Satake condition

[byuind]

This guy has only been in the ground a little Over a month ago.

 

is this browning of the leaves due to sunburn, transplant shock, or something more sinister?

 

it’s only shown up in the last week so I’m GUESSING it’s transplant shock, as the location only gets about 4 hours of sun and the rest is filtered behind some queens.

 

 

[kinzyjr]

9 hours ago, byuind said:

is this browning of the leaves due to sunburn, transplant shock, or something more sinister?

Depending on if it was grown in shade or not, it may still be due at least partially to sunburn.  Usually that comes with a lighter brown color at first though.  If you have some shade cloth, it may not hurt to give it dappled light to see if the damage stops spreading.  That would also help with transplant shock by giving it time to establish during the hot, dry period between now and the end of May.

[PalmatierMeg]

Sunburn. I found young Satakentias much trickier to grow than otherwise similar palms like Chambeyronia/Kentiopsis oliviformis. They are emergent palms, i.e., grow into full sun, and can be killed by strong sun when smaller. They also seem not as robust and more prone to disease. I have only one that has survived to near maturity while I count a dozen or more that never made it past seedling stage. The planets and stars must align just right for this one. When I was looking for replacement palms for our jungle, I passed up Satakentia for C oliviformis and C leptocheilos because lack of canopy would make growing another Satakentia even trickier. But they are gorgeous palms if you can get them past the juvenile stage.

[Looking Glass]

I planted these out as 7g in really heavy sun, and they are in fast draining, sandy soil.  At the 7g size they burnt a lot in the sun, but have grown quite fast and are outgrowing their sun sensitivity now….

This one below,  I got as 1 or 3g?….   It was very sun sensitive at that size and responded best to dappled sun light.  It seemed to like this better than bright shade.  It would get the streaky brown fronds like yours.   Now at 7g size it is stronger and more tolerant, and by summer could probably go out to a sunny spot if watered daily…..

One thing about these is they seem to crave constant water.  You can and maybe should, water them every day if your soil drains well and the weather is hot.   
 

I’ve also got C. Leptocheilos, and these could easily tolerate full Florida sun at 3 gallon size with a lot of water.  They grow pretty fast for me under these conditions…..

 

I’ve also got Oliviformus in full sun from 7g size.  They handle it OK, better than Satakentia at that size, looking a little pale, light green out there.   They grow slow, maybe 3-4 leaves per year, but each new leaf is much bigger and more upright, so they look bigger….   

 

I’ve also got C hookerii and had macrocarpa, and they have zero Florida sun tolerance when young, and burn easily, and are very slow for me.  I planted them in dappled shady understory where they plod along happily.….

[byuind]

Really appreciate that post man!

 

I’ll try watering every day for a while to see if it seems to improve its mood

[byuind]

Update: still getting this browning on my Satake… same spear as before which marks show is definitely growing but I’ll definitely say he does not look overly happy…

[D. Morrowii]

Mine looked pretty similar to yours for several months. New fronds looked good but pretty quickly developed some spotting and browning then dying. I was a little worried I’d run out of fronds for awhile there. It was planted April 11 of last year and is coming along nicely now. It doesn't seem to love full blazing sun in my location but it handles it pretty well so far. I agree with Looking Glass that they like lots of water. 
 

September of 22

May of 23

[sonoranfans]

yep as meg said these are an emergent palm, they do not like full sun as juveniles.  There is a lot of experience with these, they are not recently discovered.  

[sonoranfans]

here is one of mine, it gets ~2 hrs direct sun a day.

 

[Looking Glass]

6 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

Mine looked pretty similar to yours for several months. New fronds looked good but pretty quickly developed some spotting and browning then dying. I was a little worried I’d run out of fronds for awhile there. It was planted April 11 of last year and is coming along nicely now. It doesn't seem to love full blazing sun in my location but it handles it pretty well so far. I agree with Looking Glass that they like lots of water. 

