Lantania loddigesii

[Looking Glass]

What do you guys in the know, think of these young Lantania loddigesii?   Unlike Copernicia, these gain their blue with age?   Is that right?   Any thoughts on picking winners?   Any advice on growing these.  Post your inspirational pics.   An underutilized palm around here.   Kind of like a smaller, wind tolerant Bismarck as adults. 

 Not sure I could confidently identify a red vs blue at this age.   

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Looking Glass
Spelling

[kinzyjr]

@Looking Glass I'm not good at identifying them at that age.  In regard to care, they seem to be pretty care-free as they grow at the interchange of US-301 and I-75 near Ellenton and there are a bunch on off of Thornhill Rd near Winter Haven.

[Tyrone]

They don't like being cold and wet so in that situation they are more touchy than Bismarckia. Where they grow in the wild it is full of rich young volcanic soil, and they even grow on and near lava flows of hard rock, where drainage would be very good.

I grew quite a few red Latans up in Perth and if the soil broke down too much they rotted in the Perth winters. 

[Looking Glass]

8 hours ago, Tyrone said:

They don't like being cold and wet so in that situation they are more touchy than Bismarckia. Where they grow in the wild it is full of rich young volcanic soil, and they even grow on and near lava flows of hard rock, where drainage would be very good.

I grew quite a few red Latans up in Perth and if the soil broke down too much they rotted in the Perth winters. 

Bismarkia are very popular here.  They grow very fast, and very big and don’t even need supplemental irrigation during the dry season here.   But they get too big and my place.  My yard is flanked by two 60-70 footers in the neighbors yards.  I worry about these during our next big hurricane.   

There are a few Loddigesii tucked away in various places around town.   They appear to be totally neglected, in bad soils, many unirrigated…..   and they look great and are thriving also.   A much better size and speed for my place.   They are said to have better hurricane tolerance than Bismarks also.   They are starting to be used as street/beach plantings by the city/county.   

Their native areas appear harsh, open sun, with a rough dry season.  and maybe 40” of rain a year.  No cold spells.   A good match for here.  (Stolen internet pics)…..

The type of palm the survives drought and poor soils, and really looks great with some care and TLC.  Prettier in cultivation.  Almost like many of the Cuban palms do….. 

Also the kind I might kill with kindness, while a neglectful non-palm person would grow it well.  

[aabell]

2 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

Bismarkia are very popular here.  They grow very fast, and very big and don’t even need supplemental irrigation during the dry season here.   But they get too big and my place.  My yard is flanked by two 60-70 footers in the neighbors yards.  I worry about these during our next big hurricane.   

There are a few Loddigesii tucked away in various places around town.   They appear to be totally neglected, in bad soils, many unirrigated…..   and they look great and are thriving also.   A much better size and speed for my place.   They are said to have better hurricane tolerance than Bismarks also.   They are starting to be used as street/beach plantings by the city/county.   

 

Bismarckia fared very poorly here in Fort Myers during Ian, their leaves were all shredded and many lost their tops completely. 

Latania, including a few very tall older specimens all look flawless, not even minor leaf damage.

[aztropic]

13 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

What do you guys in the know, think of these young Lantania loddigesii?   Unlike Copernicia, these gain their blue with age?   Is that right?   Any thoughts on picking winners?   Any advice on growing these.  Post your inspirational pics.   An underutilized palm around here.   Kind of like a smaller, wind tolerant Bismarck as adults. 

 Not sure I could confidently identify a red vs blue at this age.   

 

I've grown ALL 3 colors from seed. It's my opinion that those are of the red variety. The more common blue ones have blue fronds from the start like bismarcks. No worries though,as after they grow a foot of mature trunk,they all look very similar.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Looking Glass]

48 minutes ago, aztropic said:

I've grown ALL 3 colors from seed. It's my opinion that those are of the red variety. The more common blue ones have blue fronds from the start like bismarcks. No worries though,as after they grow a foot of mature trunk,they all look very similar.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

I was afraid these were the reds.  They are hard to tell early on for me.  
They are being sold by someone who thinks they are the blues, but they aren’t a palm specialist.   I’ve seen picks of baby reds, that are very, very red.    And baby blues that are a little red.   

