Central Florida

[Bkue]

Am I the only one completely sick and tired of queens and sabals???? They put them everywhere. I know they are cheap, generally fit our climate, but enough already. 

[JLM]

Queens, yeah they should stop for sure. Sabals? They can stay. They are native.

[Bkue]

Not saying they shouldn’t be here but  builders keep dropping them in. I have at least 10 on my property that are volunteers. 

[Merlyn]

I don't have an issue with Sabals, because they pretty much grow well on benign neglect.  Queens, on the other hand, look awesome if they are watered and fertilized...but look like crap if they are not.  And then they randomly die from Fusarium.

[PalmatierMeg]

Queens are Class II invasive in FL. Not illegal to sell but one step above. They should not be planted in SFL and I believe in many local commercial sites they no longer are. They hate the soil, demand tons of fertilizer and drop thousands of slimy, smelly fly-attracting fruit all over the ground. They are maintenance headaches almost no one is willing to maintain and they are highly susceptible to fusarium wilt. Their upside is they look enough like coconut palms to fool tourists and palm ignorati in areas too cold for coconuts and the bias against palmate palms and pipe dreams of swaying pinnate palms overcomes planner group think.

Sabal palmetto is native and the State tree of FL and SC. My biggest concern is that almost all group plantings have been dug from habitat. Saving them from development is one thing but seeking them out and gouging them from their native home to fulfill the landscape scheme of a planned housing development is another. In VA the State tree was the dogwood and VA had a law against killing, damaging and digging up wild native dogwood, as my father told me when I was 7 and picked flowers from one. FL should have a similar law if it doesn’t and should require permits to tamper with wild Sabal palmetto.

There are many better choices for landscape palms than queens and ubiquitous Washies: Livistonas by the dozen for example. Phoenix species, esp. Sylvester is. Other Sabal species, even mules, although they are wilt magnets too, as are Washies and some Phoenix

[Hurricanepalms]

I would love to see the proliferation of native Cocothrinax, Pseudophoenix, Thrinax, Leucothrinax,Roystonea (where sufficient water is not an issue) and Sabal Lisa.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Hurricanepalms

[SeanK]

Love the relaxed, bushy crown of palmetto. Most queens (and robustas) are planted on the cheap and are less than attractive.

I'd like to see more C.alba in solid z9 areas.

Edited March 11, 2023 by SeanK

[PalmatierMeg]

Drove to a local plant sale this morning and noticed all the old, dying queen palms in the Cape. I believe Hurricane Ian along with years of total neglect will eventually wipe them out. Most of them don’t have the moxie left to produce seeds anymore.

[Merlyn]

@PalmatierMegI was one of those palm ignorati for about 15 years living in Florida, and then when I started planting palms I just wanted Sylvesters, Bottles, Queens, and any pinnate palm.  I attribute that to 15 years of being ripped to shreds by the Serenoa Repens in my yard, which I thoroughly hated.  But a big stand of L. Chinensis looks really "tropical" to me, and about 1/2 of my in-ground and potted seedlings are palmate types.

[RedRabbit]

4 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Queens are Class II invasive in FL. Not illegal to sell but one step above. They should not be planted in SFL and I believe in many local commercial sites they no longer are.

Yep, and there’s a lot of them growing in the wild here now. Most look pretty sickly, but a few have thrived.

Speaking of illegal to sell, when I was in Thailand recently I saw a lot of people using Australian Pines as privacy hedges. Talk about a terrible idea! They’re not growing invasively all over the place there like they are in Florida, but it’s just a matter of time.

[PalmatierMeg]

46 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Yep, and there’s a lot of them growing in the wild here now. Most look pretty sickly, but a few have thrived.

Speaking of illegal to sell, when I was in Thailand recently I saw a lot of people using Australian Pines as privacy hedges. Talk about a terrible idea! They’re not growing invasively all over the place there like they are in Florida, but it’s just a matter of time.

Australian pines are evil. So are melaleuca.

