Windmill palm damage in Nashville

[Allen]

Here is some info in one of my videos is all I'm adding to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsD2uaO97lo

 

[RFun]

15 minutes ago, Allen said:

Here is some info in one of my videos is all I'm adding to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsD2uaO97lo

 

For what it's worth, I'm more in line with the North Carolina State University site:

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/trachycarpus-fortunei/

Regardless, I do believe in personal observation, above everything else.

[Allen]

1 minute ago, RFun said:

For what it's worth, I'm more in line with the North Carolina State University site:

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/trachycarpus-fortunei/

Regardless, I do believe in personal observation, above everything else.

Based on the study

[RFun]

Just now, Allen said:

Based on the study

That doesn't look accurate compared to what I've seen.  I'll just say that much.

[SeanK]

22 hours ago, RFun said:

I can only go on what I've observed.  I have seen various results from people that are actually growing a lot of them.  I've never put them to a test personally (and I'm in the Brunswick, GA area, anyway), but I know what I've seen (including right here on this message board).

I envy you living in Brunswick. Have you tried growing silver Queens? I knew a fellow years ago in St Marys who had very good luck with them. Solid in z9a, marginal in z8b. About 5F° better than the normal variety.

[RFun]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

I envy you living in Brunswick. Have you tried growing silver Queens? I knew a fellow years ago in St Marys who had very good luck with them. Solid in z9a, marginal in z8b. About 5F° better than the normal variety.

Not a bad area here for quite a variety of plants, but this is certainly not the tropics either.  No on the Queens or silver Queens, but I've got them on my list of possibilities.  I know I will most likely have no trouble with them here.  This is a pretty darn good area for cold hardy citrus like Satsuma as well.  Certainly, I do like other plants than just palms lol. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by RFun

[L.A.M.]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:40 PM, SeanK said:

Word-of-Mouth on Internet bulletin boards is less reliable than printed horticultural references written over decades.

I second this 100%. Even people in Knoxville knew back in the 1970s that needle palms and our native dwarf palmettos are far more freeze-resistant than Chinese windmill palms. They actually tried all of them, tending to succeed with the former two (many of which are still alive today) and fail with the latter. CWPs are temperate palms in the sense that they can deal with less summer heat and shorter growing seasons, but they're still not extraordinarily freeze-resistant; same with European fan palms, Mexican fan palms and Chilean wine palms. On the other hand, needle palms, dwarf palmettos and hybrids/subspecies of the latter need a hot, lengthy growing season to flourish but can take single-digit cold snaps without damage as long as they have that growing season.

Tennessee isn't a temperate climate. It's a subtropical climate that happens to get random cold snaps and heat waves in winter (the former of which no temperate oceanic palm is adapted to), just like the rest of eastern and central North America do even along the Gulf Coast. We have (undocumented) native dwarf palmettos in Hardeman County (downtown Hornsby) and Hardin County (south of Savannah), and there are old needle palms in Knoxville. Nonetheless, CWPs die in those exact same areas - and really everywhere in the state except the warmest microclimates in Midtown Memphis, Donelson, Antioch and parts of Chattanooga, and even in those places they need shade and actually tend to do slightly worse than cabbage palmettos.

I went to Hendersonville in May 2018. All four Chinese windmill palms at the Streets of Indian Lake were dead, but seven of the eight needle palms were alive - until renovators tore them out instead of building around them. Furthermore, right here in western Putnam County, Chinese windmill palms along Buffalo Valley Road in downtown Baxter died quickly even before 2018 despite an OK microclimate, and my needle palm in a sky-exposed, wind-sheltered lawn (prone to seasonal and diurnal temperature extremes) and dwarf palmetto in a floodplain (prone to slight temperature inversions) both survived unprotected even in December 2022 - with absolutely zero damage in the case of the needle palm and half of its leaves remaining in the case of the dwarf palmetto. From my observations as a mere 20-year-old, native subtropical palm shrubs do WAY better in Tennessee even unprotected in the worst microclimates than temperate oceanic trunking palms could ever hope to even with protection in a shaded non-floodplain area.

