said:

A cunninghamiana x alexandrae 

Hybrid ya say eh? Hmmmmm 🤔 

Ive got an “Alexandrae” that looks very similar down to the off colored leaf upon opening. Never heard of that Hybrid. 
 

-dale 

[tim_brissy_13]

1 minute ago, Billeb said:

Hybrid ya say eh? Hmmmmm 🤔 

Ive got an “Alexandrae” that looks very similar down to the off colored leaf upon opening. Never heard of that Hybrid. 
 

-dale 

Yeah, visually it looks 90+% like straight A. alexandrae to me too. Only differentiating feature is some brown crown shaft speckling which I guess comes from the cunninghamiana. Honestly I purchased this as a juvenile so I can’t trace this back to the parent plants, but it seems to check out as a hybrid. I’ll know for sure when it flowers. 

[James B]

The Alabang hybrid does exist. I believe DoomsDave has one that is quite impressive.

[Sandy Loam]

On 2/26/2023 at 7:07 PM, kinzyjr said:

If your benchmark is surviving both January 2010 and December 2010, the palms in front of Lakeland City Hall survived those freezes.

Thanks KinzyJr.  I took a look at the palms in front of the Lakeland City Hall and I can't identify them all.  Do I see a Kentia Palm there on the left?  If so, that would be a surprising choice for anywhere in Florida's humid/wet/hot climate. 

 

[Sandy Loam]

On 2/26/2023 at 11:32 PM, Tyrone said:

Archontophoenix myolensis can get a light aqua blue crownshaft. That's what some of mine are doing now.

Asking about speed of growth comparisons depends on how heat deprived your climate is. If you are heat deprived, like southern coastal WA, Gippsland in Victoria, NZ, or coastal Northern California, cunninghamiana is about double the speed of alexandrae, and the others. If you have good year round warmth, they will all grow about the same speed except for purpurea which is the stalactite of the genus, but by no means the slowest palm on Earth, and really beautiful and distinct.

Looking at where each species come from in the wild, ie latitude versus altitude from most tropical to least tropical, Archontophoenix will look like this. A tuckeri, A alexandrae, A myolensis, A maxima, A purpurea, and least tropical in requirements A cunninghamiana. In the middle there is almost no difference as they are all mountain palms, and even alexandrae has mountain habitats too. High altitude versions of cunninghamiana will be the most cold tolerant, not the most southern populations, as they are often near the coast which rarely gets to freezing temps if ever. 

All Archontophoenix needs copious moisture. They grow along streams. They won't get to any extraordinary size without it. If you find they are rotting something else is going on. They are water hogs, although cold and wet for too long are not what they like either. 

This is fantastic information.  Thank you, Tyrone.  

 

[Sandy Loam]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:56 PM, tim_brissy_13 said:

Yes very different to look at. I’ve grown them all so I’ll add my input for a visual key for the different species, without reference to flowers/fruit/seed differences which probably aren’t visually obvious from a distance and therefore less useful to general enthusiasts (and not useful at all for juveniles). 
 

General comments: 

- I’ve seen no distinctive differences in overall size between any of the species  The variability within each species overlaps with all others.

- Grown rate: Highly variable depending on sun/shade, soil, water and climate.  A cunninghamiana is the fastest for me, but I’m in a relatively cool climate.  My specimen in part shade and rich soil doubles to rate of another in full afternoon sun with root competition. A. purpurea generally the slowest regardless of conditions and climate.

A. purpurea

The most distinctive species.  The only species with silver frond underside AND ramenta (little hairy things) on the leaflet undersides.  Even seedlings are distinctive; they tend to hold onto bogus fronds longer and have a bright yellow colour to leaf bases.  As they mature they develop the unique purple/blue crownshaft they are known for.  Freshly exposed trunk will generally be a bright aqua colour for one/two growth rings and eventually fade to brown. Occasionally freshly exposed growth rings with be covered in a dense dark coloured wooly material. Will never throw coloured new fronds from my experience. Sun grown specimens will have relatively upright fronds. Fronds and leaflets tend to be quite stiff/thick to the feel relative to other species.