September of 22

May of 23

This looks exactly like the phases mine went through in all day sun, and I think you’ve got it there, with what you are doing.   Toasted old leaves, then smaller, new sun leaves, as they adapt.   Then they start to take off.   The winter probably helped with adaptation out there too.  Looks like you are over the hump.  My oldest two leaves still seem to get a little yellow and beat up in full sun, and the palm won’t be as deep of a green out there, but keep pouring on the water during these hot dry months.   

Mine continue to gain size rapidly.   They are my fastest growing palms.  I’ll try to post a pick tomorrow.  

7 hours ago, byuind said:

Update: still getting this browning on my Satake… same spear as before which marks show is definitely growing but I’ll definitely say he does not look overly happy…

I wonder how these will respond to all of that shell mulch.  Time will tell.   I gave mine pretty heavy wood mulch a few times a year and put in a richer dirt/manure amendment into their spot.   I also wonder about feeding….  These need a decent amount of potassium and nitrogen with all that sun and water.  I’m a heavy fertilizer, and these seemed to like a little less, but more often for me.  Potassium should help the leaves burn less, but be careful about over salting them.  

[byuind]

4 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

This looks exactly like the phases mine went through in all day sun, and I think you’ve got it there, with what you are doing.   Toasted old leaves, then smaller, new sun leaves, as they adapt.   Then they start to take off.   The winter probably helped with adaptation out there too.  Looks like you are over the hump.  My oldest two leaves still seem to get a little yellow and beat up in full sun, and the palm won’t be as deep of a green out there, but keep pouring on the water during these hot dry months.   

Mine continue to gain size rapidly.   They are my fastest growing palms.  I’ll try to post a pick tomorrow.  

I wonder how these will respond to all of that shell mulch.  Time will tell.   I gave mine pretty heavy wood mulch a few times a year and put in a richer dirt/manure amendment into their spot.   I also wonder about feeding….  These need a decent amount of potassium and nitrogen with all that sun and water.  I’m a heavy fertilizer, and these seemed to like a little less, but more often for me.  Potassium should help the leaves burn less, but be careful about over salting them.  

I am going through the process of figuring out my best feeding method. I may be using spikes per a suggestion my other thread- will update on that later.

 

hopefully this guy adapts well. He gets about 4 -5 hours of sun in the AM but the hot afternoon is shielded by a larger Queen  

[Looking Glass]

Here’s a side view at sunrise today.  This is the season where they start to pick up speed.   
This one gets the brunt of the setting sun and grows faster.   At this size the oldest two leaves still look a little beat by the sun.  


 

In 2 days it will be 2 years in the ground….

Edited May 10, 2023 by Looking Glass

[sonoranfans]

these palms like alkaline soil so shells should be fine,  The best ones Ive seen in person were on Ken Johnsons farm, basically limestone rock soil, and very wet.  The crownshafts can be an amazing purple but that will be more brief in full sun since UV will break the chromophores(coloring molecules) up over time.  

[D. Morrowii]

2 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

Here’s a side view at sunrise today.  This is the season where they start to pick up speed.   
This one gets the brunt of the setting sun and grows faster.   At this size the oldest two leaves still look a little beat by the sun.  


 

In 2 days it will be 2 years in the ground….

Well they look fantastic!

[flplantguy]

This information is very helpful for those of us still planning too. Thanks for all the info!  I hope to be fussing over mine soon too

[byuind]

Following up: Ben Watanabe (that what I call him now like Last Samurai) is still not doing well. I had good growth on a spear but the browning of existing leaves keeps happening quickly. You can see the one is almost completely brown and others are showing signs. It happens very rapidly once it starts 

 

last spear that opened was very short and down in th center a little bit which is worrisome. 
 

anyone had this experience? He’s getting more sun than optimal but also lots of water

[sonoranfans]

I have been unable to grow these small without pretty good shade.  IF you are watering well and the soil is continually moist, I'd get a shade net over it to let it grow roots and adapt to the sun exposure.  This is one of the more sun sensitive species when young and high drainage soil makes it more so.