The seeds are easy to tell apart, but they are well beyond that.   

I was hoping you guys with experience growing these at an early age would weigh in.   

Baby Bismarks pop up all over my yard by the dozens and are dark frosted purple as seedlings.   They are very hard to yank out.  

I will proceed cautiously.  I’m still not sure.  I was hoping for Loddigesii though.  

I thought that these Lantania all start out with some red, before differentiating to more blue, red and yellow, depending.  From my limited reading, I thought it was more confusing than say, Copernicia, that show their blue immediately.  

Edited March 30, 2023 by Looking Glass

[RedRabbit]

14 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@Looking Glass I'm not good at identifying them at that age.  In regard to care, they seem to be pretty care-free as they grow at the interchange of US-301 and I-75 near Ellenton and there are a bunch on off of Thornhill Rd near Winter Haven.

Wow, Winter Haven? Maybe they’re more cold tolerant than I thought. Not that Winter Haven is particularly cold, but I thought these were at least warmer 10a palms. 

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, aabell said:

Bismarckia fared very poorly here in Fort Myers during Ian, their leaves were all shredded and many lost their tops completely. 

Latania, including a few very tall older specimens all look flawless, not even minor leaf damage.

My experience, too. I lost 4 of 6 Bismarckia and the two survivors took a battering to the point I’m not sure they will survive long term. And when an adult Bismarckia falls, all nearby vegetation goes down with it. No more Bizzies for me. My blue and red Latania survived Ian with little or no damage. Blue Latania grow faster and larger than red and are the most common species of the 3 Latania. They are blue from the start while red Latania lose much of their red and become matte green.

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

My experience, too. I lost 4 of 6 Bismarckia and the two survivors took a battering to the point I’m not sure they will survive long term. And when an adult Bismarckia falls, all nearby vegetation goes down with it. No more Bizzies for me. My blue and red Latania survived Ian with little or no damage. Blue Latania grow faster and larger than red and are the most common species of the 3 Latania. They are blue from the start while red Latania lose much of their red and become matte green.

Do those above also look like Reds to you then?   

[PalmatierMeg]

They do - very green. But I'm not an expert. I've heard that blue and red Latans can hybridize. I'm hoping to find out eventually. My red is male and blue is female and they are side by side. It's a matter of their flowering in sync.

[D. Morrowii]

I have 2 of these punk rock palmettos in pots that are supposed to be a red and a blue. They do look a little different from each other. The supposed blue is a pale green with purple/red on the leaf borders and petioles. The supposed red is much brighter green with bright red borders and petioles. What @PalmatierMegand @aztropicare saying makes me think perhaps one or both are Red or probably hybrids. 
Just for fun and reference here is an L. loddegesii at Kopsick.

and a mini bismarck -  L. ? at Crane Point Hammock in the keys.

And a probable L lonteroides at Crane Point Hammock. 

I think that loddegesii may be a more attractive palm when mature but then again if they all look the same then who knows? I wonder do Red latans have the foam like white leaf bases when mature? I’ll get pics of my juvis once I get home. 

[kinzyjr]

5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Wow, Winter Haven? Maybe they’re more cold tolerant than I thought. Not that Winter Haven is particularly cold, but I thought these were at least warmer 10a palms. 

They were shared by @SWFLchris on the Remarkable Palms of Tampa Bay Thread (page 5):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/61172-remarkable-palms-of-tampa-bay/?do=findComment&comment=913896

There are some people who push the envelope over that way and into Eagle Lake.

[D. Morrowii]

Probably of no help but this one was sold to me at a palm sale as Latania loddegesii. 

 

This one from a previous sale as lonteroides. 

 

They're pretty nice either way I guess. 

[Looking Glass]

2 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

Probably of no help but this one was sold to me at a palm sale as Latania loddegesii. 

 

This one from a previous sale as lonteroides. 

 

They're pretty nice either way I guess. 