 

A. cunninghamiana

The second most distinctive species. The only species will green frond undersides. Has ramenta on leaflet undersides.  Crownshaft colour can range from olive green to purplish from a distance, but never brightly coloured.  If you look closely at the crown shaft, it will be covered in brownish speckled material. Freshly exposed growth rings nearly always are brown straight away just as for the mature trunk. Fronds twist 90 degrees to the vertical at the end of fronds. Size is highly variable, some specimens end up huge, others much smaller and thinner. This seems to depend on growing conditions and origin of seed.  Trunk with start quite thin when at a young age and generally swell as they gain height  all other species tend to get a bit more ‘chunky’ before exposing clear trunk. Can occasionally throw slight reddish new fronds, most likely in the cooler months for me (but not all specimens).

A. myolensis

 Silver frond undersides, no ramenta. Crownshaft colour ranges from bright emerald green to aqua blue. Fronds twist 90 degrees (like A. cunninghamiana).  Leaflets tend to be the widest of all species (just my observation, I don’t think this is formally documented).  Usually not likely to throw new coloured fronds. Freshly exposed trunk is green, fading to brown over time.
 

A. maxima

Silver frond underside, although maybe more dull/grey in appearance than myolensis, tuckeri, purpurea and alexandrae.  Specimens grown in full sun have little to no petiole; leaflets will start at the leaf base.  Unfortunately this trait doesn’t seem to occur on shade grown specimens making them difficult to ID.  Crownshaft colour ranges from emerald green to aqua blue like myolensis but usually perhaps not quite as vibrant as myolensis (although variable). Sun grown specimens tend to have quite upright fronds. Shade grown and more relaxed. Generally minimal frond twist. Will sometime throw a reddish new frond. Freshly exposed trunk is generally green fading to brown over time.

 

A. alexandrae

Silver frond undersides, no ramenta. Fronds similar to A. maxima; more upright in sun, relaxed in shade, generally no twist. Usually distinctive by crownshaft colour; typically has some white/silver colouration which is more prominent in sun grown specimens (more towards a flat green colour in the shade).  Will sometime throw a reddish new frond. Freshly exposed trunk is generally green fading to brown over time.
 

A. tuckeri

Silver frond underside, no ramenta.  Generally some frond twist although generally not 90 degrees. Crownshaft colour always quite bright emerald green. Freshly exposed trunk green fading to brown over time. Very commonly throws a reddish new leaf and can be quite bright red in some specimens.

 

It’s probably obvious from the above, but A. myolensis, maxima and tuckeri (and even alexandrae) can be quite difficult to tell apart in certain conditions, especially for juvenile specimens. Throw into the mix that hybrids exist, and the genus can be a difficult one to distinguish separate species. FYI the alexandrae x cunninghamiana (or reverse) hybrid generally looks like alexandrae but with the brownish speckles on the crownshaft.

Some photos to come…

 

Wow.  Thank you for these copious details, Tim.  This is very informative indeed.

[Sandy Loam]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:09 PM, tim_brissy_13 said:

A alexandrae

 

Wow - nice!  Those crowns are giant too.  The frond length seems to be four times the height of the woman in the photo.

 

[Sandy Loam]

So.... ... As I scroll throw old palmtalk posts, I'm seeing conflicting reports here about which archontophoenix I could potentially grow in central Florida. Some say that this is simply not a palm that can be grown in for Central florida, but is not a problem to grow in South Florida. Others say that it is a possible palm in my region.

 

If I limit myself to Archontophoenix Cunningham and Alexandrae only (the two which are most readily available),  there are also conflicting reports. If I ignore everyone who grows these trees in a dryer, cooler or more mountainous climates and stick with the opinions of those in wet/humid/low-lying climates, then the preference seems to lean towards the Alexander palm. Yet, even in my region, there are some people nearby who wrote that Cunningham is the most cold-hardy.   Others say the opposite in nearby Tampa Bay area, where they find that the Alexander Palm is roughly as cold hardy as Cunningham and bounces back from periodic cold damage more quickly than Cunningham does.

 

I'm therefore confused by all of this information. Is it true that there's hardly any difference in cold hardiness between these two palms? If so, then I will consider the one that is best suited to my wet and humid hot climate, which apparently is Alexander and not Cunningham.

