Trachycarpus variants hardiness

[Stefanus]

Hi all,

Early this year I purchased the following Trachycarpus seedlings: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Trachycarpus Wagnerianus, Trachycarpus “Takil”, Trachycarpus “Kumaon”, Trachycarpus Princeps “Stone gate”, Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis and Trachycarpus Wagnerianus x Fortunei. For these variants I have read various claims, the Manipur and Princeps would be less cold tolerant and the Takil and Kumaon would be more cold tolerant compared with the normal Fortunei. Does anyone have personal experience with these forms? Is the difference in cold hardiness significant?

Stefan

[Las Palmas Norte]

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis (Manipur) dead at 11°F (-10°C) with substantial center spear and trunk protection.

[SeanK]

There is much variation even among a group of fortuneis.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis (Manipur) dead at 11°F (-10°C) with substantial center spear and trunk protection.

Damn that was a beauty, I remember the pics when you planted it. Sorry for that one. 

[Stefanus]

6 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis (Manipur) dead at 11°F (-10°C) with substantial center spear and trunk protection.

Thank you for sharing, what a loss! Didn’t expect that, I hoped it would be a bit hardier even without protection.

[Flow]

I guess, claims that takil is more coldhardy than fortunei were originally made because of takil's provenance from high mountains in northern India. In recent years, European palm enthusiasts have experienced that it is significantly less coldhardy than fortunei. And as a seedling, it is much, much slower. T. ukhrulensis is about as coldhardy as takil, which means much less than fortunei, as you can see in Las Palmas Norte's post. I'd say -8 to -10 C for any length of time is the limit.

Wagnerianus is just a horticultural variant of fortunei, the hardiness is the same but it handles strong winds and snow better because of its stiff leaves.

In my garden, T. princeps is only slightly less coldhardy than fortunei.

I don't have any experience with sp. "Kumaon" but I strongly doubt it will be more coldhardy than fortunei.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Flow

[Stefanus]

Thanks for sharing this information. Interesting that the Takil in fact is less cold hardy than the Fortunei while the seller claims it is by far the hardiest variety. Positive to read that you have good experience with the Princeps! I’ll try to plant them all in my garden in a few years and track the growth and freeze damage in my climate. Of course these individual seedlings will not represent the whole variety but will give some insights. 

[Allen]

5 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Thanks for sharing this information. Interesting that the Takil in fact is less cold hardy than the Fortunei while the seller claims it is by far the hardiest variety. Positive to read that you have good experience with the Princeps! I’ll try to plant them all in my garden in a few years and track the growth and freeze damage in my climate. Of course these individual seedlings will not represent the whole variety but will give some insights. 

Nothing has been really proven to be hardier than fortunei.  People may chime in with various "my palm survived this and that" but don't waste your energy on other variants for hardiness just only if you want a different looking palm.

[fr8train]

15 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis (Manipur) dead at 11°F (-10°C) with substantial center spear and trunk protection.

 

I've been looking for Manipur seeds, but no luck finding them anywhere. It's sad to see yours didn't make it.

I'd be interested in knowing the hardiness of princeps too, as I have quite a few of them and I'd like to try them in the ground here, but I also would hate to lose even one. 

[westfork]

A lot of confusion may be added by the range of cold hardiness within each species.   Not to mention misidentification.   Provenance of genetics and individual variation may make little difference in some species but have a huge effect in others.

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

Nothing has been really proven to be hardier than fortunei.  People may chime in with various "my palm survived this and that" but don't waste your energy on other variants for hardiness just only if you want a different looking palm.

100%!!  Also don't believe the hype about Bulgarian strain Fortunei, it's a marketing gimmick.

 

[Stefanus]

3 hours ago, Allen said:

Nothing has been really proven to be hardier than fortunei.  People may chime in with various "my palm survived this and that" but don't waste your energy on other variants for hardiness just only if you want a different looking palm.

I have to admit that I ordered the Takil partly because of the hardiness-claims but also because of the appearance of the Takils in Rome. But for what I understand now this claim is at least questionable. The Ukhrulensis, Princeps and Kumaon are just palms that I wanted in my small collection because of their appearance. Also I selected these because I was hoping to get them through the winter unprotected (zone 8B). We’ll see about that!

[Stefanus]

By the way, this is the size of the seedlings. 

[Yort]

This Trachycarpus ukhrulensis was planted about 11 years ago in Haarsteeg the Netherlands as a three year old plant. It has received severe frosts and never showed damage. It has never been protected. You can compare the growth speed with the Trachycarpus fortunei X wagnerianus on the left which was sown and planted in the same years. Growth speed is similar in this case but some other fortunei in the same garden are much faster.

[Stefanus]

1 hour ago, Yort said:

This Trachycarpus ukhrulensis was planted about 11 years ago in Haarsteeg the Netherlands as a three year old plant. It has received severe frosts and never showed damage. It has never been protected. You can compare the growth speed with the Trachycarpus fortunei X wagnerianus on the left which was sown and planted in the same years. Growth speed is similar in this case but some other fortunei in the same garden are much faster.

