Windmill palm damage in Nashville

[Landasaw]

Palms of any kind are uncommon around here but I found this at a Mexican restaurant just south of Nashville. Looks like winter Was .not so kind to it.

[Palmaceae]

Does not look good at all. Mine was severally damaged at 4 degrees F but at least all the petioles are green and may come back. The one pictured looks not to have any green at all. Unfortunately, we are forecasted to be in the low 20's for the next 2 nights which will not help.

[Allen]

The flowers look new so maybe alive.  Palms went thru a 25 year low here so it will be lucky to be alive.  probably saw around 0F

Edited March 18, 2023 by Allen

[PaPalmTrees]

1 hour ago, Landasaw said:

Palms of any kind are uncommon around here but I found this at a Mexican restaurant just south of Nashville. Looks like winter Was .not so kind to it.

do you mind sharing the location on google maps

[Landasaw]

It’s in Antioch.. I’m not sure if I know how to share it on Google maps. I live about half an hour north of there and we are predicted to be down to 20 and 21 the next couple nights. I have a pindo with spear pull And a needle in bad shape. Hoping we’re out of the woods after that and they pull through

[WSimpson]

I think it will make it . I see green petioles in the center . I'd ask them if you can prune off the dead petioles and fronds for a free meal . 😃

[PaPalmTrees]

ok its ok

 

 

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Landasaw said:

It’s in Antioch.. I’m not sure if I know how to share it on Google maps. I live about half an hour north of there and we are predicted to be down to 20 and 21 the next couple nights. I have a pindo with spear pull And a needle in bad shape. Hoping we’re out of the woods after that and they pull through

What's the restaurant name?

[WSimpson]

I planted this one at Mi Pueblo Mexican Restaurant ( Mi Alpo ; the food is good but I have funny names for a lot of restaurants and businesses lol )  in Winston-Salem when it was a tiny 3 gallon plant . It seems to be really hardy and looks less damaged than my Trachys . 

Will

 

[Landasaw]

The restaurant is called “Casa Fiesta” in Antioch  

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Landasaw said:

The restaurant is called “Casa Fiesta” in Antioch  

Looks like the palm has been there and grown a lot since about 2019

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0447615,-86.6632105,3a,75y,3.7h,80.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s94MHezRSr-21dHcGVSlMyg!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

2019

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0451573,-86.6633099,3a,75y,330.09h,81.47t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1so_Mmj9ZKxiiS1yj08idbkQ!2e0!5s20190401T000000!7i16384!8i8192

2022

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0450503,-86.6629838,3a,37.5y,299.99h,90.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_Z8GHiqVxSc2AmzcGQ-cQw!2e0!5s20220401T000000!7i16384!8i8192

2023

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0451292,-86.6629612,3a,75y,311.66h,74.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5ISHXhRbu4cZbEgcruK6TQ!2e0!5s20230101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Edited March 18, 2023 by Allen

[jwitt]

Gonna bloom and some green towards the spear. I say it will likely live.

[Landasaw]

If they don’t Decide to tear it down

[Las Palmas Norte]

The inflorescence is present so there's no doubt it's alive. 

[SeanK]

Atlanta metro went through 5° to 6° low with 50% burn on Trachycarpus. 100% on the waggies. I see now that it wasn't just old leaves damaged on fortuneis. Even last year's growth has burnt leaflets that has shown itself after last week.

[Allen]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:16 PM, Landasaw said:

Palms of any kind are uncommon around here but I found this at a Mexican restaurant just south of Nashville. Looks like winter Was .not so kind to it.