 

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@PalmatierMegI was one of those palm ignorati for about 15 years living in Florida, and then when I started planting palms I just wanted Sylvesters, Bottles, Queens, and any pinnate palm.  I attribute that to 15 years of being ripped to shreds by the Serenoa Repens in my yard, which I thoroughly hated.  But a big stand of L. Chinensis looks really "tropical" to me, and about 1/2 of my in-ground and potted seedlings are palmate types.

When I moved to Cape Coral in 1993 we paid a local nursery to plant 7 10’ queens overlooking our canal. Back in the 80s & 90s, queens (coined “princess palms” in northern states) were the amazing landscaping palm du jour (later foxtails, which have also shown to hate my soil and climate). Until they weren’t. The same idiot landscaper sold us two spindle palms as “bottle palm” and we didn’t know the difference until too late. To their credit our spindles are now 20+ ft tall and took on Ian without blinking.

Yeah, every Yankee first thinks all palms are and should be pinnate. To our credit you and I eventually changed our tune. I was hooked on palmate palms the first time I saw a Coccothrinax with its silver-backed leafy stars dancing in the sunlight. A Sabal palmetto that looks like a puffball on a stick is mesmerizing.

Back in 1985 my husband first visited the Rat’s House in Orlando and I saw palmettos lining the road while on a bus ride. I asked the driver, “Are those plants palms?”

He snarled back, “Those spiny weeds will cut you to bits. They should be destroyed wherever they grow.” How times and attitudes have changed. Now FL native Serenoa repens are welcome in hundreds of FL municipalities. 

[Hardypalms]

Serenoa repens has always been one of my favorite palms. The first times I drove into Florida and they were left and right for miles, I was amazed. They made an impact on me. Years ago it was impossible to get a seedling up here, now everybody sells it.

I have 4 inground in my 7b, i protect them with a frost cloth when it drops below 30, and add a tarp and lights underneath 25 and they are fine!

Pat

[mike in kurtistown]

Back when I lived in Seminole County, I got into Aussie Livs and a few Asian Livs (saribus). They did well in an area where I couldn't do coconuts or royals. I've even planted a few of the Aussie Livs here in "paradise" (muelleri, lanuginosa, benthamii, fulva, drudei). Silver bismarckias also worked, though they were marginal and showed some effects of freezes.

[bubba]

Melaleuca are the worst of the big three (3) (melaleuca, Brazilian Pepper and Australian Pine). My grandfather, who was a contractor, pulled a melaleuca off a barge from Australia in the 1920’s, for which he paid $250 dollars! It was a novelty item that started much earlier on the Gulfside of Florida. 

Melaleucas went on to take over the Glades and the Australians found our Pond Apples irresistible! They are now invasive in Australia!
 

 

[Hardypalms]

Kudzu is a plague in Georgia. Thank god none so far around me! Knock on wood. I don’t think it’s hard to control if you keep at it.

Pat

[SeanK]

3 hours ago, Hardypalms said:

Kudzu is a plague in Georgia. Thank god none so far around me! Knock on wood. I don’t think it’s hard to control if you keep at it.

Pat

I've seen in local stories, that there's a goatherder with a small flock that you can contract by the day.  The goats chew through the weeds and leave the property fertilized.

[sonoranfans]

I had queens in clay soil in arizona, they were fertilizer and water pigs but they looked far better than florida queens, full crowns and dark green leaves.  But it was such a battle with deficiencies even in clay soil.  In florida, they mostly look terrible, skinny trunks few leaves and deficiencies.  My sandy soil and rain here in florida means keeping those nutrients around in the soil is like paddling up a waterfall.  Sabals are fine though I have no sabal palmetto in my yard I have a woods view with them.  Sabal causiarum, uresana, mauritiiformis are in my yard and mature.  They are all trouble free and easy growing palms.  If you are florida cold 9a there are far fewer cold tolerant choices than even a cold 9B  I think one of our board members has a sheet of possibilities got florida.  Livistonas can be nice, I have L. saribus, decora and chinensis.  