[Allen]

2 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

I second this 100%. Even people in Knoxville knew back in the 1970s that needle palms and our native dwarf palmettos are far more freeze-resistant than Chinese windmill palms. They actually tried all of them, tending to succeed with the former two (many of which are still alive today) and fail with the latter. CWPs are temperate palms in the sense that they can deal with less summer heat and shorter growing seasons, but they're still not extraordinarily freeze-resistant; same with European fan palms, Mexican fan palms and Chilean wine palms. On the other hand, needle palms, dwarf palmettos and hybrids/subspecies of the latter need a hot, lengthy growing season to flourish but can take single-digit cold snaps without damage as long as they have that growing season.

Tennessee isn't a temperate climate. It's a subtropical climate that happens to get random cold snaps and heat waves in winter (the former of which no temperate oceanic palm is adapted to), just like the rest of eastern and central North America do even along the Gulf Coast. We have (undocumented) native dwarf palmettos in Hardeman County (downtown Hornsby) and Hardin County (south of Savannah), and there are old needle palms in Knoxville. Nonetheless, CWPs die in those exact same areas - and really everywhere in the state except the warmest microclimates in Midtown Memphis, Donelson, Antioch and parts of Chattanooga, and even in those places they need shade and actually tend to do slightly worse than cabbage palmettos.

I went to Hendersonville in May 2018. All four Chinese windmill palms at the Streets of Indian Lake were dead, but seven of the eight needle palms were alive - until renovators tore them out instead of building around them. Furthermore, right here in western Putnam County, Chinese windmill palms along Buffalo Valley Road in downtown Baxter died quickly even before 2018 despite an OK microclimate, and my needle palm in a sky-exposed, wind-sheltered lawn (prone to seasonal and diurnal temperature extremes) and dwarf palmetto in a floodplain (prone to slight temperature inversions) both survived unprotected even in December 2022 - with absolutely zero damage in the case of the needle palm and half of its leaves remaining in the case of the dwarf palmetto. From my observations as a mere 20-year-old, native subtropical palm shrubs do WAY better in Tennessee even unprotected in the worst microclimates than temperate oceanic trunking palms could ever hope to even with protection in a shaded non-floodplain area.

I pretty much agree with all of this but if you look at my temp chart for Mid TN you can see we only had one event (Dec 2022) in the last 5 years that would have really damaged adult/established  Trachycarpus fortunei.  There was a 11F and a 12F low that might have done cold minor spotting to fronds but not major.  So my point is with minor smart intervention you can have palms here a long time.  Before that we had some streaks of bad years.  But generally you are talking 1-3 cold events that might hurt them in a year here.  A minimalist with one palm here could just wrap a string or 2 of mini's around the palm/cover in frost cloth and be done in 15 minutes per event and only wrap for upcoming cold 1-3 times/year.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Allen

[L.A.M.]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:23 AM, Allen said:

I pretty much agree with all of this but if you look at my temp chart for Mid TN you can see we only had one event (Dec 2022) in the last 5 years that would have really damaged adult/established  Trachycarpus fortunei.  There was a 11F and a 12F low that might have done cold minor spotting to fronds but not major.  So my point is with minor smart intervention you can have palms here a long time.  Before that we had some streaks of bad years.  But generally you are talking 1-3 cold events that might hurt them in a year here.  A minimalist with one palm here could just wrap a string or 2 of mini's around the palm/cover in frost cloth and be done in 15 minutes per event and only wrap for upcoming cold 1-3 times/year.

Still, it gives them a bad rap, and that can make the difference on policy for all palms in more restrictive areas due to misconceptions. Plus, I personally would rather plant a native Sabal brazoriensis and not even need to protect it than a non-native Trachycarpus fortunei which will eventually outgrow any ability to be protected someday anyways, and immature T. fortunei are even more vulnerable while young cold-hardy Sabal species are almost as tough as their mature counterparts.

