United Kingdom vs Holland vs Central Texas Mega Thread

[RJ]

🍿 My palm is bigger than your palm 🍿

[Foxpalms]

4 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Yeah I agree with the idea that your closest comparison to London in the US is coastal Oregon or Seattle, Washington.  Much closer to your oceanic climate and Seattle actually has a lot of palms.  Victoria and Vancouver Canada have a lot of palm trees also.

Seattle is similar but slightly colder evey month of the year. We have wet winters and drier summers like Seattle however we are a lot drier overall. In terms of what plants can grow brookings Oregon is probably the most similar, since they can grow Washingtonia, archontophoenix, syagrus, citrus limon like here ect.

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, fr8train said:

I tried talking my wife into moving down there, but she likes Hill Country more 😕

Smart woman!

[NBTX11]

8 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

Seattle is similar but slightly colder evey month of the year. We have wet winters and drier summers like Seattle however we are a lot drier overall. In terms of what plants can grow brookings Oregon is probably the most similar, since they can grow Washingtonia, archontophoenix, syagrus, citrus limon like here ect.

Brookings has huge ancient Canary Island Dates.

[Xenon]

3 hours ago, fr8train said:

I tried talking my wife into moving down there, but she likes Hill Country more 😕

7 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Smart woman!

McAllen/Mission area isn't so bad. You will need to speak Spanish or learn quickly though 

[Foxpalms]

8 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Brookings has huge ancient Canary Island Dates.

I know they have older CIDP however the one banana belt posted of the largest one in brookings was smaller than the largest CIDP in London, despite being older. The oldest one in Brookings was planted in either the 40s or 50s compared to the 80s here.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Foxpalms

[jwitt]

4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

McAllen/Mission area isn't so bad. You will need to speak Spanish or learn quickly though 

Your telling that to a New Mexican who literally grew up one house away from the Rio Grande.  Over 500+ years of Spanish spoken here with dialects no where else outside of certain regions of Spain.

As someone who has a bit of an interest in plants, the hill country rocks. Lot of things "meet" there. 

Plus it's got some terrain.

And smart women.

The valley has some pluses too!

 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is a 2022 YT post on the cold hardy palms in Kew gardens London. You will see some CIDP’s and washingtonias planted in the open, no busy London streets or houses nearby. 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is the location of Kew in London, it’s a green space.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is the same CIDP now, the washingtonias have already been removed. The chamaerops are ofcourse still perfect.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This is a washingtonia in the open at RHS Wisley in february 2021, a mild winter in the UK, frostfree in central London i understood from Foxpalms.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

RHS Wisley is located here, again a green space on the edge of London

[Axel Amsterdam]

I think it’s fair to say that all the larger inland washingtonias and CIDP’s are confined to UHI areas in London. If you have recent pictures of larger specimens in open spaces/greener rural areas around London please show them including the location. I believe it’s really only UHI and proximity to houses/buildings as the pictures above show. 
That doesn’t mean i don’t enjoy them, i love them. It’s just the UK/London climate talk that is wrong imo. Inland it’s all about stoney microclimates. The moment the space is greener and more open the CIDP’s and washingtonias disappear. If you really want to compare, that’s a difference with central Texas I believe.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Foxpalms]

There are these as well.

[Axel Amsterdam]

12 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

There are these as well.

I am sorry, yours are located in a park in the warmest area in central London. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

27 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

There are these as well.

 

And your picture is 7 years old

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Foxpalms]

6 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

And your picture is 7 years old

I think UK palms posted more updated photos somewhere.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This on the other hand is an impressive example of a very filiferish washingtonia on the edge of London that has survived every winter since 2009. It’s not planted in the open but even close to houses the location itself is impressively far from the UHI of the city center. That’s not proof it can be done everywhere in inland UK, it’s just to show that i am aware where the edges of the London possibilities are without climate data. 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

2009 to 2010 winters there were cold enough to kill the CIDP next to it, but the filifera kept going

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Axel Amsterdam]

50 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I think UK palms posted more updated photos somewhere.

I know, but if your post is meant as a reply to my request for proof it’s not relevant as it is located in the nearly frost free city center. I am talking about open green spaces on the edges of London because i want proof that it’s not only bricks and UHI that make it possible. 

UHI in central London is so strong even city parks like Battersea and St James stay mild during frosts. 

To give an example i am sure you are familiar with: I arrived by car (on the ferry) in the coastal town of Dover during a wintermorning. It was 0C in Dover. When i arrived in the outskirts of London it was 2C and in central London 6C. That UHI. 

[UK_Palms]

@Axel Amsterdam Still posting UK photos I see. How about actually posting some photos from Holland? Don’t go posting stuff that gets wrapped up with cloths & shelters every winter either, or recent transplants. None of the palms I have posted get any protection here, or ever have done in their lives.

