Some palms after winter in Holland

[kristof p]

On 3/13/2023 at 8:47 PM, kristof p said:

I found some pictures of the palm somewhere during last summer... As you can see it is in a very protected spot. There is an old T. sp nova growing in front of the Livistona. I will remove it as it never realy does wel in this deep shade and the Livistona needs some more space. It's been there since 2006 and I stopped building the winter greenhouse somewhere around 2014 so it only get's some fleece for protection for the last 9 years.  It has the speed of a slow Sabal minor :p. I go visit my parents in a few days and make some more recent pictures.

While I was at my parents home this morning I made a few pics of the Livistona. It is dificult to get a good picture of the plant because of it's location and a T. nova growing in front of it. It has slowly grown a bit during the winter. It looks very healthy . Credits to my mother who wrapped every leaf seperately in fleece and also the spears everytime we have a cold spell. The bits sticking out of the fleece do burn when it freezes! The fleece makes a huge differance it seems.

I threw in a picture of my biggest Brahea armata who is getting to big for the place it's been planted in years ago. I will need to break away the stone wall and give it more space and earth around the base of the stem. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by kristof p

[RJ]

30 minutes ago, kristof p said:

While I was at my parents home this morning I made a few pics of the Livistona. It is dificult to get a good picture of the plant because of it's location and a T. nova growing in front of it. It has slowly grown a bit during the winter. It looks very healthy . Credits to my mother who wrapped every leaf seperately in fleece and also the spears everytime we have a cold spell. The bits sticking out of the fleece do burn when it freezes! The fleece makes a huge differance it seems.

I threw in a picture of my biggest Brahea armata who is getting to big for the place it's been planted in years ago. I will need to break away the stone wall and give it more space and earth around the base of the stem. 

 

 

What livistona is this? It’s completely spineless 🤔 

[Axel Amsterdam]

Thanks Kristof, i remember the armata from many years ago, it has grown very well. One thing that puzzles me are the brown leaftips. Is it in a particularly windy spot? My armata, pictured on the first page, never has leaf damage, but it’s protected from the wind by walls.

[kristof p]

31 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thanks Kristof, i remember the armata from many years ago, it has grown very well. One thing that puzzles me are the brown leaftips. Is it in a particularly windy spot? My armata, pictured on the first page, never has leaf damage, but it’s protected from the wind by walls.

it is a little sheltered from strong winds but south west facing. Almost all my palms look beathen up by the strong winds we had for weeks on end for the last 3 or 4 months... The brown tips are mostley on old leaves. The newer leaves don't have this as much.  My smaller Brahea in the back garden is "shedding" the older leaves but is also looking good after this winter. You can see the B. edulis in the background. It suffered some moderate damage but is fine otherwise. 

 

the smaller B. armata.

[kristof p]

57 minutes ago, RJ said:

1 hour ago, kristof p said:

While I was at my parents home this morning I made a few pics of the Livistona. It is dificult to get a good picture of the plant because of it's location and a T. nova growing in front of it. It has slowly grown a bit during the winter. It looks very healthy . Credits to my mother who wrapped every leaf seperately in fleece and also the spears everytime we have a cold spell. The bits sticking out of the fleece do burn when it freezes! The fleece makes a huge differance it seems.

I threw in a picture of my biggest Brahea armata who is getting to big for the place it's been planted in years ago. I will need to break away the stone wall and give it more space and earth around the base of the stem. 

 

 

What livistona is this? It’s completely spineless 🤔 

Expand  

L. chinensis

[RJ]

27 minutes ago, kristof p said:

L. chinensis

That’s what it looked like to me, but mine has some serious spines on it, nothing compared to saribus but you still need to be weary of them. Interesting that yours has very few. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

I walked by the large jubaea’s in the Amsterdam zoo today. Not a great picture but i hope these will look great in the coming years. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Some sunshine on the way back for a better picture

[Las Palmas Norte]

^^^ We have a winner ! ^^^

[kristof p]

18 hours ago, RJ said:

That’s what it looked like to me, but mine has some serious spines on it, nothing compared to saribus but you still need to be weary of them. Interesting that yours has very few. 