[Looking Glass]

At this point what else can you do but water and fertilize.   In the heat of summer, soak um’ daily in the early part of the day if possible, so they are wet for the heat of day.  Last couple of summers were dry, so I watered constantly.   This year it’s raining almost every day here, so I’m hand watering less.  I like having a wand like this.   It’s just more comfortable and accurate.  

Watering every day in the summer, and every other day most of the year, is a decent general rule.   These come from an area in Japan where it rains all the time.  

In mine, oldest two leaves always look a little beat up for me, as they are always in various stages of tearing away at the base.   

 

Mine seem to like a little less fertilizer at once, but more frequently.  

It’s a race against time for you.   Trying to grow new leaves, and hang onto the olds, faster than the sun can consume them.   The winter is a challenge too, as it gets cold up there, so you can’t grow year round.  
 

 

[byuind]

yup I'm going to start throwing daily water. I'm doing 3 times a week now but ill start soaking it.

 

Does it mine wet feet?

[Looking Glass]

10 minutes ago, byuind said:

yup I'm going to start throwing daily water. I'm doing 3 times a week now but ill start soaking it.

 

Does it mine wet feet?

I don’t think they want to be sitting in stagnant, boggy water like some semi aquatic palms, but I do think they want wet, well draining soil.   Mine get hit between crisscross lawn sprayers 3x per week, but I’ll water additionally and on the other days, by hand.   They are basically getting watered all the time without ever drying out.  

These are kind of high-maintenance palms for me.  Not super rare, but they still want a lot of attention.   

[palmfriend]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:19 AM, byuind said:

yup I'm going to start throwing daily water. I'm doing 3 times a week now but ill start soaking it.

 

Does it mine wet feet?

Any updates on your Satakentia?

Lars

 

[byuind]

7 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Any updates on your Satakentia?

Lars

 

Not great. Getting water every day but I feel like it’s on the slow crawl to death….

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, byuind said:

Not great. Getting water every day but I feel like it’s on the slow crawl to death….

Ouch.  I had one in a pot do this.  It was fine for a couple of years, in a part sun spot doing well.  Then in a month, it browned every leaf but the spear, oldest to newest.  Looked very similar to that.  Still have no idea what the problem was, or what happened.  It just calked rather quickly with no changes in care or exposure.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by Looking Glass

[byuind]

21 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

Ouch.  I had one in a pot do this.  It was fine for a couple of years, in a part sun spot doing well.  Then in a month, it browned every leaf but the spear, oldest to newest.  Looked very similar to that.  Still have no idea what the problem was, or what happened.  It just calked rather quickly with no changes in care or exposure.  

Fairly pricey mistake lol.

 

I’ll get a baby next time

[sonoranfans]

27 minutes ago, byuind said:

Fairly pricey mistake lol.

 

I’ll get a baby next time

small seedling are even more sensitive, gotta keep them out of sun and moist.  I had (4) with 2" strap leaves, killed 3 by not keeping it totally out of direct sun/not staying moist.  1 survives and is in a rootbound 5 gallon now looking pretty good but its still in 80% shade.  

[Looking Glass]

Maybe it was just a bad spot or a bum plant.  It happens.  Maybe something with more sun and cold tolerance would be better for that particular spot.   

These are pretty speedy down this way.   Not sure what prices are like there, but 3g can be grown to 7g in a year, then into the ground after another year.  Sometimes it’s cheaper and easier to experiment with a few of those.  

I think of Dictyosperma album or Ravenea hildebradtii for me.  Overjoyed in 4 inch pots, not speed demons, but obviously happy campers from the start, and robust, advancing in pot size consistently over years.   Contrast that with Dypsis Orange Crush….  Miserable shortly after spending time with me…. Terrible looking, pale and stunted, clinging to life over 2 years…. Definitely not happy with what I was cooking.   I imagine everyone has experiences like these in their particular yards and climates.  

I still think everyone, and I mean everyone, from Alaska to Florida can have an amazing garden with various staples and unique specimens that fit their circumstances. 