Thanks for sharing! So, again the variance in hardiness differs a lot in individual palms assuming this palm has been exposed to temperatures below -10C. Nice couple of palms by the way!

[Las Palmas Norte]

21 hours ago, teddytn said:

Damn that was a beauty, I remember the pics when you planted it. Sorry for that one.

 

17 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Thank you for sharing, what a loss! Didn’t expect that, I hoped it would be a bit hardier even without protection.

Don't let my experience hinder your experimentation with palms. Even hardy palms in my location seem to suffer in the mid to low 20's F (-4°C to -6°C). I have yet to discover why that is the case. There are nice palms around town but not at my house. 😄

[Drew N Carolina]

For me the trachycarpus fortunei have been slightly more hardy than wagnerianus. My "local" variety of fortunei, from Gary's Nursery seem to be the best overall variety so far for adaptation throughout the entire year. Also trachycarpus fortunei Nanital seems very hardy and in my opinion may be the most cold hardy variety but has been growing very slowly here in North Carolina. Bulgaria is about as cold hardy as any other variety , I really like it for the nice stiff leaves and it seems quite vigorous as well. Nova is fast but a little less hardy so far, to be determined. Princeps is a little less hardy and I believe will hate my heavy clay soil from what I'm told, mine are seed grown but still containerized. But the princeps hybrids seem to be either on par or nearly so with fortunei for hardiness.  I do have a few small takil but I'm allowing them to get some size on them prior to planting them, I expect they will be less hardy but we'll see. In 2018 when much of the SE US had a deep freeze many takil were killed while many princeps survived. I also have some wagnerianus x nanus and the reverse cross both are fairly hardy but still i haven't really tested them here yet but I'd say so far slightly less hardy than fortunei maybe close to a waggy. I don't have a ukrhulensis or Manipur, I've heard that ukrhulensis may be slightly more hardy but they are both difficult to find here, at least for a reasonable price. I'd like to try a trachycarpus geminsectus someday.

[Chester B]

22 hours ago, Stefanus said:

I have to admit that I ordered the Takil partly because of the hardiness-claims but also because of the appearance of the Takils in Rome. But for what I understand now this claim is at least questionable. The Ukhrulensis, Princeps and Kumaon are just palms that I wanted in my small collection because of their appearance. Also I selected these because I was hoping to get them through the winter unprotected (zone 8B). We’ll see about that!

It's great to have variety.  In zone 8B these should all perform well for you without protection.

[Stefanus]

Since a week I have moved most of my seedlings from my office to my garden and I found out that most of them changed in a bad way. I guess i have placed them on a place with to much sun but I’m not sure. Anyone an idea what I did wrong? See photos below of a waggy with brown spots and a Chamaerops Humilis with folded/thin leaves. 

[NWpalms@206]

On 4/11/2023 at 7:26 AM, fr8train said:

I've been looking for Manipur seeds, but no luck finding them anywhere. It's sad to see yours didn't make it.

I'd be interested in knowing the hardiness of princeps too, as I have quite a few of them and I'd like to try them in the ground here, but I also would hate to lose even one. 

Check the for sale section i just bought 100 manipur seeds from a still current post...

[Will]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:54 AM, Flow said:

I guess, claims that takil is more coldhardy than fortunei were originally made because of takil's provenance from high mountains in northern India. In recent years, European palm enthusiasts have experienced that it is significantly less coldhardy than fortunei. And as a seedling, it is much, much slower. T. ukhrulensis is about as coldhardy as takil, which means much less than fortunei, as you can see in Las Palmas Norte's post. I'd say -8 to -10 C for any length of time is the limit.

Wagnerianus is just a horticultural variant of fortunei, the hardiness is the same but it handles strong winds and snow better because of its stiff leaves.

In my garden, T. princeps is only slightly less coldhardy than fortunei.

I don't have any experience with sp. "Kumaon" but I strongly doubt it will be more coldhardy than fortunei.

 

 

I have heard that Takil is actually more cold hardy. Just when small it's more prune to fungy infections due to some bacteria in the soil we have which don't exist in it's natural habitat. So when watering it or rain is splashing soil on the palm (since when small the palm heart is just above the ground) there is a higher chance of infection. 

Some people around here noted that when using stones around the basis the likelihood of getting spear pull reduced drastically. 

I haven't done any experiments myself, this is just what I heard from some more experienced palm growers around here.

[Meangreen94z]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:00 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis (Manipur) dead at 11°F (-10°C) with substantial center spear and trunk protection.

Are you 100% sure that’s dead?

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Are you 100% sure that’s dead?

Oh ya. 3 fronds and the emerging spear pulled back in February.  Just a dark gaping hole remains 3 months later.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Las Palmas Norte

[fr8train]

10 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Oh ya. 3 fronds and the emerging spear pulled back in February.  Just a dark gaping hole remains 3 months later.