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:09 PM, JLM said:

Queens, yeah they should stop for sure. Sabals? They can stay. They are native.

I second this sentiment! I've said in other forums for me queens just scream "not tropical" and I do not think they even look particularly nice. Definitely agree with OP they are overplanted. Sabals however I still enjoy, a nice looking palm that is just classic Florida.

Coastal central Florida especially should absolutely discontinue all queen plantings and instead plant Roystonea regia!

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:53 AM, bubba said:

Melaleuca are the worst of the big three (3) (melaleuca, Brazilian Pepper and Australian Pine). My grandfather, who was a contractor, pulled a melaleuca off a barge from Australia in the 1920’s, for which he paid $250 dollars! It was a novelty item that started much earlier on the Gulfside of Florida. 

Melaleucas went on to take over the Glades and the Australians found our Pond Apples irresistible! They are now invasive in Australia!
 

 

It is crazy seeing some of the Melaleuca monocultures in parts of western (inhabited) Dade county such as around US-41 and Krome

[donalt]

queen palms require good nutrition. no way around it. if they are cared for, however, they can look stunningly beautiful. it's not cool to like queen palms these days....and I agree the reputation was acquired by the vast numbers of uncared for queens.  the queen palms pictured here are examples of well cared for palms. photo left is a residential street (orlando)and photo right is outside the dolphin exhibit at sea world orlando.

[PalmatierMeg]

Ditto, @donalt my 7 original queens grew to be as beautiful and healthy as those and were the foundation of my backyard jungle. But we were highly motivated to maintain them as they shielded more desirable shade loving palms beneath. Then wilt wiped them all out in a matter of weeks.

You have to really care to grow decent queens in FL and that takes investment and work. 99.9% of people - my estimate - with queens in SWFL lack initiative to do the work or buy a few bags of fertilizer each year. While traveling through Cape Coral last Sat. I noticed dozens of older queen palms dead and dying in yards. I think a combination of age, long term neglect and hurricane damage has finally spelled doom for this ubiquitous species. While they are not illegal to grow or sell al la melaleuca they are finally harder to find in BB stores and no commercial nursery worth its salt carries them. One disadvantage of a healthy queen palm is its overwhelming production of large fleshy seeds that litter the ground and attract insects and other wildlife. All those seeds also present a slip-and-fall hazard I fell victim a number of times. Then came 1000s of queen volunteers.

[flplantguy]

Queens are in effect banned in pasco county.  Index two species are not allowed to be used in new developments in their updated code, nor are any species deemed invasive (red categories) in the risk assesment online.  People move in and remove them quickly if they know the risks and see the fruits and mess.  Its getting new species in their place thats the challenge, everyone sees photos from yesteryear and jumps on them (and coconuts), yet there are many types that perform better and look amazing too.  And then the uncared for ones die a horrible death over time, or events like the 2010 freeze that killed most of them in shady hills.  Makes you wonder which "in" palm today will go the same route over time.

[PalmatierMeg]

Agree @flplantguyI haven't checked locally but I wouldn't be surprised if Lee, Charlotte and Collier Counties have the same ordinances regarding queens. My candidates for potential oblivion are:

1. Foxtails - like queens they have nutrition problems in our soil and need constant monitoring and care. They are more cold/cool sensitive than queens and are way over planted, then neglected. Too bad, because I really wanted and searched for one back in the 90s. Now I walk the other way when I see one for sale.

2. Washingtonia robusta/filibusta - usually seen in commercial parking lots but also many homes. They take neglect and reward their owners with millions of seeds and volunteers. Also way over planted, unnecessary and invasive in SWFL where much better palm choices can be grown. But wilt is here and able to take them out en masse

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Queen palms and Washingtonias here normally look really good. But I don't like the fact that they are planted more than our native Sabal Mexicana and some native Brahea Species like Brahea Dulcis.