 

 

Today

[RFun]

Yeah, as I suspected the palm would bounce back.  As long as the cold doesn't stick around, many cold hardy palms will be ok.  I see Nashville got down to -1F, but the cold certainly didn't stick around.  Actually surprised the Trachy showed that much damage after one night of -1F, considering it's a sheltered spot.  Typically, might have some minimal damage to Trachys, Sabal minor and Palmetto palms around 5F, but those palms have all seen colder and have come back from it.  Look no further than areas of North Carolina for subzero temps and those palms bouncing back.  Even Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before.  Savannah, GA has seen 3F.  If anything, events like that will quickly weed out any weak palms.  Of course, you can add protection, if it is needed.  I'd recommend the hardier variety of Trachys for the Nashville area.  Maybe something that came from the inland areas of the Southeast.  You really can't go wrong with Sabal minor.

Edited September 18, 2023 by RFun

[Palmfarmer]

I saw some big project where a developer was planting a ton of Palmettos near Knoxville, TN. 

Is Memphis the warmest area of Tennessee by the way and can butias and stuff grow there? 

[WSimpson]

I don't think Knoxville would be a good place for Palmettos . It's in a colder area of Tenn . I am lucky to be just over the mountains from Knoxville , and  the mountains protect my area a lot by blocking some of the coldest air . 

I would think that Memphis would be a much better place for Palmettos and Butias . Memphis is further south and away from the mountains with an elevation of 338'  , and Knoxville has an elevation of 886' . 

Weather Highlights

Memphis, Tennessee
Summer High: the July high is around 90.9 degrees
Winter Low: the January low is 30.3
Rain: averages 54.1 inches of rain a year
Snow: averages 3 inches of snow a year

Knoxville, Tennessee
Summer High: the July high is around 88.1 degrees
Winter Low: the January low is 27.9
Rain: averages 50.3 inches of rain a year
Snow: averages 5.8 inches of snow a year

Will

Edited September 21, 2023 by Will Simpson

[ryjohn]

The wind during this cold event last winter was brutal.  So while the duration wasn’t particularly long, the damage was severe.  I was in Nashville over New Year’s Eve (just after) and even many zone 6-7 evergreens were fried.  But the Southern Mags looked great.  Down here in northeast Louisiana we got to 9 or 10 degrees and I lost 4 of my 5 large 17-year old satsuma trees.  All Indian Hawthorns around town were killed too but very few washingtonias.  Killed all my trunking form chamaedorea radicalis as well that had been through multiple single digit 24 hour plus duration freezes just fine.  Ichang Lemon, Yuzu, and Albaquina olive lost about 50% of limbs back to the main trunk

[RFun]

15 hours ago, ryjohn said:

The wind during this cold event last winter was brutal.  So while the duration wasn’t particularly long, the damage was severe.  I was in Nashville over New Year’s Eve (just after) and even many zone 6-7 evergreens were fried.  But the Southern Mags looked great.  Down here in northeast Louisiana we got to 9 or 10 degrees and I lost 4 of my 5 large 17-year old satsuma trees.  All Indian Hawthorns around town were killed too but very few washingtonias.  Killed all my trunking form chamaedorea radicalis as well that had been through multiple single digit 24 hour plus duration freezes just fine.  Ichang Lemon, Yuzu, and Albaquina olive lost about 50% of limbs back to the main trunk

It could be that the wind was bad there in Nashville.  I don't have the information on how bad the wind was, but typically, when it gets that cold, the winds are quite calm.  I know most of the areas affected by that cold snap (the Southeast) had calm to light winds that night/morning.  If you're worried about winds, it's quite easy to find sheltered spots.  Length of cold snaps is going to be the most important factor, from my experience.

Edited September 24, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:11 PM, Palmfarmer said:

I saw some big project where a developer was planting a ton of Palmettos near Knoxville, TN. 

Is Memphis the warmest area of Tennessee by the way and can butias and stuff grow there? 

Memphis and Chattanooga would be two examples of the warmest areas you'll find in Tennessee.  The 100 year average minimum temperature from Weather.gov has both in zone 8a.  I have seen Sabal Palmettos in both places.  You can also grow Sabal minors and Trachys there (might as well try Serenoa repens, Butias and European Fan Palms).  Knoxville gets more cold from the cold snaps.  It's probably better for Sabal minors and Trachys, although who is to say any severe cold will return?  You just can't predict it.  The key is really the length of the cold snaps.