1) Both of those palms look like the ones I’m looking at.  
2) I cannot tell the difference between those two palms.  

Jesus, this is going to be harder than I thought.  

Those are both nice looking palms though, either way.  

[D. Morrowii]

24 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

1) Both of those palms look like the ones I’m looking at.  
2) I cannot tell the difference between those two palms.  

Jesus, this is going to be harder than I thought.  

Those are both nice looking palms though, either way.  

Welp, I thought Jeff had some loddegesii seedlings on his price list but he must have sold out. I was hoping to get a few on my next order so I could have a known specimen but thats out now. Good luck on your quest!

[Looking Glass]

21 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

Welp, I thought Jeff had some loddegesii seedlings on his price list but he must have sold out. I was hoping to get a few on my next order so I could have a known specimen but thats out now. Good luck on your quest!

He did.  They did.   I was eyeballing those too.   Boo hoo..  now we will never know…

Here’s an internet shot of some other Lantania loddigesii from another nursery down this way….

Again…. WTF.   Not easy.  

Edited March 31, 2023 by Looking Glass

[bubba]

[aztropic]

1 hour ago, Looking Glass said:

He did.  They did.   I was eyeballing those too.   Boo hoo..  now we will never know…

Here’s an internet shot of some other Lantania loddigesii from another nursery down this way….

Again…. WTF.   Not easy.  

Yes. That one is definitely blue.

In case anyone was curious about the yellow variety, here's one from a batch I grew a long time ago.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[bubba]

[PalmatierMeg]

I took the following photos of my blue and red Latania today. For some reason - lighting? It is bright and sunny today - they look similarly colored in my pictures but in person you notice the differences right away. The blue Latan, only a 1g when I planted it a year or two after I'd planted a 3g red Latan, has overtaken the older red and is as tall and burlier. The blue is by far the commonest of the 3 species and is occasionally used in municipal plantings locally. Red and yellow Latans are hard to find.

Latania loddigesii (blue Latan), Cape Coral, FL, 2023

Latania lontaroides (red Latan), Cape Coral, FL 2023

Male inflorescense

[Looking Glass]

42 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I took the following photos of my blue and red Latania today. For some reason - lighting? It is bright and sunny today - they look similarly colored in my pictures but in person you notice the differences right away. The blue Latan, only a 1g when I planted it a year or two after I'd planted a 3g red Latan, has overtaken the older red and is as tall and burlier. The blue is by far the commonest of the 3 species and is occasionally used in municipal plantings locally. Red and yellow Latans are hard to find.

Latania loddigesii (blue Latan), Cape Coral, FL, 2023

Latania lontaroides (red Latan), Cape Coral, FL 2023

 

Male inflorescense

 

I was reading the old threads last night, and I can see that yours have grown quite a bit over the years.   They look great.  I’m really surprised how similar they look to the untrained eye, in the photos.   The main thing I notice is the red edges on the leaflets and petioles in the red adult.   Perhaps the red is a little more greenish in person. 

It seems people have been asking the same question over the past 14 years or so, and I can’t say it’s much clearer to me after going over everything I could find.   A few people mentioned  in various threads that they both have a fair amount of red when young, but then it all falls apart after that, when it comes to identifying fingerlings.  

They are starting to come up as municipal/street plantings here too, so someone out there must be pumping them out in quantity.  They do look great in person around here, without dominating an entire planting area, like a bismark does when it matures.  

Edited March 31, 2023 by Looking Glass

[Looking Glass]

So I went ahead and got one of each in 3g size….   I’m mini-Meg!

Here’s some pics for comparison…. 
Let me know if you agree with the IDs.   

 

Lantaroides on left, Loddigesii on right.

 

Lantaroides with more reddish leaflets, and slightly redder petioles…  Loddigesii more green with lighter red-pink petioles…..

 

Lantaroides top view, again more reddish….   Loddigesii more green with still red petioles and just red lines on the leaf margins and central vein.  

Another view from the side…  again Lantaroides red diffusely mixed in the leaflets, not just on the margins.  Loddigesii with chalkier petioles and green leaflets with a thin red line on the edges and the central leaflet area.  