[donalt]

Florida seems to attract lots of non native specimens of plants that overtake the landscape and create issues. It really comes down to individuals taking care of their landscapes. Also, it is disappointing to see a commercial property landscaped nicely but then completely neglected once construction and landscaping is complete. 

 

[cocoforcoconuts]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:56 AM, donalt said:

queen palms require good nutrition. no way around it. if they are cared for, however, they can look stunningly beautiful. it's not cool to like queen palms these days....and I agree the reputation was acquired by the vast numbers of uncared for queens.  the queen palms pictured here are examples of well cared for palms. photo left is a residential street (orlando)and photo right is outside the dolphin exhibit at sea world orlando.

Have to say it, they still look ugly imo

[ruskinPalms]

1 hour ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

Have to say it, they still look ugly imo

They look better in real life as the wind moves the fronds and leaflets. I’ve found a lot of palms that look great in real life come out underwhelming in pictures on forums. 

[ruskinPalms]

As far as invasiveness goes, if something grows really well in your climate and soil conditions (and local critters like the fruit helps) chances are it will become invasive. C. lutescens seems to be an invasive candidate around here. My local squirrel and rat populations like the fruit and spread them around the yard and even bordering forested area (some planted in the ditch behind my house I planted, some I did not…). Queen palms palms are only invasive and self sustaining in a few areas I’ve seen around here. I don’t see them as a monoculture threat. They need lots of water and fertile areas which exist only in stream beds, ditches or similar settings around here. Pretty much anything that survives and seeds is an invasive threat. Adonidia readily reseed under their parents in peoples’ yards here but don’t seem to get carried into forested areas by the wildlife yet that I’ve seen. Phoenix hybrids are definitely invasive in this area, my Pygmy date double is a royal pain in the ass in so many ways... I expect Bismarckia and Wodyetia to begin popping up in odd places here soon as more and more survive to seeding age. 

[ruskinPalms]

Most of the soil in Florida is crap so invasive palms usually find their way to low lying areas where moisture and organic material collect, and it can’t get too cold for more tropical species and low lying areas tend to collect cold on still nights in winter. So, it may be a rarity to see many palms truly become invasive in central Florida overall. South Florida is a different story…

[PalmatierMeg]

1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

As far as invasiveness goes, if something grows really well in your climate and soil conditions (and local critters like the fruit helps) chances are it will become invasive. C. lutescens seems to be an invasive candidate around here. My local squirrel and rat populations like the fruit and spread them around the yard and even bordering forested area (some planted in the ditch behind my house I planted, some I did not…). Queen palms palms are only invasive and self sustaining in a few areas I’ve seen around here. I don’t see them as a monoculture threat. They need lots of water and fertile areas which exist only in stream beds, ditches or similar settings around here. Pretty much anything that survives and seeds is an invasive threat. Adonidia readily reseed under their parents in peoples’ yards here but don’t seem to get carried into forested areas by the wildlife yet that I’ve seen. Phoenix hybrids are definitely invasive in this area, my Pygmy date double is a royal pain in the ass in so many ways... I expect Bismarckia and Wodyetia to begin popping up in odd places here soon as more and more survive to seeding age. 

I agree the Wodyetia - to a degree - and Bismarckia have a potential for invasiveness. They also have Achilles’ heels that may hinder their chances. Wodyetia, while hardy down into SFL, have problems dealing with persistent cold/chilly weather. I had one I grew to almost maturity. We had two cold, dreary winters: 2009/10 and 2010/11. The first winter featured an icy cold rain during a day temps fell to 35F followed by a record low of 28.5F. The rest of the winter was cloudy and chilly. The second winter was almost as bad. Lows below freezing damaged the foxtail and continued chill continued the damage. The second winter was round 2. The palm didn’t die right off but after 2011 it stopped growing, started penciling and looking anemic. I asked a fellow palm buff who did landscaping what the deal was and he noticed the palm was also infested with borers. I had him take it out and never planted another foxtail.