 

Lastly, some people mentioned that A. Cunningham burns in full sun in Florida, whereas Alexandrae does not.  Does this meant that Cunningham is best for shade in central florida, whereas Alexander is best for full sun planting locations? If so, maybe it's worth a little bit of frond "browning" in the middle of the summer to have the extra cold hardiness of the Cunningham palm? Even if the Cunningham Palm is less vigorous than the Alexander Palm according to Florida growers, Cunningham is certainly not a slow grower anyways. Plus, I don't want to look at winter damaged palm fronds every year if the Alexander Palm is going to be a very tender tropical tree. I would rather have Cunningham Palms which only show cold damage once every 7 years when an extreme polar vortex arrives for a couple of days.

 

Am I wrong? I'm just trying to interpret all the mixed  signals that I have been reading on PalmTalk about these two palms. I'm trying to ignore the growing experiences from California because California growing conditions are completely different from ours in Florida. I'm trying to disregard some of the Western Australia, Victoria and Tasmania growing experiences as well, since my climate is closer to Brisbane's.

 

I tried A. Cunningham up in North Florida several years ago and it grew incredibly quickly in shade, although the one planted in a sunny location grew almost twice as fast. Perhaps it was my hot / wet clay soil that they adored at that property. Unfortunately, after 7 successful years up in North Florida, a cold snap arrived and killed them all.  A few years later, I would like to start again down here in Central Florida at a different property in zone 9b/10a, but I'm still torn on what to plant. Maybe I should just buy a mix of both trees and see what happens.  My soil is different at the property in central Florida (better drainage), but it should work. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

Thanks to everyone who has provided their input so far. It is greatly appreciated!

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thanks KinzyJr.  I took a look at the palms in front of the Lakeland City Hall and I can't identify them all.  Do I see a Kentia Palm there on the left?  If so, that would be a surprising choice for anywhere in Florida's humid/wet/hot climate. 

 

The Archontophoenix are these in front of the south entrance.  These are pre-2010 and the photo is also present in my cold damage report in the Florida Christmas Freeze 2022 thread:

There isn't a Howea forsteriana (Kentia) there as far as I have seen.  I do grow Howea forsteriana in my garden, and there appears to be a few that grow in the Lake Hollingsworth area.  Some of the others you might have seen in the City Hall gardens include variegated Caryota mitis (Fishtail Palm), Carpoxylon macrospermum (Aneityum Palm), Allagoptera caudescens, Pseudophoenix sargentii (Buccaneer Palm), Hyophorbe lagenicaulis (Bottle Palm), Cryosophila stauracantha (Rootspine Palm), Chambeyronia macrocarpa (Flamethrower Palm), Lytocaryium weddellianum, (Dypsis) Chrysalidocarpus leptocheilos (Teddy Bear Palm), and Areca catechu (Betel Nut Palm - probably dwarf var.):

Areca catechu:

 

[Sandy Loam]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

The Archontophoenix are these in front of the south entrance

Thank you.  What type of archontophoenix appear in that photo, above? 

[kinzyjr]

3 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thank you.  What type of archontophoenix appear in that photo, above? 

There was some back and forth debate on this in the Remarkable Palms of Tampa Bay thread when I first posted these.

Currently, we think these might be Archontophoenix alexandrae since the leaflets have blue undersides.  The trunks are a bit skinny compared to the Archontophoenix alexandrae at Hollis and in my yard though.  The seeds are definitely viable as they sprout pretty much everywhere the birds carry them.

The city documents state that they use Archontophoenix cunninghamiana in this garden, but IDTools states that cunninghamiana should have green undersides.

If you're going to get one and can't make up your mind, it might be good to get a hybrid since they are available in the For Sale section not all that far away:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/77072-king-palms-for-sale/

[sonoranfans]

If you are in a marginal climate planting under overhead canopy I think the bangalow will be happier.  Alexandre wants full sun or at least half a day direct.   In absolute temps reports from the orlando area are that cunninghamiana can survive lower temps

 

One hypothesis that I like is that they have the same(lack of) frost tolerance but the cunninghamiana tend to be planted in more frost protected areas due to sensitivity to sunlight.  Data from cali is interesting but cold there tends to be more brief than florida so tolerance to an absolute low appears better in CA.  We had a good run of warm winters after I planted my triple of 1 gallon seedlings.  They grew up over the frost zone heightwise.  As far as the 100' eh I seriously doubt that will happen in my area.   Myolensis I have in sunny and part shady positions, the glaucous color of the crownshaft of the one in the more shady spot is much more pronounced.  Purpurea is slow and the purple color is difficult to retain in florida sun.  As my palms grew taller I had more sun exposure and the purple faded.  No surprise I guess, as natural dye molecules are broken up by UV light. 