Here’s the Wisley one during the February freeze 2 months ago. Bigger washies are units. It wouldn’t have got cold enough to do that one in at that size. It maybe saw -8C / 17F on one night. It’ll work on replenishing its crown this spring/summer.

 

@Foxpalms Those are old photos of the Battersea Park Filifera’s. They are way bigger now. They had botched transplants when they went in many years ago and leant to their sides. These are my photos from July 2021. I bet they look better now, despite the crap winter we just had…

As for back yard lurkers in London…

 

The big one in Chingford, north west London, got cut down over the summer. It isn’t there anymore. I could post a long list of chainsawed CIDP and Washingtonia from the capital. Loads have been cut down as they grow too big, too quickly. Thankfully there are plenty of others out there still. These London washies haven’t been posted in here yet, but have been seen before. These are just some of the medium height ones lol.

 

When updates come later this summer, you better be ready. A lot of these photos I have been posting are nearly 2 years old now. The growth on London washies is quicker than most of Texas, so these will be catching up big time pretty soon. The CIDP are going to be nuts, not that they aren’t already.

I am monitoring the south coast Washies as well obviously. Even the Robustas that are a few miles inland were untouched by this winter just gone, despite it being the coldest in 12/13 years.

[Axel Amsterdam]

33 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@Axel Amsterdam Still posting UK photos I see. How about actually posting some photos from Holland? Don’t go posting stuff that gets wrapped up with cloths & shelters every winter either, or recent transplants. None of the palms I have posted get any protection here, or ever have done in their lifes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ben, still responding with personal attacks on some factual observations regarding UK palm growing i see. 

Inland UK, where you live BTW, is too cold (just like Holland) for long term washingtonias and CIDP’s. That’s my point and you have to live with it. 

This is what a washingtonia without protection in inland UK looks like now: 

[Foxpalms]

There's this one that's been there since 2008. The area it's in hardly has much of the urban heat island effect. The thing is it's pretty obvious a CDIP isn't going to be planted in a field in the middle of nowhere on farm land.

[Axel Amsterdam]

18 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

There's this one that's been there since 2008. The area it's in hardly has much of the urban heat island effect. The thing is it's pretty obvious a CDIP isn't going to be planted in a field in the middle of nowhere on farm land.

I am not referring to farmland, i am referring to green or rural areas with less streets and buildings outside London.

They cant even stay green in a field in Kew London (while nearby there are large ones in close proximity to houses) let alone in farmland outside London.

But always open to evidence, can you show the CIDP on the map of London?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@Axel Amsterdam

 

@Foxpalms

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The growth on London washies is quicker than most of Texas, so these will be catching up big time pretty soon. 

 

Curious what minor parts of Texas could possibly have higher washy growth rates than London? Please enlighten us here for the lessons.

[Little Tex]

31 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

a CDIP isn't going to be planted in a field in the middle of nowhere on farm land.

They are in central texas just saying...

[Little Tex]

20 minutes ago, jwitt said:

 The growth on London washies is quicker than most of Texas, so these will be catching up big time pretty soon. 

 

yeah show me a pure robusta quicker then this in london

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Little Tex]

Literally a volunteer

[Quasarecho]

This is so stupid - I love it!

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Ben, still responding with personal attacks on some factual observations regarding UK palm growing i see. 

Inland UK, where you live BTW, is too cold (just like Holland) for long term washingtonias and CIDP’s. That’s my point and you have to live with it. 

This is what a washingtonia without protection in inland UK looks like now: 

What are you going on about!? Factual observations? We already know that London and the south coast is just built differently & several growing zones above inland, rural areas like where I am. That is already obvious, hence why I have been saying for some time that I plan to move away to the south coast. I am living in a frost hollow here between two valleys. I get clobbered during freeze events like what we experienced last winter just gone.

The coldest winter in 13 years was always going to cause major problems for my small Washingtonia, which is in waterlogged clay soil, 35 miles inland from the coast with no UHI. If it was a lot bigger, it would have been a different story. It would have took damage still, but not like that. Using tiny specimens, like mine, as examples of palms defoliating or dying during a once in 10-15 year freeze is just ridiculous. Your point is redundant too because southern England is still loaded with CIDP and Washingtonia either way. Just not further inland obviously.

@jwitt @Little Tex I am at work currently so limited as to what I can do right now. When I am back in a few hours a I will post up some Washingtonia growth rate comparisons for London and the south coast. I see you are using locations in Houston as an example and I am pretty sure some of the London and south coast Washies match the growth rates there at least. The CIDP growth rates however probably beat out Houston. Watch this space.

Edited March 29, 2023 by UK_Palms

[MarcusH]

10 hours ago, jwitt said:

Your telling that to a New Mexican who literally grew up one house away from the Rio Grande.  Over 500+ years of Spanish spoken here with dialects no where else outside of certain regions of Spain.

As someone who has a bit of an interest in plants, the hill country rocks. Lot of things "meet" there. 