I have a princeps that spear pulled over 2 years ago, and while it didn't burn its leaves, it just recently pushed out some leaves. I was 99% sure it was dead. The only thing that kept hope going for me was that the remainder of its leaves stayed green during that entire time, but there was zero growth. 

[Will]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:45 PM, Will said:

I have heard that Takil is actually more cold hardy. Just when small it's more prune to fungy infections due to some bacteria in the soil we have which don't exist in it's natural habitat. So when watering it or rain is splashing soil on the palm (since when small the palm heart is just above the ground) there is a higher chance of infection. 

Some people around here noted that when using stones around the basis the likelihood of getting spear pull reduced drastically. 

I haven't done any experiments myself, this is just what I heard from some more experienced palm growers around here.

Add: It seems that also Princeps had the same fungy problem like Takil.

[Luis Arroyo]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:14 AM, Stefanus said:

Thank you for sharing, what a loss! Didn’t expect that, I hoped it would be a bit hardier even without protection.

The petioles were still green. Maybe could have been saved by pouring hydrogen peroxide into the crown to save the meristem/heart.

[Luis Arroyo]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:19 PM, Yort said:

This Trachycarpus ukhrulensis was planted about 11 years ago in Haarsteeg the Netherlands as a three year old plant. It has received severe frosts and never showed damage. It has never been protected. You can compare the growth speed with the Trachycarpus fortunei X wagnerianus on the left which was sown and planted in the same years. Growth speed is similar in this case but some other fortunei in the same garden are much faster.

Has strong resemblance to Takil in the crown having the same fluffy yellow fuzz. Except the liguels of Takil are short & triangular while Manipur/Ukhrulensis liguels are a little longer & "cut off ".

[kristof p]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:54 AM, Flow said:

I guess, claims that takil is more coldhardy than fortunei were originally made because of takil's provenance from high mountains in northern India. In recent years, European palm enthusiasts have experienced that it is significantly less coldhardy than fortunei. And as a seedling, it is much, much slower. T. ukhrulensis is about as coldhardy as takil, which means much less than fortunei, as you can see in Las Palmas Norte's post. I'd say -8 to -10 C for any length of time is the limit.

Wagnerianus is just a horticultural variant of fortunei, the hardiness is the same but it handles strong winds and snow better because of its stiff leaves.

In my garden, T. princeps is only slightly less coldhardy than fortunei.

I don't have any experience with sp. "Kumaon" but I strongly doubt it will be more coldhardy than fortunei.

 

 

There seems to be some variation in cold hardiness with ukhrulensis, just like fortunei....my almost 20 year old ukhrulensis has seen a few times -8°C with ice and snow without much damage. I had a few more which died at a young age with temperatures lower then -10°C while one survived so it is the only one I have left.  Same story for oreophilus. I have one big oreophilus left from all the ones I planted in the garden many years ago. It is less hardy then ukhrulensis and leaves burn at around -7°C.  Just slightly hardier then T. latisectus

[Luis Arroyo]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:45 PM, Will said:

I have heard that Takil is actually more cold hardy. Just when small it's more prune to fungy infections due to some bacteria in the soil we have which don't exist in it's natural habitat. So when watering it or rain is splashing soil on the palm (since when small the palm heart is just above the ground) there is a higher chance of infection. 

Some people around here noted that when using stones around the basis the likelihood of getting spear pull reduced drastically. 

I haven't done any experiments myself, this is just what I heard from some more experienced palm growers around here.

I just realized something about Takil photos on the web, this is a Mountain Palm that grows along slopes. Every photo shows The Palms growing on the sides of steep hills with other conifers or pine trees. I've never seen a photo of the Palm sitting on a low-lying area. I think takil grows on the dryer side of mountains and Hills in a rain shadow. It might be this dryer Mountain environment that allows the palm to survive cold temperatures and get dies easily in cultivation from overwatering.

[SeanK]

There is a lot of variation among fortuneis below 10° F. The comparison to other alleged species may be moot. Our Dec 2022 event, 50°F rain followed by 5°F cold showed us a lot here in the SE US.

[Dwarf Fan]

On 5/8/2023 at 5:39 AM, Stefanus said:

Since a week I have moved most of my seedlings from my office to my garden and I found out that most of them changed in a bad way. I guess i have placed them on a place with to much sun but I’m not sure. Anyone an idea what I did wrong? See photos below of a waggy with brown spots and a Chamaerops Humilis with folded/thin leaves. 

Top pic is too much sun without enough water looks like it just dried out. Be careful moving new smaller palms into direct sunlight. They probably came from a greenhouse or an indirect/dappled sun position.

Dont let them dry out when in a sunny spot, I have had this happen to a few palms before, it should recover, but it has taken damage and will probably grow slower now so take it to a more indirect sun position to recover and don’t let it dry out.

Bottom pic is a different cause not sure, but the top pic is definitely too much sun and it dried out while in direct sunlight.