 

I think this shows the differences pretty well, though they are still very similar, and get more similar as they age.  Differences are easier to see in person.   Both are really nice palms with age, though I expect Lanteroides to be kind of a smaller, light greener, lankier palm with age.    (If pictures and reports are accurate)

 

Lantaroides up front, Loddigesii in back….

Edited April 16, 2023 by Looking Glass

[mnorell]

On 3/30/2023 at 6:33 AM, aabell said:

Bismarckia fared very poorly here in Fort Myers during Ian, their leaves were all shredded and many lost their tops completely. 

Latania, including a few very tall older specimens all look flawless, not even minor leaf damage.

This was my experience as well on Big Pine Key in Irma. Cat 4/5 and winds were clocked at over 162mph and we were in the eyewall with mesovorticity, extreme and lengthy saltwater inundation…and Latania of all three species did fine. There are a couple of mature loddigesii that looked absolutely perfect afterward, in the direct slam of wind/rain and after that they rose to the top of the list for me. Pretty much the only other palms that did about as well were Adonidia, Thrinax, Sabal and most Phoenix, a couple of others. Even the natives Cocco/Leuco/Serenoa, also Cocos, fared only modestly in appearance and survival. But Latania was flawless across the board. 

[Looking Glass]

Went for a walk around the neighborhood tonight and ran into this guy a couple blocks away…..

It had a pronounced basal lump, and J-shaped curved base, with a thin trunk (should have taken a pic of that)….  My guess is L. lantaroides….  But it was pretty silvery….  Jesus these are still hard to tell apart.   I think loddigesii has the fatter, straight trunk.  

[D. Morrowii]

Does lonteroides have the white wooly tomentum? I was thinking that this might be one of the differences but it doesn't sound like it per the info below. 
 

From IFAS 

“The different species of Latan Palm can only be told apart by leaf color. Only young leaves that have not yet turned silvery should be used for this determination. Latania loddigesii , blue Latan Palm, has blue-grey leaves. Latania lontaroides , red Latan Palm, has reddish petiole, leaf margins and veins. Latania verschaffeltii , yellow Latan Palm, has leaf margins, veins, and petioles which are deep orange-yellow.”

But still isn't helping much… maybe lots of hybrids floating around out there. 

 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, D. Morrowii said:

Does lonteroides have the white wooly tomentum? I was thinking that this might be one of the differences but it doesn't sound like it per the info below. 
 

From IFAS 

“The different species of Latan Palm can only be told apart by leaf color. Only young leaves that have not yet turned silvery should be used for this determination. Latania loddigesii , blue Latan Palm, has blue-grey leaves. Latania lontaroides , red Latan Palm, has reddish petiole, leaf margins and veins. Latania verschaffeltii , yellow Latan Palm, has leaf margins, veins, and petioles which are deep orange-yellow.”

But still isn't helping much… maybe lots of hybrids floating around out there. 

 

It has some kind of wooly tormentum based on Meg’s pics above.   I was focusing on the trunk on the ground.   It was like the head of a golf club, then thin.   But it’s curving straight back in the pic, so it’s hard to see.  

[Merlyn]

I really like Latania, they kind of remind me of a very silver Brahea.  Unfortunately my only experience was a couple of seedlings that died the first time it hit 32F in the nursery area.  I read in @kinzyjr's spreadsheet that they are "Extremely tender as young palms," with small ones killed by 26-27F.  But they did okay at Leu in the brutal 2009 extended cold front, only taking about 20% damage.  Maybe this one is hardier than I thought?

[D. Morrowii]

@MerlynI thought I had left my 3 gallon lonteroides outside during this last Christmas cold snap (31.6F)  but they are not in couple pictures I took of that area so I must have put them in the heat tent I had set up. From what I’ve read it looks like 30-32 deg F and no frost is the limit. Sorry I don't have any real world info to share. 

[Looking Glass]

Goddammit Etsy, they are exactly the same….

 

After about 2 months out back in the same conditions, it’s now apparent these are both the same palm.    Reds I guess?… I don’t know.  The more I look at these palms, the less I’m able to tell, at any age.  