[Midnight Gardener]

These are my cunninghamiana… I’m in Orlando across the lake from Leu Gardens. I planted them back in 2016. I think they’re a lot more cold hardy than people realize, especially as they get some size. They got hit hard in January 2017 but made a nice recovery.  If you have Foxtails in your area successfully growing I think you can grow cunninghamiana - they have similar cold tolerance but actually need less TLC in general. 

[happypalms]

Well as I do live in the cunninghamiana habitat I will say bangalows get taller and are more cold tolerant than alexander palms and there is a difference in the two palms easily distinguished by the silver underside on the Alexander 

[Harry’s Palms]

I have both and raised them from 10” pot size to pretty good sized trees and there is a noticeable difference to me . Mine were purchased at Home Depot as “King” palms but after planting them I could see a difference . Now it is obvious. Cuninghamiana are everywhere here in Southern California. It seems the distributors brought in mass quantities and were as common as Queen palms. The price was about the same . Queens survived better , but are messy . The Alexander’s are very nice looking palms and more robust after a few years. The Bungalow are slender and a bit lighter in color . 

[sonoranfans]

I suspect that many of these archies can look a bit different depending on the climate and sun exposure.  I have alexandre(~30'), myolensis(25'), maxima(22'), and purpurea(12').  These are relatively compact palms for me with crowns that are visually narrower than C. Oliviformis, satakentia L., or C leptocheilos(teddy bears).  So the leaf length is less though crownshafts are as big or bigger than those palms.  My small purpurea hasnt hit full sun yet so it has some decent purple but if the experience of others holds it will be bleached and yellowed in direct sun here.    First is of a fruiting myolensis the second is of my purpurea, its a tough nut here in sun and someday that will be its fate as it grows over the roof.  Trying to get a pick of that 30' alexandre triple or the maxima just doesnt work with clouds backlighting it.   The myolensis is the first to seed, I think it was timing as the alexandres had inflorescence spears that just dried up in our drought(8" rain in fir st 7 1/2 months last year.  The myolensis decided to grow those inflorescences after the drought was over.   My C Oliviformis are all fruiting but had their inflorescences cooked too.  The myolensis does seem to have lost the waxy look tot he crown that it had a couple years ago.    

 

[tim_brissy_13]

Archontophoenix myolensis freshly exposed crownshaft looking nice and blue. 

[ruskinPalms]

I’d still go with alexandrae. The ones I had in Ruskin used throw a reddish frond most of the time. Definitely more robust and faster to recover from any cold than my cunninghamiana I’ve had at two different houses in central Florida now. I’m gonna say the success photos of palms planted in Lakeland should make it clear that a lot of these palms are at least worth a try. Maybe stop worrying about overall cold tolerance and think more about what the palms you’d like to try experience the vast majority of the time: heat, humidity, lots of strong sun and for me hurricanes have been a bigger problem than cold. What is more hurricane tolerant? Alexandrae or cunninghamiana?

[sonoranfans]

18 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

I’d still go with alexandrae. The ones I had in Ruskin used throw a reddish frond most of the time. Definitely more robust and faster to recover from any cold than my cunninghamiana I’ve had at two different houses in central Florida now. I’m gonna say the success photos of palms planted in Lakeland should make it clear that a lot of these palms are at least worth a try. Maybe stop worrying about overall cold tolerance and think more about what the palms you’d like to try experience the vast majority of the time: heat, humidity, lots of strong sun and for me hurricanes have been a bigger problem than cold. What is more hurricane tolerant? Alexandrae or cunninghamiana?