Edited September 24, 2023 by RFun

[DreaminAboutPalms]

There are some surprisingly decent looking ones around. It’s doable, just have to have a good way to protect 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

4 hours ago, RFun said:

Memphis and Chattanooga would be two examples of the warmest areas you'll find in Tennessee.  The 100 year average minimum temperature from Weather.gov has both in zone 8a.  I have seen Sabal Palmettos in both places.  You can also grow Sabal minors and Trachys there (might as well try Serenoa repens, Butias and European Fan Palms).  Knoxville gets more cold from the cold snaps.  It's probably better for Sabal minors and Trachys, although who is to say any severe cold will return?  You just can't predict it.  The key is really the length of the cold snaps.

Sabal louisianas are perfect for that region 

[RFun]

21 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Sabal louisianas are perfect for that region 

Yes, I'd put them under the category of Sabal minors.  The Nashville area will probably see some cold snaps once in a while where protection will be required for all but the hardiest of the bunch.

Edited September 24, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:24 AM, SeanK said:

Atlanta metro went through 5° to 6° low with 50% burn on Trachycarpus. 100% on the waggies. I see now that it wasn't just old leaves damaged on fortuneis. Even last year's growth has burnt leaflets that has shown itself after last week.

Sounds like you have a batch of some weak palms there.  My friend lives in the Atlanta metro and his Palmetto Palms, Sabal minors, Trachies, European Fan Palms and Butias never did show any signs of damage after one night of 7F during that cold event.  The cold never seems to stick around long there or here.  That cold never made it over this way this time.  Only around 26-27F here in the Brunswick area.  I should have planted a bunch of Kings lol.

Edited September 24, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:26 PM, RFun said:

Sounds like you have a batch of some weak palms there.  My friend lives in the Atlanta metro and his Palmetto Palms, Sabal minors, Trachies, European Fan Palms and Butias never did show any signs of damage after one night of 7F during that cold event.  The cold never seems to stick around long there or here.  That cold never made it over this way this time.  Only around 26-27F here in the Brunswick area.  I should have planted a bunch of Kings lol.

Most of the big Jelly palms died this year. Not many European fans, but those were cut to the ground. Your friend is protecting his palms over the winter to be sure.

[RFun]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:07 PM, SeanK said:

Most of the big Jelly palms died this year. Not many European fans, but those were cut to the ground. Your friend is protecting his palms over the winter to be sure.

No, his palms received no protection whatsoever.  Really, one night at 7F is nothing.  Cold hardy palms have seen much worse and bounced back.  For example, Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before.  Look no further than inland parts of North Carolina for some hardy palms.

[Allen]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

No, his palms received no protection whatsoever.  Really, one night at 7F is nothing.  Cold hardy palms have seen much worse and bounced back.  For example, Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before.  Look no further than inland parts of North Carolina for some hardy palms.

What palms are you growing?  Do you have pics?

[RFun]

I'm growing Pindo Palms, Canary Date Island Palms, Sabal Palms, Washingtonia Filifera, Washingtonia Robusta, Serenoa Repens, Sabal minor, Chinese Fan Palms, Windmill Palms, European Fan Palms and Sago Palms here.  I'll have to take some pics.