Either way, they seem to grow decently so far.  Much faster than my coccothrinax and Copernicia hospitas.  Ready to get at least one in the ground.  

[PalmatierMeg]

1 minute ago, Looking Glass said:

Goddammit Etsy, they are exactly the same….

 

After about 2 months out back in the same conditions, it’s now apparent these are both the same palm.    Reds I guess?… I don’t know.  The more I look at these palms, the less I’m able to tell, at any age.  

Either way, they seem to grow decently so far.  Much faster than my coccothrinax and Copernicia hospitas.  Ready to get at least one in the ground.  

I would say red. Red Latans are quite green compared to blues. Much of the red will fade and the leaves will turn a matte green as the palm grows. Good news is that red Latans are usually much harder to find and yellows are rarest of all.

[Looking Glass]

1 minute ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I would say red. Red Latans are quite green compared to blues. Much of the red will fade and the leaves will turn a matte green as the palm grows. Good news is that red Latans are usually much harder to find and yellows are rarest of all.

I think you are right.   I’d like to get my hands on a real 3g blue loddigesii so I can do a comparison line up, and document as they go.  

[NatureGirl]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:49 PM, D. Morrowii said:

I have 2 of these punk rock palmettos in pots that are supposed to be a red and a blue. They do look a little different from each other. The supposed blue is a pale green with purple/red on the leaf borders and petioles. The supposed red is much brighter green with bright red borders and petioles. What @PalmatierMegand @aztropicare saying makes me think perhaps one or both are Red or probably hybrids. 
Just for fun and reference here is an L. loddegesii at Kopsick.

and a mini bismarck -  L. ? at Crane Point Hammock in the keys.

And a probable L lonteroides at Crane Point Hammock. 

I think that loddegesii may be a more attractive palm when mature but then again if they all look the same then who knows? I wonder do Red latans have the foam like white leaf bases when mature? I’ll get pics of my juvis once I get home. 

I’ve grown both Red and Blue Latania’s, also Yellow’s for that matter. The red’s are redder than the blues, when they are 3 gal size., but otherwise look similar. I had two Mature Red’s in my yard, they stay a nice ‘’Green’ color, and lose the red outlines, as they age.  Blue’s do turn that pretty blue as they age. I had a mature yellow as well. All 3 were lost in Winter of 2010-2011. They are more tender than a coconut.

[Looking Glass]

Attempt #2…

Well, @PalmatierMeg pointed me toward a loddigesii on eBay, so I pulled the trigger (thanks!).   It arrived bare root, but packaged well.  There was also a shipping delay so it took 5 days to travel 100 miles 😳.  That’s a rough trip with bare roots.  Hopefully it will be ok.   

It’s the size of an overgrown 1g, so I potted it up in an odd sized 4?g pot.    Hopefully it will take to its new home.  

The biggest difference I see is the petioles are just outlined in red rather than all red, and leaves and stems are a bluer-green and a little more powdery.   Still the differences are subtle and hard to capture in pics.  But it’s younger, so we shall see.  A few months growing under the same conditions will be interesting.  

Loddigesii just a tad more blue, especially in the petioles….

 

Lantaroides vs loddigesii…

 

I better not have triplets in a few months!…

[sonoranfans]

there are some nice blue ones in holmes beach, anna maria island.  At first I thought they were bonsai(due to poor growing conditions) bizzies.  They are beautiful palms that have a much less dense crown of half the leaves compared with bismarckia which can carry 20-25 leaves.   A smaller less rigid sail, less forces transmitted to the trunk, a crown about half the width of a bizzie should be much better in wind.   A cat 4-5 hurricane can be the death of many palms, the more they resist wind, the worse it will be.  Ian took 10 windward leaves off my largest 45' royal and split petioles on the lower half of a 30'+ sabal causiarum.  A notoriously bad palm in wind, a 25' sabal mauritiiformis was directly on the leeward side of a 35' southern magnolia nestled up to it and it took minimal damage, much less than my sabal causiarum which was totally exposed .  Taller palms in exposed positions will see the highest wind velocities.  Having palms bunched probably saved many palms as this reduces wind drag on each.  In sandy soil, root systems have a tough time holding onto soil and palms will be more susceptible to tipping.  I can agree that even a cat 3 hurricane is probably too much for a bismarckia.  Latan might be the only blue fan palm that can handle those big winds.  I cannot recommend either copernicia baileyana or fallaensis in those kinds of winds, they are even more fragile than bismarckia and they grew back much slower than my bismarckia from Irma.

