Ever shrinking leaves..

[quaman58]

Hey all,

This is a question asked before, but thought I'd share a couple images..Small, stunted leaves in late winter I can understand. But when the rest of the garden has been rockin' for the last couple of months and these palms are sending out ever smaller leaves, well, it's driving me crazy trying to figure it out...Adding to the frustration is the fact that these are supposed to be easy ones around here. If I was more sensitive, I'd say they didn't like me...

Howea Belmoreana: note every leaf is getting smaller..

Hyophorbe Indica (red form) It's hard to say if the spear will make a bigger leaf, but as it's already opening, I'm not hopeful.

Bret

[chris78]

Hi Bret

Where were these palms growing before you planted them?? If they were greenhouse grown or from a warm, wet climate before you planted them, they are going through an adjustment peroid, to the cooler and dryer outside enviroment they are now in.

They should adjust in time but it may take some time for this to happen. It may take a few years before normal size leaves are produce. They do look health though.

[quaman58]

Chris,

The Howea's been in the ground a couple of years now, in lightly filtered sun under an Acacia tree. The Hyophorbe's been in a pot until recently. It was probably hardest plant I've ever had to acclimate from the greenhouse. It just did not like being outside & it showed it.  But after several months finally started growing again, so I figured I was home free----NOT!

B/R's

Bret

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Bret...shrinking leaves sometimes mean shrinking roots. Are you overwatering?

[Jeff Searle]

So many times, if you treat it with some manganese, this will clear it up. Powder form sprinkled around the base of the palm and then watered in.

[glbower]

Is that indica red planted in full sun? I planted two small ones in early April in full sun here in SW Florida, and they were doing fine until early June. Then,  mid-summer sun did them both in. Fronds kept getting smaller and paler until they croaked. Planted two greens at the same time. The one in jparatial shade is doing great; the one in more sun is showing the same symptoms and is barely hanging on, even though I am shading it now with a potted Wodyetia. I think the reds are difinitely more sun-sensitive than the green form.

[quaman58]

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Steve--I try to be pretty consistant about watering, but it's something for me to be aware of..

Jeff--When you apply Manganese, is it as part of an overall fertilizer or all by itself? Where do I get it?

glbower--Yeah, it's in full sun, but I'm pretty close to the coast, so there's not nearly the intensity you'd see in Florida. But both plant fronds are a nice healthy green. Your comment about red & green form's sun tolerance is interesting also. I figured they were same...Shows you what I know!

Bret

[Dave Butler]

Manganese Sulfate use it by itself, And then water it in. 2 weeks later hit it again.

Home depot or garden supply.

[BS Man about Palms]

I've been getting this on my Green indica also!  I hope we (someone) figures out the cause.

[Tyrone]

(Jeff Searle @ Aug. 12 2006,10:42)

QUOTE

So many times, if you treat it with some manganese, this will clear it up. Powder form sprinkled around the base of the palm and then watered in.

Yep, totally agree. I read somewhere that manganese and zinc are a couple so to speak, so I'd dose the area around the Howea with both manganese and zinc. Here in Oz you can get both in one packet. I've seen small H belmoreana's do that before and the manganese and zinc seem to fix it. You may need to make 2 or 3 applications to fully right the wrong and then keep the fertiliser program up with a "complete" fertiliser that has decent amounts of the two minerals in it when ever you would normally fertilise.

regards

Tyrone

[Kris]

Dear Guys  

a very useful topic has been inisiated_thanks for that.

and all these years some of my palms did have the same

problem as seen in the above post pictures.

i used to feed with N-P-K fert and some micro nutrients

but i did not know that manganese sulphate & Zinc.

and i have tried magnesium sulphate to prevent lethal-

yellowing in palms.

But Manganese sulphate is new stuff to me_thanks for that

Info !

Love,

Kris.

[DoomsDave]

quaman:

I've found Hyophorbe indica to be relatively easy in pots, but not in the ground.  I've also found them susceptible to rotting at the base, falling over and dying en masse.  

I suspect that your problem is mine, and next time I'll try some micronutes . . . .

dave

[glbower]

Dave - Both my dead indica reds, at the end, rotted at the base, too. Just a little tug, and it was all over.  I attributed the rot to overall weakness caused by sun scorch, but they were in pretty bad soil as well. Whatever, managanese tomorrow on my two remaining greens and an Archontophoenix purpurea that is suffering from the same symptoms.

[epicure3]

I am having the same problem with my ptychosperma elegans. They were greenhouse grown and then thrown out into the cold cruel world. The last 2 fronds that have come out were stunted. The third also looks like it's going to be a loser. I am not that concerned about it. Although they are stunted, they are a rich green color. I attribute it to the really cold weather we had back in April. I am sure that you remember. Nights in the low 40s and highs in the low 50s. I feel confidant that they will grow out of it at some point. I just fertilized today. We'll see.

[epicure3]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Aug. 14 2006,21:21)

QUOTE

quaman:

I've found Hyophorbe indica to be relatively easy in pots, but not in the ground.  I've also found them susceptible to rotting at the base, falling over and dying en masse.  

I suspect that your problem is mine, and next time I'll try some micronutes . . . .

dave

Hey Dave:

One of my indicas actually has a huge flower bract right now, so I think it's pretty happy. It is about 10 feet tall with about 3-4 feet of white trunk. I'll try and post a pic soon.