Maybe it is because it never gets direct sunlight?

[kristof p]

16 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Some sunshine on the way back for a better picture

Those will be fine... they already look great but it will take a few years for them to be fully established. In 2010 my smaller Jubaea got spearpulled but never showed any damage after this. It has taken off in recent years...

[Arecaceus]

Those Jubaeas are amazing!

[Ryland]

I'm really pleased to see all of these.  Wonderful palms in a fairly difficult climate (not unlike mine).  Thanks for sharing.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Today i drove through The Hague and noticed a nice sized washingtonia with brown crispy fronds. I had no time for a picture so looked it up on streetview. 

Picture from November 2022

[Axel Amsterdam]

Apparently it is used to the yearly defoliation because in april 2019 it looked like this

[Axel Amsterdam]

And it was already there in 2015 which is remarkable for Holland

[Ryland]

@Axel Amsterdam that gives me hope that my own Washingtonia could survive long term!  Complete defoliation this year, but looks like it's going to survive.  No damage in the two previous winters since it was planted in 2019.

I am amazed that these are being grown in Holland at all, it's nice to see.

[Arecaceus]

11 hours ago, Ryland said:

@Axel Amsterdam that gives me hope that my own Washingtonia could survive long term!  Complete defoliation this year, but looks like it's going to survive.  No damage in the two previous winters since it was planted in 2019.

I am amazed that these are being grown in Holland at all, it's nice to see.

Which one do you have? Robusta, filifera or hybrid?

[Ryland]

22 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Which one do you have? Robusta, filifera or hybrid?

I can't be sure - apparently most are hybrid these days but mine looks about as robusta as they come.  It wasn't labelled when I bought it - it was a mistake palm lurking amongst the Trachycarpus in a local garden centre.  I never planned to have a Washingtonia but couldn't pass it up.  I have never seen a Washingtonia deliberately for sale in a garden centre around here, but it seems like they must offer them occasionally down south based on their prevalence in London.

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, Ryland said:

I can't be sure - apparently most are hybrid these days but mine looks about as robusta as they come.  It wasn't labelled when I bought it - it was a mistake palm lurking amongst the Trachycarpus in a local garden centre.  I never planned to have a Washingtonia but couldn't pass it up.  I have never seen a Washingtonia deliberately for sale in a garden centre around here, but it seems like they must offer them occasionally down south based on their prevalence in London.

You rarely find them in garden centers here as well. At least compared to other plants. Usually they are all labeld as robusta. I have never picked one up; last year I was tempted to but because I already have two Washies I didn't. One garden centre is constantly selling them even at trunking sizes but the garden centre and its plants all look terrible and are full of weeds. I never bought anything there. Good luck with your robusta. It surely has a big chance of surviving. So far, for me filifera has turned out to be hardier even with the rather wet winters here. Filibusta seems to do fine as well. But robusta I lost one in February 2021.

[Foxpalms]

4 hours ago, Ryland said:

I can't be sure - apparently most are hybrid these days but mine looks about as robusta as they come.  It wasn't labelled when I bought it - it was a mistake palm lurking amongst the Trachycarpus in a local garden centre.  I never planned to have a Washingtonia but couldn't pass it up.  I have never seen a Washingtonia deliberately for sale in a garden centre around here, but it seems like they must offer them occasionally down south based on their prevalence in London.