Hurricane Ian destroyed 4 of my 6 mature Bismarckia, several of which were seeding. In the last 6 months we have pulled up dozens of seedlings all over our Garden Lot and down into the swale surrounding it. All these dying Bizzies released hundreds of seeds that are now attempting to take over our property. The good news is that while you need a shovel to dislodge them, Bismarckia are so root sensitive they are easy to kill. Their second Achilles’ heel is the native FL palm weevil, which historically attacked sickly, damaged Sabals, has found Bizzies much tastier. We lost our largest Bismarckia to a weevil attack years ago and had been treating our remaining Bizzies every spring with bars of Ivory soap to deter egg-laying weevils. We don’t know whether weevils will attack our two remaining storm-damaged Bizzies but no longer worry. We put the kibosh on Bismarckias because of their inability handle cat 4+ hurricanes.

[ruskinPalms]

Yep. I support all you said but if things live to seed then they can perpetuate their species. Seeds can fall and survive even the worst freezes here directly on the ground. Just can’t have frequent historic freezes…things have to live long enough to seed between historic freezes and I think the palms I mentioned can do that here. 

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I agree the Wodyetia - to a degree - and Bismarckia have a potential for invasiveness. They also have Achilles’ heels that may hinder their chances. Wodyetia, while hardy down into SFL, have problems dealing with persistent cold/chilly weather. I had one I grew to almost maturity. We had two cold, dreary winters: 2009/10 and 2010/11. The first winter featured an icy cold rain during a day temps fell to 35F followed by a record low of 28.5F. The rest of the winter was cloudy and chilly. The second winter was almost as bad. Lows below freezing damaged the foxtail and continued chill continued the damage. The second winter was round 2. The palm didn’t die right off but after 2011 it stopped growing, started penciling and looking anemic. I asked a fellow palm buff who did landscaping what the deal was and he noticed the palm was also infested with borers. I had him take it out and never planted another foxtail.

Hurricane Ian destroyed 4 of my 6 mature Bismarckia, several of which were seeding. In the last 6 months we have pulled up dozens of seedlings all over our Garden Lot and down into the swale surrounding it. All these dying Bizzies released hundreds of seeds that are now attempting to take over our property. The good news is that while you need a shovel to dislodge them, Bismarckia are so root sensitive they are easy to kill. Their second Achilles’ heel is the native FL palm weevil, which historically attacked sickly, damaged Sabals, has found Bizzies much tastier. We lost our largest Bismarckia to a weevil attack years ago and had been treating our remaining Bizzies every spring with bars of Ivory soap to deter egg-laying weevils. We don’t know whether weevils will attack our two remaining storm-damaged Bizzies but no longer worry. We put the kibosh on Bismarckias because of their inability handle cat 4+ hurricanes.

 

[Bkue]

Don’t get me wrong, I like sabals. They are natural and I have many. What I was saying is these builders keep throwing them into new con neighborhoods like it’s something special. I would bet they have 40% + mortality. I know of several neighborhoods around me that have many casualties. 

[JLM]

30 minutes ago, Bkue said:

Don’t get me wrong, I like sabals. They are natural and I have many. What I was saying is these builders keep throwing them into new con neighborhoods like it’s something special. I would bet they have 40% + mortality. I know of several neighborhoods around me that have many casualties. 

I have seen this here in the panhandle, there was a new gas station built on Hwy 90 in Pace, they installed 12 Sabals. Only 10 of them remain. I think thats about 80% survival out of that group. They have been planting more palms in developments in the area lately, and im all for it. Before, this place hasnt been very palmy, but slowly its getting there. Albeit mostly sabals. There have been some public plantings that included phoenix within the past year at a car wash.

Edited March 19, 2023 by JLM

[EPaul]

Palm fans of Central Florida (or all of Florida) - In order to coordinate more easily about palm exchanges, sales, and other things, we just started a WhatsApp Group called "PalmTalk: Florida" that's private. If you want to join the Group for any reason, PM me for a link to join. We'd be happy to have you.