[Allen]

3 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

Still, it gives them a bad rap, and that can make the difference on policy for all palms in more restrictive areas due to misconceptions. Plus, I personally would rather plant a native Sabal brazoriensis and not even need to protect it than a non-native Trachycarpus fortunei which will eventually outgrow any ability to be protected someday anyways, and immature T. fortunei are even more vulnerable while young cold-hardy Sabal species are almost as tough as their mature counterparts.

True but you'll be 20-30 years waiting on a trunked palm over your head vs 8 on a Trachy. 

[L.A.M.]

19 minutes ago, Allen said:

True but you'll be 20-30 years waiting on a trunked palm over your head vs 8 on a Trachy. 

Indeed. It's worth it, though. They'll be around much longer for people to enjoy.

That's the real question. Do you plant something that grows quickly but won't last or something that grows slowly but can live for many decades if not a century or two? The latter is frustrating to be patient with, but palm fertilizers and water retention could help speed it up at least a little (if you're careful not to overdo it) and is the choice environmentalists, economists and people wanting their grandkids to enjoy them would be most likely to choose. We could build a beach resort or zoo exhibit that the next administration could choose not to replace, or we could build one that will be able to be enjoyed fully for many decades to come after a very human 20-year growing period.

Even in areas where T. fortunei is an option, though - at least North American areas - I would still recommend Sabal palmetto. S. palmetto is actually a bit tougher than T. fortunei in Memphis and Chattanooga, surprisingly (so I'd expect the same in Nashville), and it's not quite as slow-growing as Birmingham, brazoriensis or Louisiana. Last but not least, S. palmetto is also native to the continent - just not suitable for most of Tennessee like Rhapidophyllum and a few especially freeze-resistant Sabal species/hybrids/subspecies are.

Edited November 3, 2023 by L.A.M.

[Allen]

23 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

Indeed. It's worth it, though. They'll be around much longer for people to enjoy.

That's the real question. Do you plant something that grows quickly but won't last or something that grows slowly but can live for many decades if not a century or two? The latter is frustrating to be patient with, but palm fertilizers and water retention could help speed it up at least a little (if you're careful not to overdo it) and is the choice environmentalists, economists and people wanting their grandkids to enjoy them would be most likely to choose. We could build a beach resort or zoo exhibit that the next administration could choose not to replace, or we could build one that will be able to be enjoyed fully for many decades to come after a very human 20-year growing period.

Even in areas where T. fortunei is an option, though - at least North American areas - I would still recommend Sabal palmetto. S. palmetto is actually a bit tougher than T. fortunei in Memphis and Chattanooga, surprisingly (so I'd expect the same in Nashville), and it's not quite as slow-growing as Birmingham, brazoriensis or Louisiana. Last but not least, S. palmetto is also native to the continent - just not suitable for most of Tennessee like Rhapidophyllum and a few especially freeze-resistant Sabal species/hybrids/subspecies are.

True again except in our area I don't think any of the S. palmetto or hybrids could necessarily live long term (Decades or centuries) without protection because the chance for a -5F to -25F event is still there.  So the question is if you grow your brazoria for 20 years and you show a -10F in the forecast are you going to protect it?

Edited November 3, 2023 by Allen

[MattInRaleigh]

In Raleigh, there have been Trachycarpus Fortunei planted in Pullen Park and Jaycee Park since the 1980’s and haven’t died yet. They have definitely seen lower temperatures than zone 8.

Around here, there is a variety called “Taylor Form” that Plant Delights sells that is supposed to be more hardy. I’m not sure if the Pullen Park and Jaycee Park ones are that variety.

[SeanK]

12 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

In Raleigh, there have been Trachycarpus Fortunei planted in Pullen Park and Jaycee Park since the 1980’s and haven’t died yet. They have definitely seen lower temperatures than zone 8.

Around here, there is a variety called “Taylor Form” that Plant Delights sells that is supposed to be more hardy. I’m not sure if the Pullen Park and Jaycee Park ones are that variety.