Edited September 29, 2023 by RFun

[teddytn]

At least middle TN is a little different. Our climate 90% of the year is fantastic for gardening. There’s tons of years on Christmas that I’m wearing shorts. Where NC away from the mountains around Raleigh or GA around Atlanta, or Fayetteville area are all well inland away from the ocean but their winter blasts don’t last long. And even very low temps are followed by a good daytime warm up. Here in middle TN when we get a winter storm it’s bad. 2” or more of solid ice can be expected every year in one event. We get snow that sometimes persists for a week or more. This past winter at my house ultimate low of -4f with a high of -1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I think nashville was -1f with a high of 1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I saw the effect it had on the plants and palms in my yard. Even on a more typical winter where we see single digits around 5f that cold lasts so long that I can’t see unprotected windmills being a consistent thing here. Really need 7b zone long term for the next level of cool palms to survive no problem. 7a here is so vastly different even though it’s doesn’t seem like it should be

[Allen]

2 hours ago, teddytn said:

At least middle TN is a little different. Our climate 90% of the year is fantastic for gardening. There’s tons of years on Christmas that I’m wearing shorts. Where NC away from the mountains around Raleigh or GA around Atlanta, or Fayetteville area are all well inland away from the ocean but their winter blasts don’t last long. And even very low temps are followed by a good daytime warm up. Here in middle TN when we get a winter storm it’s bad. 2” or more of solid ice can be expected every year in one event. We get snow that sometimes persists for a week or more. This past winter at my house ultimate low of -4f with a high of -1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I think nashville was -1f with a high of 1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I saw the effect it had on the plants and palms in my yard. Even on a more typical winter where we see single digits around 5f that cold lasts so long that I can’t see unprotected windmills being a consistent thing here. Really need 7b zone long term for the next level of cool palms to survive no problem. 7a here is so vastly different even though it’s doesn’t seem like it should be

I'll post my LOW temp chart for anyone interested since this is a Nashville thread.  Mature Trachycarpus can get lucky for several years here with no protection.  But around 50% of years we drop below 12F which is the point where Trachycarpus start having frond damage.  If you look close you'll see Jan is our danger time with some risk thru mid Feb.  I use this chart to determine my risk level for covering/uncovering palms and planting tropicals

Green - 21F+

Yellow = 15-20

Red = under 15F/ bold = under 10F which is danger for Trachy

Edited September 29, 2023 by Allen

[L.A.M.]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:11 PM, Palmfarmer said:

I saw some big project where a developer was planting a ton of Palmettos near Knoxville, TN. 

Is Memphis the warmest area of Tennessee by the way and can butias and stuff grow there? 

Memphis isn't a good place to plant palms; the popular and readily available Chinese windmill palm and cabbage palmetto aren't reliably cold-hardy there. I've debunked the terrible misconceptions that Chinese windmill palms are able to regularly deal with temperatures below -14 degrees Celsius (10 degrees Fahrenheit) and are the most cold-hardy palm in the world. It's given palms in general a bad rap in Memphis due to totalitarian local ordinances and the widespread misconceptions, even with historical evidence to the contrary in Knoxville. (Some of these old Knoxville palms even miraculously later survived the -31 degree C/-24 degree F horror in January 1985.) Generally, native palms are more reliable than non-native ones, especially in marginal areas. Plus, I saw dead CWPs at Freddy T's restaurant between the state line and the dam, in Zone 7b in a county (Hardin of TN) where a different palm species is actually NATIVE. (I also went to see the Tenn-Tom across the MS state line while I was already close.) https://dailymemphian.com/article/393/Memphis-BBQ-chain-Tops-to-yank-out-dead-palm-trees https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v18n1p25-30.pdf

If you want to try to grow a Chinese windmill palm or cabbage palmetto in Tennessee, your best bet would be to find a warm microclimate in Chattanooga, where palms are far more commonly planted (implying less hostile local ordinances, although I'm not for certain due to not bothering to check) and winters are extremely similar to Memphis's. If you just want a trunking palm in Tennessee, I'd recommend the Birmingham palmetto or Brazoria palmettos, which are little-known hybrids of the cabbage palmetto and our native dwarf palmetto with the former's tree size and latter's cold hardiness. The only palms reliably cold-hardy in most of Tennessee - even the outskirts of Chattanooga and Memphis - are those two plus our native dwarf palmetto and obviously the needle palm. Cookeville's former mayor Ricky Shelton lost two of his four Chinese windmill palms in December 2022 even though he tried to protect them and has a good microclimate, while my dwarf palmetto lost only half of its leaves and started regrowing by late January and needle palm suffered no damage at all that same month despite both of my palms being planted in hostile microclimates (a floodplain with slight temperature inversions in the former case and a sky-exposed, wind-sheltered lawn prone to seasonal and diurnal temperature extremes in the latter case).