I can agree that my alexanders have been burned except the spear in 2018 and hurricanes IRMA(70-75 mph sustained 5 hrs) and IAN(sustained 80, peak of 97 mph winds) stripped them down to spears too but the recovery was FAST faster than even Roystonea by a little bit.  The witie undersides of the alexandre and myolensis are a treat when the sun shines on their undersides, beautiful on a sunny windy day.  I used to see the pinkish brown new leaves when they were small, not anymore as they are way up there now

[bubba]

I am guessing A.alexandre based upon lighter green crownshaft and flared stepped trunk:

[Navarro]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

Supongo que se trata de A. alexandre debido a su capitel de color verde más claro y su tronco escalonado y ensanchado:

Yo diría que es veitchia , precioso lugar 😍

[bubba]

Navaro and All,

Sorry to blow up this thread! Does appear to be Veitchia arecina a/k/a V. montgomeryana named after David Fairchild's good friend, Robert Montgomery. Robert Montgomery's wife endowed the Montgomery Botanical Center in Coral Gables, Fl. in 1959 down the street from Fairchild Gardens and the Kampong. The Palm is still recognized as Veitchia arecina in scientific parlance! I need to see an eye doctor!

[RiverCityRichard]

I’ve got both growing in DeBary, FL. Solid 9b. The cunninghamiana I planted from a 7g in November 2021. Got a bit of frost burn that winter, but only 30% or so. Since then has seen 27ish degrees over Christmas 2022 with no damage. Gets a ton of water and I feed it well. Has nearly tripled in size. Full sun all day, all year, no overhead canopy. 

 

The Alexandrae I grew from a seedling and planted it in late April this year. Has already gotten a fat base and opened two fronds. Fastest growing palm in my garden, and is in filtered light with high oak canopy, in a warm part of the yard. We’ll see how it does with winter, but overall it would be my pick for the central Florida yard. 
 

Also have an overgrown 7g Purpurea and a few dozen Tuckeri seedlings all in pots. Will probably plant the Purpurea in deep shade in the spring.

[wixxy]

On 7/5/2024 at 5:58 AM, RiverCityRichard said:

I’ve got both growing in DeBary, FL. Solid 9b. The cunninghamiana I planted from a 7g in November 2021. Got a bit of frost burn that winter, but only 30% or so. Since then has seen 27ish degrees over Christmas 2022 with no damage. Gets a ton of water and I feed it well. Has nearly tripled in size. Full sun all day, all year, no overhead canopy. 

 

The Alexandrae I grew from a seedling and planted it in late April this year. Has already gotten a fat base and opened two fronds. Fastest growing palm in my garden, and is in filtered light with high oak canopy, in a warm part of the yard. We’ll see how it does with winter, but overall it would be my pick for the central Florida yard. 
 

Also have an overgrown 7g Purpurea and a few dozen Tuckeri seedlings all in pots. Will probably plant the Purpurea in deep shade in the spring. Using a galvanized steel greenhouse frame for gardening offers durability and longevity. Galvanized steel resists rust and corrosion, making it ideal for humid environments or areas with frequent rain. It provides strong structural support for greenhouse coverings, ensuring stability against wind and weather. While initial costs may be higher, the investment pays off with reduced maintenance and extended lifespan, making it a practical choice for serious gardeners looking to protect their plants year-round.

wow really so cool. I want to griw the same in my garden in the future.

[Tyrone]

Archontophoenix are the ideal palm to mass plant. 3 to a hole go really well and they love company. In the wild they can grow in dense populations of hundreds. 

[Erik]

On 1/28/2024 at 12:35 PM, sonoranfans said:

I can agree that my alexanders have been burned except the spear in 2018 and hurricanes IRMA(70-75 mph sustained 5 hrs) and IAN(sustained 80, peak of 97 mph winds) stripped them down to spears too but the recovery was FAST faster than even Roystonea by a little bit.  The witie undersides of the alexandre and myolensis are a treat when the sun shines on their undersides, beautiful on a sunny windy day.  I used to see the pinkish brown new leaves when they were small, not anymore as they are way up there now

To follow up, which did you choose? How is it doing? I ask as I'm thinking of planting an A. alexandrae in a sunny spot cleared by Milton. I'm a bit warmer than you, in Sarasota (near SRQ). Thanks!