Even for monoecious palms, there is no guarantee that every F1 is a clone of the parent. So imagine a dioecious palm; never a guarantee. That's why I saw a range of 0% damage to 100% damage here last winter.

Raleigh has a better climate than Nashville or Knoxville. Maybe closer to Memphis?

Edited November 4, 2023 by SeanK

[teddytn]

3 hours ago, SeanK said:

Even for monoecious palms, there is no guarantee that every F1 is a clone of the parent. So imagine a dioecious palm; never a guarantee. That's why I saw a range of 0% damage to 100% damage here last winter.

Raleigh has a better climate than Nashville or Knoxville. Maybe closer to Memphis?

So true. Out of an entire seed stalk full of seeds on any palm there is definitely a wide range of variation all the seedlings can exhibit. Cold tolerance being one of the factors for sure, not talking anything crazy, but I’ve personally had potted palms that I grew from seed show damage at higher temps than the others right next to them. Same goes for size, color, and growth rate. 

[MattInRaleigh]

16 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

In Raleigh, there have been Trachycarpus Fortunei planted in Pullen Park and Jaycee Park since the 1980’s and haven’t died yet. They have definitely seen lower temperatures than zone 8.

Around here, there is a variety called “Taylor Form” that Plant Delights sells that is supposed to be more hardy. I’m not sure if the Pullen Park and Jaycee Park ones are that variety.

Actually,  Plant Delights confirmed the ones planted in Jaycee Park are the “Taylor form” from Taylor’s Nursery in Raleigh.

https://www.plantdelights.com/products/trachycarpus-fortunei-taylor-windmill-palm

As a side note, Jaycee Park has great 40 year old Sabal Birminghams. I’ll snap a picture to share next time I visit the park.

[SeanK]

@MattInRaleigh - An interesting exercise would be to compare minimum temps since 1950 between Charlotte and Raleigh. 

[Allen]

19 minutes ago, SeanK said:

@MattInRaleigh - An interesting exercise would be to compare minimum temps since 1950 between Charlotte and Raleigh. 

From Noaa.  Don't fire the messenger

Min Temps F	Charlotte	Raleigh
1950	11	13
1951	12	10
1952	16	15
1953	11	13
1954	15	13
1955	11	13
1956	19	21
1957	10	10
1958	5	7
1959	10	10
1960	10	11
1961	8	7
1962	2	4
1963	7	7
1964	12	9
1965	13	8
1966	4	3
1967	7	8
1968	14	8
1969	12	9
1970	4	0
1971	10	5
1972	6	4
1973	12	6
1974	17	18
1975	13	10
1976	12	5
1977	5	-1
1978	13	7
1979	12	8
1980	4	6
1981	8	4
1982	2	4
1983	4	4
1984	13	8
1985	-5	-9
1986	5	8
1987	19	15
1988	15	9
1989	8	7
1990	21	17
1991	13	14
1992	22	19
1993	16	14
1994	6	2
1995	11	12
1996	7	0
1997	15	12
1998	20	18
1999	12	12
2000	11	1
2001	11	12
2002	11	13
2003	8	10
2004	12	11
2005	10	11
2006	14	16
2007	17	15
2008	13	15
2009	9	11
2010	10	15
2011	13	16
2012	16	19
2013	18	18
2014	5	7
2015	7	7
2016	14	15
2017	14	9
2018	8	4
2019	19	17
2020	17	20
2021	20	20
2022	9	10
2023	24	23

[RFun]

4 hours ago, Allen said:

