Palm & Cycad ID Help

[MobileBayGarden]

Hi y’all, 

I was at my neighborhood garden shop today and found a palm and cycad that I was unfamiliar with,  and of course they had no labels. The employee only knew the price and had no clue about the species. If anyone can help I’m trying to do some research before I spend the money. Thanks

Philippe

[NatureGirl]

Licuala Palm and Dioon

[MobileBayGarden]

2 minutes ago, NatureGirl said:

Licuala Palm and Dioon

thank you, any idea which type of Dioon?

[Palm Tree Jim]

Looks like spinulosum.

[MobileBayGarden]

Just now, Palm Tree Jim said:

Looks like spinulosum.

Thank you!

[MobileBayGarden]

Is it Licuala grandis?

[Merlyn]

Yep, definitely Dioon Spinulosum.  They are hardy to ~28F or so before taking some damage, I have a big 3' trunk one that took minimal frond damage at 4-5 hours of 24-26F. 

The Licuala is probably not Grandis, the fronds are a bit too large and too split.  I'd guess Spinosa, though I'm seriously just making a random guess.   

Offer them $100 for each.    Seriously though, retail prices might be $200-500 each for the Licuala and Spinulosum...maybe more depending on the location.  In Mobile they are patio plants and aren't hardy enough to go into the ground.

[Billeb]

…..agreed on the above ID’s. 
 

The real question….how much were these bad boys??!!? Do tell.

 

-dale

[MobileBayGarden]

4 minutes ago, Billeb said:

…..agreed on the above ID’s. 
 

The real question….how much were these bad boys??!!? Do tell.

 

-dale

The Licuala was $599 and the Dioon was $129 I believe. He said he could probably drop the price on the palm because it was the last one and was left from over from last season. They are tired of moving it out in the parking lot with a forklift everyday. 🤣 Are they fair prices?

[MobileBayGarden]

47 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Yep, definitely Dioon Spinulosum.  They are hardy to ~28F or so before taking some damage, I have a big 3' trunk one that took minimal frond damage at 4-5 hours of 24-26F. 

The Licuala is probably not Grandis, the fronds are a bit too large and too split.  I'd guess Spinosa, though I'm seriously just making a random guess.   

Offer them $100 for each.    Seriously though, retail prices might be $200-500 each for the Licuala and Spinulosum...maybe more depending on the location.  In Mobile they are patio plants and aren't hardy enough to go into the ground.

Thank you for the info! That definitely made my decision. I’m in 9A but there is always that crazy winter every decade or so. 
 

[Merlyn]

3 hours ago, MobileBayGarden said:

Thank you for the info! That definitely made my decision. I’m in 9A but there is always that crazy winter every decade or so.

The Licuala might not be Spinosa either, though it does have black teeth:  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Licuala_spinosa  Grandis has white/straw colored thorns.  There are a lot of Licuala that all look vaguely similar, so it's hard to make an ID when they are a little tattered.  And I'm definitely no Licuala expert...  Depending on the species it *might* be hardy enough for 9A in ground.  Dioon Spinulosum is normally listed as 10A, but mine have been solid 9B and borderline 9A.  But Florida 9B here typically means 1 or 2 9B nights per year.  Lots of nights in the 20s may kill either plant.  But the nice thing about Spinulosum is that it'll handle full sun to full shade in a humid summer.  If it's hot & dry neither of them will like full sun.

$129 is a very good price for almost-trunking Spinulosum.  I'd bargain them down on the Licuala...$300ish would be a very good wholesale price for one that big.

[Billeb]

3 hours ago, MobileBayGarden said:

The Licuala was $599 and the Dioon was $129 I believe. He said he could probably drop the price on the palm because it was the last one and was left from over from last season. They are tired of moving it out in the parking lot with a forklift everyday. 🤣 Are they fair prices?

As @Merlyn stated, I think $129 for the Dioon is a good price and worth a shot in your zone. $599 for the Licuala is high but probably isn’t too far off either as they are slow. But the fact that they want to get rid of it tells me you could get it for much cheaper. 
 

Just the fact that they are sitting there in your zone means they are growable but the Dioon will do better. 
 

Remember…Dioon grow on rocky hillsides in Mexico so merely throwing it in the ground with well drained soil and watering it “when you remember” will likely suffice.  Cycads are living fossils. Better to underwater than overwater. 
 