[aztropic]

On 6/20/2023 at 12:19 PM, Looking Glass said:

Attempt #2…

Well, @PalmatierMeg pointed me toward a loddigesii on eBay, so I pulled the trigger (thanks!).   It arrived bare root, but packaged well.  There was also a shipping delay so it took 5 days to travel 100 miles 😳.  That’s a rough trip with bare roots.  Hopefully it will be ok.   

It’s the size of an overgrown 1g, so I potted it up in an odd sized 4?g pot.    Hopefully it will take to its new home.  

The biggest difference I see is the petioles are just outlined in red rather than all red, and leaves and stems are a bluer-green and a little more powdery.   Still the differences are subtle and hard to capture in pics.  But it’s younger, so we shall see.  A few months growing under the same conditions will be interesting.  

Loddigesii just a tad more blue, especially in the petioles….

 

Lantaroides vs loddigesii…

 

I better not have triplets in a few months!…

No worries this time. You have a blue... 😄

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

No worries this time. You have a blue... 😄

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Yeah, the differences seem more obvious now.  For some reason, these are hard to find.   Harder than the reds for me.   It’s odd as they are using them for street plantings now.  You’d think they’d be more available.  
 

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

there are some nice blue ones in holmes beach, anna maria island.  At first I thought they were bonsai(due to poor growing conditions) bizzies.  They are beautiful palms that have a much less dense crown of half the leaves compared with bismarckia which can carry 20-25 leaves.   A smaller less rigid sail, less forces transmitted to the trunk, a crown about half the width of a bizzie should be much better in wind.   A cat 4-5 hurricane can be the death of many palms, the more they resist wind, the worse it will be.  Ian took 10 windward leaves off my largest 45' royal and split petioles on the lower half of a 30'+ sabal causiarum.  A notoriously bad palm in wind, a 25' sabal mauritiiformis was directly on the leeward side of a 35' southern magnolia nestled up to it and it took minimal damage, much less than my sabal causiarum which was totally exposed .  Taller palms in exposed positions will see the highest wind velocities.  Having palms bunched probably saved many palms as this reduces wind drag on each.  In sandy soil, root systems have a tough time holding onto soil and palms will be more susceptible to tipping.  I can agree that even a cat 3 hurricane is probably too much for a bismarckia.  Latan might be the only blue fan palm that can handle those big winds.  I cannot recommend either copernicia baileyana or fallaensis in those kinds of winds, they are even more fragile than bismarckia and they grew back much slower than my bismarckia from Irma.

When you look at where loddigesii come from, it’s costal, exposed rocky/sandy areas with poor soil and a dry season.  A good match for South Florida.  As you described, they are just a smaller, more flexible palm than a bizzie, which seems to help in hurricanes.  I don’t know why they aren’t more commonly used in residential plantings, though there are a few in random yards around town. 

[ruskinPalms]

Sadly, several that were growing flawlessly at the I75/US 301 junction in Ellenton have died recently. I doubt from cold or hurricane damage. Probably lethal bronzing…

[ruskinPalms]

There are still some left doing great which tends to rule out mechanical or thermal damage. 

[The Palm Nut]

I have two of the reds, one next to the mangroves. The other under my microcarpa hillii fig. Not particularly fast growers but still retaining the red colour. Both are in shade most of the year which would be part of the reason for the slow growth. During king tides one gets some level of salt water on the roots which leaves me to believe they have a high tolerance for saltwater. Both are in well-draining soils. This part of the garden is left to the elements and environment to which they grow, and I guess first indicators of sea level rise in my garden.