From Noaa.  Don't fire the messenger

Min Temps F	Charlotte	Raleigh
1950	11	13
1951	12	10
1952	16	15
1953	11	13
1954	15	13
1955	11	13
1956	19	21
1957	10	10
1958	5	7
1959	10	10
1960	10	11
1961	8	7
1962	2	4
1963	7	7
1964	12	9
1965	13	8
1966	4	3
1967	7	8
1968	14	8
1969	12	9
1970	4	0
1971	10	5
1972	6	4
1973	12	6
1974	17	18
1975	13	10
1976	12	5
1977	5	-1
1978	13	7
1979	12	8
1980	4	6
1981	8	4
1982	2	4
1983	4	4
1984	13	8
1985	-5	-9
1986	5	8
1987	19	15
1988	15	9
1989	8	7
1990	21	17
1991	13	14
1992	22	19
1993	16	14
1994	6	2
1995	11	12
1996	7	0
1997	15	12
1998	20	18
1999	12	12
2000	11	1
2001	11	12
2002	11	13
2003	8	10
2004	12	11
2005	10	11
2006	14	16
2007	17	15
2008	13	15
2009	9	11
2010	10	15
2011	13	16
2012	16	19
2013	18	18
2014	5	7
2015	7	7
2016	14	15
2017	14	9
2018	8	4
2019	19	17
2020	17	20
2021	20	20
2022	9	10
2023	24	23

That looks pretty accurate to me.  The only time where I would want the Trachys to have some protection would be for the cold snap of 1985 where Raleigh saw -9 (or more like -6 or -5 or so in a protected area).  And that's only really for the unprotected areas.  That's pretty darn good considering we're talking 72 years.  Factor in the cold not sticking around and you have yourself a low risk area for Trachys and an area that can weed out any naturally weak palms.  So, not surprising to see them in this area or areas that are colder.  I know that there are some Trachy growers in the elevated areas of Western North Carolina.

Edited November 4, 2023 by RFun

[Allen]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

That looks pretty accurate to me.  The only time where I would want the Trachys to have some protection would be for the cold snap of 1985 where Raleigh saw -9 (or more like -6 or -5 or so in a protected area).  And that's only really for the unprotected areas.  That's pretty darn good considering we're talking 72 years.  Factor in the cold not sticking around and you have yourself a low risk area for Trachys and an area that can weed out any naturally weak palms.  So, not surprising to see them in this area or areas that are colder.  I know that there are some Trachy growers in the elevated areas of Western North Carolina.

Can you post a thread with photos of your palms.  You are in a good area to have lots of palms.

[Aceraceae]

Trachycarpus is 100% zone 8 or higher especially in damp climates. They do great in oceanic climates because that is almost exactly equivalent to the interior subtropical highlands they come from (both are Koppen Cfb climate). Record lows are 1 to 2 zones colder than mean minimums and 3 to 4 zones colder than average lows in most areas, especially in continental climates like almost all of the US. Especially recently hardiness zone and exceptional lows are more often confounded, and people act shocked when a cold event goes below the mean minimum (oh no we just had zone 6 cold in zone 7!). The desert climate makes this even more confusing, with zone 9 Washingtonia being purported as "zone 7, zone 6, or even zone FIVE," because of anecdotal sub zero tolerance due to very brief extreme overnight lows below 0 F (-25 C), between warm sunny days. The northern Scottish isles (Shetland) are zone 9 with cold summers and could hardly support a windmill palm. 

[jackwilliam1]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:36 AM, Allen said:

True again except in our area I don't think any of the S. palmetto or hybrids could necessarily live long term (Decades or centuries) without protection because the chance for a -5F to -25F event is still there.  So the question is if you grow your brazoria for 20 years and you show a -10F in the forecast are you going to protect it?

Protecting your plants during extreme cold events is crucial for their long-term survival. If a -10F forecast is expected after 20 years of growth, it's advisable to take measures to protect your Brazoria plants to ensure their continued health and longevity.