-dale 

[tim_brissy_13]

At first glance I thought Licuala ramsayi var ramsayi. But I’m no expert especially when it comes to subtle differences between Licuala sp (inflo etc)

[PalmatierMeg]

A Licuala in Mobile, AL. Will wonders ever cease? I would guess spinosa if only because it is the commonest and cold hardiest of the genus although I’ve not seen one around here since before the last housing bust. Licuala ramsayii that large at a BB garden center? I’ve never seen such a thing way down here.

Those Dioons are choice and the price reasonable.

[MobileBayGarden]

1 hour ago, Billeb said:

As @Merlyn stated, I think $129 for the Dioon is a good price and worth a shot in your zone. $599 for the Licuala is high but probably isn’t too far off either as they are slow. But the fact that they want to get rid of it tells me you could get it for much cheaper. 
 

Just the fact that they are sitting there in your zone means they are growable but the Dioon will do better. 
 

Remember…Dioon grow on rocky hillsides in Mexico so merely throwing it in the ground with well drained soil and watering it “when you remember” will likely suffice.  Cycads are living fossils. Better to underwater than overwater. 
 

-dale 

Thanks so much Sir! I think I’ll head back over tomorrow and see what I can work out with them.
 

The only thing that concerns me is putting the Dioon in the ground if it is native to dry cliffs. Mobile, AL is the rainiest city in the country by volume with about 67 inches yearly on average so we typically don’t water much of anything. The natural soil if highly organic and slightly sandy, basically black and looks like potting mix with no clay and no natural stone or anything larger than a sand grain. Do you think I should just keep it potted or try amending the soil and build up a mound like I do with my palms? Thanks again for all the help. 
 

Philippe

[MobileBayGarden]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

The Licuala might not be Spinosa either, though it does have black teeth:  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Licuala_spinosa  Grandis has white/straw colored thorns.  There are a lot of Licuala that all look vaguely similar, so it's hard to make an ID when they are a little tattered.  And I'm definitely no Licuala expert...  Depending on the species it *might* be hardy enough for 9A in ground.  Dioon Spinulosum is normally listed as 10A, but mine have been solid 9B and borderline 9A.  But Florida 9B here typically means 1 or 2 9B nights per year.  Lots of nights in the 20s may kill either plant.  But the nice thing about Spinulosum is that it'll handle full sun to full shade in a humid summer.  If it's hot & dry neither of them will like full sun.

$129 is a very good price for almost-trunking Spinulosum.  I'd bargain them down on the Licuala...$300ish would be a very good wholesale price for one that big.

Thanks so much! I appreciate all the help.

Philippe

[MobileBayGarden]

33 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

A Licuala in Mobile, AL. Will wonders ever cease? I would guess spinosa if only because it is the commonest and cold hardiest of the genus although I’ve not seen one around here since before the last housing bust. Licuala ramsayii that large at a BB garden center? I’ve never seen such a thing way down here.

Those Dioons are choice and the price reasonable.

Thank you. I wish we had y’all’s selection, but hopefully it will keep improving. Have a great weekend!

 

Philippe

[Merlyn]

Ramsayi is a possibility too, I am not sure what color teeth they have.  It occurred to me that it might be Licuala Peltata v. Sumawongii, as they can tolerate being out in lots of sun at that size.  The big solid round fronds could just be split up by handling, since you said they move it in and out of the back all the time.  Licuala Peltata (regular type) is pretty similar but with big splits in the fronds.  Both are reasonably hardy to 9B but 9A is a stretch.  They also have big black teeth like this thread:

And you can see the giant teeth in some photos here: https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Licuala_peltata_var._peltata

As far as rain, I have 50ish inches of rain per year and Dioon Spinulosum handles dry sandy raised areas and deep shade spots with a rich sand mix (probably 50% organic).  I have 11 Spinulosum (or Rzedowskii) in the ground and 2 more in pots.  I think the concern with your super-rich soil would be root or caudex rot in the winter.  This is only a guess.  Licuala generally like it wet, so most likely they'd be fine in the soil, maybe add some perlite or Turface MVP to loosen up and aerate the soil.  Likewise wet soil in the winter might lead to root rot.