[byuind]

7 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

Maybe it was just a bad spot or a bum plant.  It happens.  Maybe something with more sun and cold tolerance would be better for that particular spot.   

These are pretty speedy down this way.   Not sure what prices are like there, but 3g can be grown to 7g in a year, then into the ground after another year.  Sometimes it’s cheaper and easier to experiment with a few of those.  

I think of Dictyosperma album or Ravenea hildebradtii for me.  Overjoyed in 4 inch pots, not speed demons, but obviously happy campers from the start, and robust, advancing in pot size consistently over years.   Contrast that with Dypsis Orange Crush….  Miserable shortly after spending time with me…. Terrible looking, pale and stunted, clinging to life over 2 years…. Definitely not happy with what I was cooking.   I imagine everyone has experiences like these in their particular yards and climates.  

I still think everyone, and I mean everyone, from Alaska to Florida can have an amazing garden with various staples and unique specimens that fit their circumstances. 

I would agree with this. I have a few areas around my home that have “nurse palms” already in place (large mature palms with canopy cover) where I could plant seedlings and they would get significantly more shade.

the spot where this one is SHOULD have had plenty of cover - there is a 20 ft Royal about 8 feet from it. But that Royal got beat up by the winter and the canes last year and it’s canopy is still recovering.

I’ll probably go further down the side of my house next time and get it under one of the queens 

[Johnny Palmseed]

13 hours ago, byuind said:

Fairly pricey mistake lol.

 

I’ll get a baby next time

Just like the others have said, this is not necessarily a great way to go unless you’re just expecting everything to die. I have spent probably thousands of dollars on plants over the years that have just died. I can’t even count the number of Satakentias that I have tried. To try to control costs, I had been trying seeds for a while and have had some success but mostly failure. It’s relatively easy to germinate seeds but keeping them alive is another story. I have also tried buying larger container palms in order to have a better foundation and have killed those too. The problem there is that you don’t know how the palm was cared for and now you could make major changes to it in a day. Case in point, I am about ready to toss 2 palms that I was very excited to get in the spring that are already on their last legs. Why? I’m not 100% sure but initially I think it was too much sun followed by too much rain followed by extreme heat/sun. I had asked if the palms were able to go full sun and was told by the growers that they would but I think that was overly optimistic. Ultimately I think there is too much variability in plants to be able to determine whether buying small or large is the best decision. You have to be ok with the fact that any plant you buy could live or die.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

@byuind I think if you can get your palm past this summer , it might just make it. For an emergent palm that spot was a fail , maybe if it was surrounded by multiple overhead palms it could work. C.Leptochelios would work perfect in that spot and would be a whole lot less fussy. I have found over the years 1g - 5g palms are your best investment , past the dreaded seedling stage , easier to plant , best price point. 1g palms from @Floribunda Palms is still the best deal in the business besides maybe local pick up at @NatureGirl

T J 

[byuind]

10 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Just like the others have said, this is not necessarily a great way to go unless you’re just expecting everything to die. I have spent probably thousands of dollars on plants over the years that have just died. I can’t even count the number of Satakentias that I have tried. To try to control costs, I had been trying seeds for a while and have had some success but mostly failure. It’s relatively easy to germinate seeds but keeping them alive is another story. I have also tried buying larger container palms in order to have a better foundation and have killed those too. The problem there is that you don’t know how the palm was cared for and now you could make major changes to it in a day. Case in point, I am about ready to toss 2 palms that I was very excited to get in the spring that are already on their last legs. Why? I’m not 100% sure but initially I think it was too much sun followed by too much rain followed by extreme heat/sun. I had asked if the palms were able to go full sun and was told by the growers that they would but I think that was overly optimistic. Ultimately I think there is too much variability in plants to be able to determine whether buying small or large is the best decision. You have to be ok with the fact that any plant you buy could live or die.

I figured if my C Macrocarpas 8 feet away could thrive, so good Mr Satake. Apparently not!

I’ll try a nice seedling next time in a shaded area just for fun.