[RFun]

2 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

Trachycarpus is 100% zone 8 or higher especially in damp climates. They do great in oceanic climates because that is almost exactly equivalent to the interior subtropical highlands they come from (both are Koppen Cfb climate). Record lows are 1 to 2 zones colder than mean minimums and 3 to 4 zones colder than average lows in most areas, especially in continental climates like almost all of the US. Especially recently hardiness zone and exceptional lows are more often confounded, and people act shocked when a cold event goes below the mean minimum (oh no we just had zone 6 cold in zone 7!). The desert climate makes this even more confusing, with zone 9 Washingtonia being purported as "zone 7, zone 6, or even zone FIVE," because of anecdotal sub zero tolerance due to very brief extreme overnight lows below 0 F (-25 C), between warm sunny days. The northern Scottish isles (Shetland) are zone 9 with cold summers and could hardly support a windmill palm. 

I completely disagree.  That is not what I have observed over the years.  It's more about length of cold than what you are saying.  Also, consider microclimates and some simple ways of adding protection, if it is needed (i.e., burlap).  If what you're saying is true, we would not be seeing palms in the very same areas you are talking about for many years now.

Look no further than Gary's Nursery Windmill palm that made it through -4F with not even spear pull.  There were palms that made it through even colder.  Yes, some palms are not going to be as hardy.  Those palms will be weeded out.  You can't make assumptions because you planted a few Windmills and they didn't make it through a bit of a cold snap.  You only learn after you've planted many palms over the years and have made your own observations based on different types of Windmill palms that are sourced from various areas.  Assume nothing based on what a few Windmills did in one given area.

Edited November 6, 2023 by RFun

[jwitt]

23 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

The desert climate makes this even more confusing, with zone 9 Washingtonia being purported as "zone 7, zone 6, or even zone FIVE," because of anecdotal sub zero tolerance due to very brief extreme overnight lows below 0 F (-25 C), between warm sunny days. 

We like very brief extreme events.  Especially when they happen 3 times in a year.  That's where the "magic" comes from!

 

[RFun]

21 hours ago, jwitt said:

We like very brief extreme events.  Especially when they happen 3 times in a year.  That's where the "magic" comes from!

 

Your state has some hardy beasts for palms.  Las Cruces is an area where palms are known to be tough as nails.  People often think the Southwest has the dry cold, but really, that's also the Southeast.  When the really cold weather gets to the Southeast, it is quite dry. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

On 11/5/2023 at 11:48 PM, RFun said:

I completely disagree.  That is not what I have observed over the years.  It's more about length of cold than what you are saying.  Also, consider microclimates and some simple ways of adding protection, if it is needed (i.e., burlap).  If what you're saying is true, we would not be seeing palms in the very same areas you are talking about for many years now.

Look no further than Gary's Nursery Windmill palm that made it through -4F with not even spear pull.  There were palms that made it through even colder.  Yes, some palms are not going to be as hardy.  Those palms will be weeded out.  You can't make assumptions because you planted a few Windmills and they didn't make it through a bit of a cold snap.  You only learn after you've planted many palms over the years and have made your own observations based on different types of Windmill palms that are sourced from various areas.  Assume nothing based on what a few Windmills did in one given area.

I'll have to ask Gary about that one. 

I can tell you, in ATL if it goes below 20°F overnight,  there's a 60+% chance it won't rise above freezing. When we hit single digits we typically have about 60 hours below freezing. In fact, when we get freezing rain, we'll see 36 to 48 hours below freezing, between 28° and 32°.

[RFun]

4 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'll have to ask Gary about that one. 

I can tell you, in ATL if it goes below 20°F overnight,  there's a 60+% chance it won't rise above freezing. When we hit single digits we typically have about 60 hours below freezing. In fact, when we get freezing rain, we'll see 36 to 48 hours below freezing, between 28° and 32°.

That really isn't too bad.  28-32 is not the same as 10 or 0 or subzero.  The 2021 Texas Freeze saw Austin with 5 days below freezing.  That was too much for a lot of the palms, but some still made it.  So we know Austin has some very tough palms that are left over.

[RFun]

10 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'll have to ask Gary about that one. 

I can tell you, in ATL if it goes below 20°F overnight,  there's a 60+% chance it won't rise above freezing. When we hit single digits we typically have about 60 hours below freezing. In fact, when we get freezing rain, we'll see 36 to 48 hours below freezing, between 28° and 32°.