There's a good amount of them for sale in London and in almost all exotic plant nurseries you will find them for sale. As you start going outside London they become less common in garden centers untill you get near to costal locations. They are nowhere near as commonly sold as phoenix canariensis. They are usually robustas or hybrids however I have seen some sell filifera. Last summer robusta triples seemed to be pretty popular.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Not a great picture but this CIDP is a survivor in our wet gloomy winterclimate. It was planted in 2020 and winter of 2020/2021 completely defoliated it after a week of consecutive freezing days with -4C during the day (at worst) and -8C during the night (at the lowest). The CIDP next to it was gone. It grew back some nice fronds in the 2 years after. Today after a cold period in December and no growing springtemps yet it looks ok with only a brown spear and ready for another year. The owners cut some lower fronds perhaps for the kids or because of winter damage. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

Picture from Februari

[jwitt]

On 3/13/2023 at 8:53 AM, MarcusH said:

 Low teens for robustas are fatal.  

Not true unless you include multiple consecutive days below freezing.  

Heck, they grow long term in 8a climates(yearly average of low teens) in climates without freezing daytime highs, day after day.

In fact, they can be hardy well below zero.

 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Not true unless you include multiple consecutive days below freezing.  

Heck, they grow long term in 8a climates(yearly average of low teens) in climates without freezing daytime highs, day after day.

In fact, they can be hardy well below zero.

 

You're right. Robustas can handle brief temps in the low teens but there has to be a significant warm up after the freeze is over . Lots of Robustas died in February 2021 in Texas . 

Edited March 22, 2023 by MarcusH

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

 Lots of Robustas died in February 2021 in Texas . 

I'm not quite clear. You say in you previous post that low teens are fatal to robusta.  Then you say brief time at low teens are ok.  

But a significant warmup is needed post the teens for survival. 

I am just asking as I am interested in palms, hence my post. 

So my question are:

1-what do you think killed the robusta in 2021 Texas less than a month before official spring(late winter)? Low teens or lack of warmup? Or something else?

2What would you consider a non- brief(extended) time for robusta to remain in the teens and then become most likely fatal?

3 What do you consider a significant warming post a teen event, needed for survival?

Marcus, I am just trying to learn more about this palm species and what I know, or think I know.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by jwitt

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

I'm not quite clear. You say in you previous post that low teens are fatal to robusta.  Then you say brief time at low teens are ok.  

But a significant warmup is needed post the teens for survival. 

I am just asking as I am interested in palms, hence my post. 

So my question are:

1-what do you think killed the robusta in 2021 Texas less than a month before official spring(late winter)? Low teens or lack of warmup? Or something else?

2What would you consider a non- brief(extended) time for robusta to remain in the teens and then become most likely fatal?

3 What do you consider a significant warming post a teen event, needed for survival?

Marcus, I am just trying to learn more about this palm species and what I know, or think I know.

 

I'm not an expert either but this is what I can tell and learned and maybe someone else can add something to my comment. Washingtonia Robusta are cold hardy in zones 9a plus first of all.  I wasn't here in San Antonio when the big freeze came over but prio to the freeze SA had a lot of large pure Robustas . Some surivived Palmaggedon but not so many at all . What's left are usually hybrids and filiferas.  They're hardy down to 20F but apparently they can survive colder temperatures as long as temperatures don't stay below freezing for too long. How long I don't know I'm sure someone else can answer that but every hour below their tolerance will cause damage ( all depends on how much colder it gets ) . We had another artic blast with lows of 16,21,24,28 in December.  The robustas are recovering so far.  

[jwitt]

@Axel Amsterdam

Amazing palms! For me, the oleander speaks volumes on your climate.  Mild enough with some apparent heat!

[Axel Amsterdam]

6 minutes ago, jwitt said:

@Axel Amsterdam

Amazing palms! For me, the oleander speaks volumes on your climate.  Mild enough with some apparent heat!

Thanks, yes the many oleanders around here show that the climate isn’t that cold, but the cold season is just a little too cold for too long for washingtonia, Cidp’s etc. When i see pictures of burned down oleanders in a desert climate but washingtonia’s easily surviving there i realise climates have very different impacts on various plants.