 

ive got a planned order with Floribunda- not sure when ill pull that trigger yet but it should be soon

 

[palmfriend]

On 8/4/2023 at 6:44 AM, byuind said:

Not great. Getting water every day but I feel like it’s on the slow crawl to death….

Thank you for your reply!

I agree it doesn't look well. Since Florida's and Okinawa's climate is very similar - our island's soil is alcaline,too - I am often thinking about 

those problems you guys have (with this species) over there. Here they are completely bullet proof - against deseases and typhoons etc. - and at the 

right spot they don't even need any care... 

The only thing that comes to mind after all, there must have been something happened when it was put in the ground (or before) - some kind of root damage 

that the palm couldn't handle. I relocated one of mine once - I wasn't careful enough at that time, a very little part of the roots broke - and the 

palm started to show similar signs of declining as your's does and it finally died. This is the only explanation (or guess) I can think of at the moment.

Btw., here is one mine -

...last October and

...now. 

We had a typhoon a week ago lasting a couple of days - that's why those leaflet damages - but the palm sits in the ground like a block 

of concrete, the base doesn't even move an inch when pushing against it. It is there since it was a very young seedling and I never touched it,

just let it grow. It is a bit close to my Veitchia palms but I don't mind.

 

Al right then, I hope this helped a bit (or not) - still all the best for your baby 

and I am sorry for the late reply, I had a lot of work to do.

 

Lars

 

 

[byuind]

12 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Thank you for your reply!

I agree it doesn't look well. Since Florida's and Okinawa's climate is very similar - our island's soil is alcaline,too - I am often thinking about 

those problems you guys have (with this species) over there. Here they are completely bullet proof - against deseases and typhoons etc. - and at the 

right spot they don't even need any care... 

The only thing that comes to mind after all, there must have been something happened when it was put in the ground (or before) - some kind of root damage 

that the palm couldn't handle. I relocated one of mine once - I wasn't careful enough at that time, a very little part of the roots broke - and the 

palm started to show similar signs of declining as your's does and it finally died. This is the only explanation (or guess) I can think of at the moment.

Btw., here is one mine -

...last October and

...now. 

We had a typhoon a week ago lasting a couple of days - that's why those leaflet damages - but the palm sits in the ground like a block 

of concrete, the base doesn't even move an inch when pushing against it. It is there since it was a very young seedling and I never touched it,

just let it grow. It is a bit close to my Veitchia palms but I don't mind.

 

Al right then, I hope this helped a bit (or not) - still all the best for your baby 

and I am sorry for the late reply, I had a lot of work to do.

 

Lars

 

 

Pretty much everything you said above are the reasons why I’m going to try again next year….

 

no one ever accused me of being a quitter

[Johnny Palmseed]

I find these to be a finicky palm to grow. I have tried several with no success. I have also tried to go the cheaper route with seeds/seedlings and have also had no success. I currently have 2 seedlings left that don’t look great but I hope they will be my success stories.

[Looking Glass]

3 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I find these to be a finicky palm to grow. I have tried several with no success. I have also tried to go the cheaper route with seeds/seedlings and have also had no success. I currently have 2 seedlings left that don’t look great but I hope they will be my success stories.

I haven’t raised a big sample size from small size.  Just a couple of 1 gallons.   They seemed to not really like full shade, but fried heavier sun.   The seemed to like a little light sun...  Like early AM / Late PM low angled sun, and dappled, filtered shifting sun during the day, with still a lot of protection but some sun getting through. Almost like some bromeliads when you’re trying to get the best color.  They seem to like a lot of water, but also a pretty fast draining mix in the pot.  Not mucky like some water lovers.  Other than that, many report difficulty as babies for some reason. 

[Merlyn]

If you like the look of Satakentia you could also consider Kentiopsis (now Chambeyronia) Oliviformis or Dictyosperma Album/Rubrum.  Neither of those have been cold hardy enough for me here.  Dictyosperma is a fast grower and good for sun, just too many dips into the upper 20s killed off my ~2 foot tall plants.