Here's the link on what a few of his palms showed at that time:

http://www.garysnursery.com/89ChristmasFreeze.html

[RFun]

22 hours ago, jwitt said:

We like very brief extreme events.  Especially when they happen 3 times in a year.  That's where the "magic" comes from!

 

A weather station in Las Cruces recorded -9.4F on 2-3-2011.  There were a lot of palms in that area that survived.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

A weather station in Las Cruces recorded -9.4F on 2-3-2011.  There were a lot of palms in that area that survived.

Officially it was -5f mere blocks from these Las Cruces survivors.

[RFun]

16 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Officially it was -5f mere blocks from these Las Cruces survivors.

I know the guy from New Mexico State University said he had seen the Filiferas pull through -11F and had heard stories of them being able to survive even colder.  I know Las Cruces has definitely seen -10F before.  So, it's pretty safe to say there are teflon Washingtonia Filiferas that are around.  Anyway, more food for thought.

Edited November 8, 2023 by RFun

[jwitt]

9 hours ago, RFun said:

I know the guy from New Mexico State University said he had seen the Filiferas pull through -11F and had heard stories of them being able to survive even colder.  I know Las Cruces has definitely seen -10F before.  So, it's pretty safe to say there are teflon Washingtonia Filiferas that are around.  Anyway, more food for thought.

-11f happened in 2 places in NM with documented Washingtonia survivors. One is a warm 6b. 

Both places are over 200 miles from Las Cruces. 

I documented it. 

And yes colder, but will they believe?

1962 Las Cruces saw -10f. There all time record.  Also a much different place then. 

I doubt any 1962 palms exist in Las Cruces presently. Maybe.  

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by jwitt

[RFun]

On 11/8/2023 at 8:02 AM, jwitt said:

-11f happened in 2 places in NM with documented Washingtonia survivors. One is a warm 6b. 

Both places are over 200 miles from Las Cruces. 

I documented it. 

And yes colder, but will they believe?

1962 Las Cruces saw -10f. There all time record.  Also a much different place then. 

I doubt any 1962 palms exist in Las Cruces presently. Maybe.  

 

 

It wasn't as populated back then, of course.  More of a man-made built up environment now.  Anything is possible, but I wouldn't assume those temps are going to happen again (at least anytime soon).

Lots of people just can't get through their heads that some palms have some superior genetics for hardiness.  It's best not to try to convince them.

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, RFun said:

It wasn't as populated back then, of course.  More of a man-made built up environment now.  Anything is possible, but I wouldn't assume those temps are going to happen again (at least anytime soon).

Lots of people just can't get through their heads that some palms have some superior genetics for hardiness.  It's best not to try to convince them.

El Paso saw -8f in 1962.  Several CIDP, DACT, filifera survived and continue today. 

Both places were much smaller in those days. 

[L.A.M.]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:06 PM, Allen said:

True again except in our area I don't think any of the S. palmetto or hybrids could necessarily live long term (Decades or centuries) without protection because the chance for a -5F to -25F event is still there.  So the question is if you grow your brazoria for 20 years and you show a -10F in the forecast are you going to protect it?