Plus it's got some terrain.

And smart women.

The valley has some pluses too!

 

 

Then come on down here. The Hill Country is one of my favorite place to go besides Corpus Christi and its close by beaches.  The HC has some amazing scenic routes especially towards Leakey from Bandera but it certainly doesn't stop there . The area is huge between SA and Austin.  The HC is always a few degrees colder so keep that in mind when you plant Washies. 

[Foxpalms]

35 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

They are in central texas just saying...

I know but I wasn't trying to compare Washingtonia in London to Texas that was someone else, people here keep mixing up what I have said with someone else. I compared the freezes. Also there are Washingtonia and CIDP growing away from the coast or the urban heat island in some milder parts of the UK, however according to axel the ones in Cornwall don't count because it's "mild". 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

56 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I am not referring to farmland, i am referring to green or rural areas with less streets and buildings outside London.

They cant even stay green in a field in Kew London (while nearby there are large ones in close proximity to houses) let alone in farmland outside London.

But always open to evidence, can you show the CIDP on the map of London?

 

[Samuel]

This is mine in St Albans which is outside of London it has some frost burn but it’s alive and well 

[MarcusH]

25 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Literally a volunteer

The UK is never going to reach the numbers of palms per square mile like you see over here that's not an opinion that's a fact even the landmass of TX is 3x larger . Comparing the same latitude and climate is nonsense  . The US climate is very different from the UKs due to landmass and other geographical differences.  I can take a walk outside and in less than 10 minutes I can count at least 10 washies and that's here on the NE side of San Antonio.  Houston, CC and RGV have a lot more palm density compared to SA . I'm on my way downtown maybe I'll take a few pics. 

[Axel Amsterdam]

27 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I know but I wasn't trying to compare Washingtonia in London to Texas that was someone else

?

I thought this debate was all about that? 

It’s easy:

-Washies and CIDP’s burn severly every couple of years in green areas in London which are located outside of the UHI

-So outside of London in inland UK they do even worse because these areas are colder than the greater London area. There are no known pictures of large survivors so far.

-Texas has washingtonias outside the UHI’s and also in large open spaces.

 

[Foxpalms]

11 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

?

I thought this debate was all about that? 

It’s easy:

-Washies and CIDP’s burn severly every couple of years in green areas in London which are located outside of the UHI

-So outside of London in inland UK they do even worse because these areas are colder than the greater London area. There are no known pictures of large survivors so far.

-Texas has washingtonias outside the UHI’s and also in large open spaces.

 

The other week the debate was about you saying that CIDPS and Washingtonia won't grow outside of London and the coast. Which I disagree with because they can grow in other inland locations inside a town of cities urban heat island and inland in Cornwall and on the isle of wight with no urban heat island. The main purpose of the thread was so that instead of you, or whoever starting these debates, which sometimes someone turns into an argument, that it doesn't hog other people's threads.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Foxpalms

[NBTX11]

27 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

The UK is never going to reach the numbers of palms per square mile like you see over here that's not an opinion that's a fact even the landmass of TX is 3x larger . Comparing the same latitude and climate is nonsense  . The US climate is very different from the UKs due to landmass and other geographical differences.  I can take a walk outside and in less than 10 minutes I can count at least 10 washies and that's here on the NE side of San Antonio.  Houston, CC and RGV have a lot more palm density compared to SA . I'm on my way downtown maybe I'll take a few pics. 

I can walk outside of my front door in New Braunfels and within 1-2 minutes see at least 15-20 large mature palms. Those include hybrid Washingtonia, Sabal palmetto, Sabal Mexicana and Phoenix Canariensis. All large (over 20 feet and in the case of Washingtonia over 40 feet)

[Axel Amsterdam]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

There's this one that's been there since 2008. The area it's in hardly has much of the urban heat island effect. The thing is it's pretty obvious a CDIP isn't going to be planted in a field in the middle of nowhere on farm land.

Let’s stick to the topic Foxpalms. You posted a nice example of a long term CIDP outside greater London, appreciated. I wasn’t there during the winters but at least in the past it seems to have been protected by the owners. Why do i say that? Look at the green fronds of the CIDP in august 2012 and look at the fronds of the butia across the street at the same time.

[MarcusH]

20 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

I can walk outside of my front door in New Braunfels and within 1-2 minutes see at least 15-20 large mature palms. Those include hybrid Washingtonia, Sabal palmetto, Sabal Mexicana and Phoenix Canariensis. All large (over 20 feet and in the case of Washingtonia over 40 feet)

The NE side of SA in the area of Windcrest,  Universal City, Live Oak etc isn't really rich in palms like you would see in downtown.  At least not many skyduster most of the palms are still small 5 to 10 ft with some old filiferas in between . Lots of businesses plant sabals you only get to see those when you're close by due to its small height. I have noticed NB has a lot of palms and beautiful ones.  The city is definitely more palm friendly.