[L.A.M.]

On 9/29/2023 at 8:32 AM, teddytn said:

At least middle TN is a little different. Our climate 90% of the year is fantastic for gardening. There’s tons of years on Christmas that I’m wearing shorts. Where NC away from the mountains around Raleigh or GA around Atlanta, or Fayetteville area are all well inland away from the ocean but their winter blasts don’t last long. And even very low temps are followed by a good daytime warm up. Here in middle TN when we get a winter storm it’s bad. 2” or more of solid ice can be expected every year in one event. We get snow that sometimes persists for a week or more. This past winter at my house ultimate low of -4f with a high of -1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I think nashville was -1f with a high of 1f the next day and didn’t go above freezing for 5 days. I saw the effect it had on the plants and palms in my yard. Even on a more typical winter where we see single digits around 5f that cold lasts so long that I can’t see unprotected windmills being a consistent thing here. Really need 7b zone long term for the next level of cool palms to survive no problem. 7a here is so vastly different even though it’s doesn’t seem like it should be

To say that we see 2 inches of solid ice yearly or a week of continuous snow cover on a consistent basis is unduly harsh. Nonetheless, I have noticed several snow events lasting a few days within the past decade, two of which lasted a full week. Destructive freezing rain does also occur in a handful of winters, as it did in February 2015 and especially February 2021, but it got nowhere close to such an extreme depth here even in '21.

[SeanK]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:24 AM, SeanK said:

Atlanta metro went through 5° to 6° low with 50% burn on Trachycarpus. 100% on the waggies. I see now that it wasn't just old leaves damaged on fortuneis. Even last year's growth has burnt leaflets that has shown itself after last week.

I want to correct this. 

There is no discernable difference between fortunei and wagnerianus around here. Both seem 100% reliable at 10°F, and 50% when it drops to 5°F. Even those that defoliated will survive if we get two mild winters in a row. If we get two 5° winters, I believe some will die.

[RFun]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

I want to correct this. 

There is no discernable difference between fortunei and wagnerianus around here. Both seem 100% reliable at 10°F, and 50% when it drops to 5°F. Even those that defoliated will survive if we get two mild winters in a row. If we get two 5° winters, I believe some will die.

That seems pretty weak.  Sounds like you have a weak batch there.

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

That seems pretty weak.  Sounds like you have a weak batch there.

This is based on observation around Gwinnett. No wonder T.fortunei is rated z8a.

[RFun]

6 minutes ago, SeanK said:

This is based on observation around Gwinnett. No wonder T.fortunei is rated z8a.

Trachycarpus Fortunei is usually rated as being hardy to somewhere between 0 and 5F.  And I've seen them take much worse.  Of course, these are not longer periods of time.  That's why I'm saying you have a weak batch you're observing.

Edited October 24, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

Trachycarpus Fortunei is usually rated as being hardy to somewhere between 0 and 5F.  And I've seen them take much worse.  Of course, these are not longer periods of time.  That's why I'm saying you have a weak batch you're observing.

Word-of-Mouth on Internet bulletin boards is less reliable than printed horticultural references written over decades.

[RFun]

12 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Word-of-Mouth on Internet bulletin boards is less reliable than printed horticultural references written over decades.

I can only go on what I've observed.  I have seen various results from people that are actually growing a lot of them.  I've never put them to a test personally (and I'm in the Brunswick, GA area, anyway), but I know what I've seen (including right here on this message board).

Edited October 24, 2023 by RFun