[sonoranfans]

I walk the woods every day and I never see queens, bismarckias, or washingtonia in the woods.  Brazilian pepper and some phoenix hybrids out compete the native sabal palmetto in some places.  I wonder how that huge bismarckia seed would be transported by birds, which is probably why it isn't invasive as they flourish here without irrigation when mature.  Also I ran an experiment where I threw down a whole bunch of bismarckia fruits(disposal) in deep shade, none germinated and survived compared with the hundreds under my female 35 foot bismarckia.  I think bismarckia need some sun to self establish.  I think seed transport is a key to invasiveness.   My sandy soil will kill any queen trying to develop without supplemental water, so I dont see any.  The brazilian peppers and phoenix hybrids are the worst.  The most common phoenix hybrid for is the size of a dactylifera with those biplanar leaflets but they are deep green, nothing like dactylifera.  If I had to remove them I would want a flame thrower as they have 3" spines that are super sharp.

[Spikeinthetriangle]

Syagrus, Caryota, Phoenix and other exotics naturalizing on the east shore of Lake Dora. Photographs from Palm Island Park 

[Bkue]

10 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I walk the woods every day and I never see queens, bismarckias, or washingtonia in the woods.  Brazilian pepper and some phoenix hybrids out compete the native sabal palmetto in some places.  I wonder how that huge bismarckia seed would be transported by birds, which is probably why it isn't invasive as they flourish here without irrigation when mature.  Also I ran an experiment where I threw down a whole bunch of bismarckia fruits(disposal) in deep shade, none germinated and survived compared with the hundreds under my female 35 foot bismarckia.  I think bismarckia need some sun to self establish.  I think seed transport is a key to invasiveness.   My sandy soil will kill any queen trying to develop without supplemental water, so I dont see any.  The brazilian peppers and phoenix hybrids are the worst.  The most common phoenix hybrid for is the size of a dactylifera with those biplanar leaflets but they are deep green, nothing like dactylifera.  If I had to remove them I would want a flame thrower as they have 3" spines that are super sharp.

I know a few self sustaining queen growths. They are shaded. Bismarcks tend to sprout right next the mother given the right conditions. 
 

my sables grow relentlessly but are slow to get going and dont need anymore. 
 

 

[tropicbreeze]

On 3/12/2023 at 3:42 AM, RedRabbit said:

Yep, and there’s a lot of them growing in the wild here now. Most look pretty sickly, but a few have thrived.

Speaking of illegal to sell, when I was in Thailand recently I saw a lot of people using Australian Pines as privacy hedges. Talk about a terrible idea! They’re not growing invasively all over the place there like they are in Florida, but it’s just a matter of time.

Looked up this "Australian Pine". It's actually a "She-oak", or Casuarina. They're more closely related to Palm Trees than to Pine Trees. They're native from India, throughout South East Asia, New Guinea, Australia and New Caledonia, including of course Thailand. Nothing wrong with growing native plants.

[RedRabbit]

9 hours ago, tropicbreeze said:

Looked up this "Australian Pine". It's actually a "She-oak", or Casuarina. They're more closely related to Palm Trees than to Pine Trees. They're native from India, throughout South East Asia, New Guinea, Australia and New Caledonia, including of course Thailand. Nothing wrong with growing native plants.

Good find! I’m surprised to see something else bears such a close resemblance to an Australian pine.

[Silas_Sancona]

15 hours ago, tropicbreeze said:

Looked up this "Australian Pine". It's actually a "She-oak", or Casuarina. They're more closely related to Palm Trees than to Pine Trees. They're native from India, throughout South East Asia, New Guinea, Australia and New Caledonia, including of course Thailand. Nothing wrong with growing native plants.

Technically,  Causarinaceae  are Dicots  distantly related to Oaks and Walnut rather than Palms or other Monocots













 

5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Good find! I’m surprised to see something else bears such a close resemblance to an Australian pine.

" Australian Pine " is a simplistic and incorrect term for the species / Genus..