That's a fair point. I'd say that's more of an issue in the colder parts of Middle Tennessee like Cookeville or Crossville than the major cities (Nashville, Clarksville and Murfreesboro), southerly areas like Fayetteville or areas right by and downwind of a major reservoir (Barkley, Center Hill or Kentucky). A bad cold snap like that is more likely to happen in the Appalachia than in the Basin, near the Alabama border or along the northeast shore of a major lake. I plan on being careful what microclimate I plant my Sabal brazoriensis in when I get them; I'm lucky enough to have land right on the edge where the Highland Rim drops off into the Nashville Basin. I'll probably plant them in the Basin on a shady south-facing slope and at least a few feet above the actual floodplain, given that they're neither clustering palms like Rhapidophyllum nor underground like Sabal minor. Like with eastern white pine (probably also American larch and red spruce based on what I've heard about ones in the Lower Midwest, although I haven't tried them yet) but for the opposite reason; they can survive in the climate, but I need to be careful about siting to ensure they have enough water during the hot summers (which likely wouldn't even be possible if not for Tennessee's very rainy climate). If it gets to -10 F at my house on the Highland Rim, it won't necessarily get quite that cold in the Nashville Basin hundreds of feet below me (and if the sandy hilltop dries out, the clay valley may still have plenty of water). Remember, Donelson and Fayetteville went decades without reaching zero until December 2022 and barely did even then, and even Carthage didn't quite reach zero for nearly a decade prior to 2022 and barely went below in January 2014 even when Fall Creek Falls reached -8 F and Crossville -9 F. Given that my dwarf palmetto was far from being killed and needle palm survived December 2022 fully unscathed in bad microclimates in an already-cooler part of the state, I'm cautiously optimistic that at least a hybrid (Birmingham or brazoriensis) could handle at least a shaded south-facing slope in the basin and above the actual floodplain and would probably do even better in areas more solidly within the basin (including Murfreesboro and most of Nashville).

Of course, freak cold events do happen. Warsaw, MO has a remarkably similar climate to mine temperature-wise but a record low of a shocking -40 (F or C; they're the same at -40). At that point, even American hollies and river canes could be in big trouble, as could Christmas ferns; eastern white pines and many deciduous trees would be lucky not to take at least light damage too. Nonetheless, the chances of that happening in or near the Sun Belt below high mountains are probably extremely rare. I'd say it'll be decades before the Nashville Basin has to worry about another -10 F like it got in the 1980s. Even Murfreesboro only reached -9 F even in December 1989. Nothing lives forever, though; seeds exist to pass on the parent's genetics. They could be insulated by snow and germinate after a single freak winter happening once every few decades, centuries or millennia. Of course, though, I'll still plan for that kind of event by keeping a few babies of everything indoors each winter (but rotating so they don't de-acclimate) and growing new seeds or cuttings every year. Just because we technically could get to -40 or 120 F like Warsaw, MO did doesn't mean we will get even close anytime in my lifetime; I think it's best to be prepared just in case, plant within your zone and site well for marginally suitable native plants but don't get deterred by the truly extraordinary.

Edited November 21, 2023 by L.A.M.

[Palmerr]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:48 PM, WSimpson said:

I planted this one at Mi Pueblo Mexican Restaurant ( Mi Alpo ; the food is good but I have funny names for a lot of restaurants and businesses lol )  in Winston-Salem when it was a tiny 3 gallon plant . It seems to be really hardy and looks less damaged than my Trachys . 

Will

 

Thats actually not that far from me I'm in Grayson County VA (Mouth of Wilson) My school does trips over there all the time to get food and stuff.

[Palmerr]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:51 PM, RFun said:

It could be that the wind was bad there in Nashville.  I don't have the information on how bad the wind was, but typically, when it gets that cold, the winds are quite calm.  I know most of the areas affected by that cold snap (the Southeast) had calm to light winds that night/morning.  If you're worried about winds, it's quite easy to find sheltered spots.  Length of cold snaps is going to be the most important factor, from my experience.

There are maybe 70 to 90 year-old southern mags still pushing through in Huntington WV (Zone 7a) and 7b microclimates cause of river) you can find them everywhere especially along the river near ritter park area you can find a lot in the home areas that are absolutely huge! I'd say possibly 100 years old since the whole area used to be a landfill, but they turned it into a park and a nice little neighborhood (110 years ago) with large oak trees and laurel oaks too)) the Huntington area has experienced -5F in 2022 real cold no damage at all Those southern mags are tough real tough (Lowest temp recorded since 1910 (At least) -21F 1994! Southern Mags are Zone 7 hardy all the way not like a few decades then done. They hit -3F and there is one next to my aunt's house that I visit so I will update on its health. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]