[Arecaceus]

On 3/23/2023 at 6:40 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

Thanks, yes the many oleanders around here show that the climate isn’t that cold, but the cold season is just a little too cold for too long for washingtonia, Cidp’s etc. When i see pictures of burned down oleanders in a desert climate but washingtonia’s easily surviving there i realise climates have very different impacts on various plants.

I have many volunteering Oleanders in my garden with seeds coming from plants that were already grown from seeds on a naturally pollinated Oleander in my front garden. They are much hardier than their reputation (at least here). Before I got into Oleanders I thought you couldn't grow them because they can't handle ANY frost. This year I have minor burns on the seeding seed grown plants. No burn on my front garden one, which also survived the Feb. 2021 freeze without protection. It lost all its leaves then but came back from the branches! Not the ground. The seed grown ones in my garden survived with only some damage with the help of fleece in Feb. 2021. This year I only have major burn on a small Oleander I got from a building supplies store but it didn't look too good before winter either. Not sure what's the reason. Other than mine you start to see them more often everywhere around here. Usually in small courtyards or in those solid concrete planters along streets.

These are the seedpods of the seed grown ones. Picture is from late November 2022. I cut them all off as they started to open in January and they really become like weeds in every corner of your garden and even further because of their very light seeds flying everywhere.

[Axel Amsterdam]

I found out about another jubaea in Holland, this time around 90 miles inland. Streetview picture april 2022. As you can see there is also a CIDP and a butia in the garden, i am sure these get protected as the inland location can be very cold in wintertime.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

I don’t know if the large jubaea ever gets protection but it has been in situ for a long time and in april 2009 it looked like this

Edited March 27, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Arecaceus]

3 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I don’t know if the large jubaea ever gets protection but it has been in situ for a long time and in april 2009 it looked like this

They look very good. I don't know where they are located but microclimate looks quite good (trees and buildings). Is this in a city or a rural area? I know that the flat open planes West from here and East from you can get very cold. How did you find them? I wish we had proper StreetView here. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is a better picture of the jubaea. I checked and it get’s full winter protection every year, a large construction with heating. Perhaps this also explains the relatively small crown. 

It’s growing near the border of Germany in a cold winter area.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

This is a better picture of the jubaea. I checked and it get’s full winter protection every year, a large construction with heating. Perhaps this also explains the relatively small crown. 

It’s growing near the border of Germany in a cold winter area.

But does a Jubaea this size need so much protection? I mean even out in the open planes? At this size it should be more than fine. Can you give a location or not because of privacy reasons?

[Axel Amsterdam]

51 minutes ago, Hortulanus said:

But does a Jubaea this size need so much protection? I mean even out in the open planes? At this size it should be more than fine. Can you give a location or not because of privacy reasons?

Yes i agree with you on the protective measures but perhaps they are a little anxious to keep this unique and pricey palm. Its located in Weert Limburg.

[Arecaceus]

6 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Yes i agree with you on the protective measures but perhaps they are a little anxious to keep this unique and pricey palm. Its located in Weert Limburg.

Yes that might be the reason. And very interesting location. But I think it's in one of the coldest parts of the southern Netherlands. From there maybe even a bit above down to Aachen and Liege is a real cold pocket. At least that is what it looks like on temperature maps during cold periods. But still I believe at this size they could leave it without protection. But who knows. Rural areas usually also have more humidity. Did you know that the language Limburgs is the same language tradiontally spoken in most of Düsseldorf? Probably not. But I find it pretty interesting. 😂

[Axel Amsterdam]

I noticed a nice vulcano. Hardy, but this variety is still a bit rare.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is my small princeps. The foliage looks a bit tropical in the rain. It was unprotected and currently opening it’s spear. The barrel next to it was a recent freebie that i planted for fun. 

[Arecaceus]

4 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

This is my small princeps. The foliage looks a bit tropical in the rain. It was unprotected and currently opening it’s spear. The barrel next to it was a recent freebie that i planted for fun. 

That's a princeps? Mine both look completely different. It looks more like T. ukhrulensis for example. 🧐 Is it a green form or something?