[paulgila]

i'd love to see it.seems like these palms a little tricky.

there a some nice specimens at the s.d. zoo & the last palm tour here in s.d. also...

i have the shrinking leaf problem with things that are a bit marginal for our area,specifiaclly pinanga sp.& clinostigma.

[Tyrone]

I think in marginal species, cold winters will cause the little leaf syndrome, probably due to slow root uptake of nutrients such as manganese etc. But I forgot to mention another thing that needs looking at when micro-nutrient uptake seems to be wrong. The soil pH. If the soil is significantly acidic around 5-5.5 or lower, certain nutrients can be locked away. I used to have a chart of what nutrients were locked away at what pH value, but I've lost it. I think when pH is low ie acidic, nutrients such as manganese and zinc are locked away a bit. Bringing the pH up a bit around 7 or neutral can help the situation. pH values around 6.5 to 7 don't tend to lock up any nutrients. In the pic of the Howea belmoreana the small leaf problem could be a pH problem. My sister had the same problem with her belmoreana. Her sandy soil had a pH of 5 -5.5 and Howea's like a 7 or slightly higher ie limestone soil. She gave the plant some Manganese, Zinc , and some Dolomite lime and it corrected itself. It's just a thought.

The H indica's that  are rotting is probably something else IMO. They don't like too much water and will just rot if over watered. Also drainage needs to be perfect. We've got sandy soil here and mine keep growing thru winter. I've got 2 with over a meter of clear trunk and one is also putting flower spikes out. They've grown like rockets and take anything the weather here dishes out. However I've killed them in pots by over watering.

regards

Tyrone

[quaman58]

Tyrone,

Thanks for the insight, but I'm a dunce when talking about ph levels. Is it the lime that raises it? Is that also something that can be bought at a garden center? The garden centers I checked with yesterday about the Manganese sulphate looked at me like I had 3 heads--I got the feeling I was being way to specific for them. They kept wanting to sell me "complete" ferts that contained it.

Bret

[Tyrone]

Bret,

Here in Oz at the equivalent to your Home Depot stores, they sell trace elements in various styles etc in the fertiliser section. They're normally in much smaller packs than the full blown fertilisers because they're trace elements, only a little compared to the NPK in most fertilisers. If you can, ask to speak to a horticulturist if they have one. They should know what you're talking about in regards to Manganese sulphate etc. If they don't, WELL..........

Anyway Lime or Dolomite lime is mainly Calcium carbonate, this increases the pH level. Personally I wouldn't try changing any pH level until you've actually got a test result from your garden and it is too acidic or too alkaline. Get a pH test kit and test your soil surface, one foot down, 2 ft down, and if you're energetic 3 ft down. The pH can vary from layer to layer. If they are around 6 - 7.5 I wouldn't worry. That is pretty much OK. but if it falls out of that zone it could be a problem. The way to figure it all out is the lower the number, the more acid soil you have, the higher number is more alkaline or limy soil.

pH actually is an abbreviation for "per Hydrogen". It is a logarithmic scale and refers to the amount of free Hydrogen ions in the mix. The more free hydrogen the more acid it is. The Hydrogen ion is the active (burning ) part of all acids. To give you an idea a pH of 1 is basically battery acid, whereas a pH of 13 is basically caustic soda. The pH scale runs from 0 to 14. You really don't need to know all of that chemistry stuff for gardening, but it does show that the pH can have a very large bearing on the plants own chemistry.

I hope I haven't muddied the water for you.

best regards

Tyrone

[quaman58]

Wow. Thanks for that Professor Tyrone. Far from "muddying the water", it helped explain not only what to look for, but WHY. With any luck, before too long you'll see images of same plants in a healthier state.

B/R's

Bret

[Fred Zone 10A]

I hate to throw another theory into the mix, but in several cases where I've had "little leaf syndrome" the problem has been fungal infection.  Right now I've got a Brahea aculeata that started pushing much smaller leaves.  I didn't notice it until three or four smaller leaves came out.  You can now see the effects of the infection on the leaves and petioles.  Fortunately this palm is now pushing out a normal-sized leaf.  I'll try to remember to take a photo and post it.

The same thing happened three years ago on a Livistona decipiens (decora) and it recovered completely after I poured a fungicide cocktail down its crown.

One other instance where I've had "little leaf syndrome" is after moving a palm (see my thread on Euterpe edulis).  I suspect it's transplant shock.

[DoomsDave]

(epicure3 @ Aug. 16 2006,01:44)

QUOTE

(Dave from So-Cal @ Aug. 14 2006,21:21)

QUOTE

quaman:

I've found Hyophorbe indica to be relatively easy in pots, but not in the ground.  I've also found them susceptible to rotting at the base, falling over and dying en masse.  

I suspect that your problem is mine, and next time I'll try some micronutes . . . .

dave

Hey Dave:

One of my indicas actually has a huge flower bract right now, so I think it's pretty happy. It is about 10 feet tall with about 3-4 feet of white trunk. I'll try and post a pic soon.

Gimme warning, bro, so when I rip off my clothes and scream, the neighbors won't worry.

(Oy, that's just Dave, surfing the palm-site on the web again!)

Seriously, Mongo LOVE picture!

dave

[DoomsDave]

Hey bret:

That mitt and arm look so much like mine, I almost had a seance to see if I was kidnapped by aliens.

But!  You've got a nice watch, bro.  MUCH nicer than my cheapie!

dave