Personally I'd grow both as giant patio plants in a pot, and then wheel them up next to the house on cold nights.  But that's mostly because I think they'd take severe damage in the low 20s, and it'd be a lot easier to protect a potted plant.  In a severe multi-night freeze it's much easier to push them up to the house and throw a sheet over them, and maybe put a couple of incandescent lights for a few extra watts of warmth.

[Billeb]

54 minutes ago, MobileBayGarden said:

Thanks so much Sir! I think I’ll head back over tomorrow and see what I can work out with them.
 

The only thing that concerns me is putting the Dioon in the ground if it is native to dry cliffs. Mobile, AL is the rainiest city in the country by volume with about 67 inches yearly on average so we typically don’t water much of anything. The natural soil if highly organic and slightly sandy, basically black and looks like potting mix with no clay and no natural stone or anything larger than a sand grain. Do you think I should just keep it potted or try amending the soil and build up a mound like I do with my palms? Thanks again for all the help. 
 

Philippe

Philippe, you could throw it in the ground but if you do…I would definitely add a good amount of pumice mixed in with a cactus mix or the like to the hole to ensure it’s very well draining. A very good amount.  As @Merlyn stated, your soil could cause a root rot condition if it holds the water too much. 
 

You can always leave it in the pot too. That’s the safer bet for sure, but I’d ground it. I have had two identical cycads (Encephalartos Lehmanii) one I put in the ground,and one is still in the pot. The one in the ground looks better and has grown better than the potted one. In my experience, they are happier in the ground.  Although I’m in 10B so my zone allows for better conditions. 
 

-dale 

[MobileBayGarden]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Ramsayi is a possibility too, I am not sure what color teeth they have.  It occurred to me that it might be Licuala Peltata v. Sumawongii, as they can tolerate being out in lots of sun at that size.  The big solid round fronds could just be split up by handling, since you said they move it in and out of the back all the time.  Licuala Peltata (regular type) is pretty similar but with big splits in the fronds.  Both are reasonably hardy to 9B but 9A is a stretch.  They also have big black teeth like this thread:

And you can see the giant teeth in some photos here: https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Licuala_peltata_var._peltata

As far as rain, I have 50ish inches of rain per year and Dioon Spinulosum handles dry sandy raised areas and deep shade spots with a rich sand mix (probably 50% organic).  I have 11 Spinulosum (or Rzedowskii) in the ground and 2 more in pots.  I think the concern with your super-rich soil would be root or caudex rot in the winter.  This is only a guess.  Licuala generally like it wet, so most likely they'd be fine in the soil, maybe add some perlite or Turface MVP to loosen up and aerate the soil.  Likewise wet soil in the winter might lead to root rot.

Personally I'd grow both as giant patio plants in a pot, and then wheel them up next to the house on cold nights.  But that's mostly because I think they'd take severe damage in the low 20s, and it'd be a lot easier to protect a potted plant.  In a severe multi-night freeze it's much easier to push them up to the house and throw a sheet over them, and maybe put a couple of incandescent lights for a few extra watts of warmth.

I do believe the you are spot on with Sumawongii. The teeth are identical and it definitely doesn’t mind full sun, even the oblong fruit shape is similar. Thanks again!

 

Philippe

[MobileBayGarden]

So the same local nursery got some new stuff in last week. This is the only one I couldn’t identify if y’all could help out. I’m assuming it is 3 trees planted like this but I’m not sure. They want $159 for one. Is this a good price? 
 

Philippe

[Merlyn]

@MobileBayGarden no picture?

[MobileBayGarden]

[JLM]

Adonidia merillii. Theres some at a local walmart here that are just showing their first trunk rings. Not sure what the price was though. These are annuals here unless you live on the beach and you get lucky enough to not get any temp below 38F.

[MobileBayGarden]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:38 PM, JLM said:

Adonidia merillii. Theres some at a local walmart here that are just showing their first trunk rings. Not sure what the price was though. These are annuals here unless you live on the beach and you get lucky enough to not get any temp below 38F.

Very helpful! Thank you

[Merlyn]

Yup, they'd make a nice annual or patio plant up there.  They aren't particularly cold/cool/frost hardy.  My triple died after the first winter, and I haven't bothered to try again.  The reports in Kinzyjr's hardiness spreadsheet are pretty consistent with lots of damage in the 30-35F area and death below.  If you haven't seen this sheet, he compiled this out of the forum's freeze damage reports and a couple of other source.  The latest version has just under 5000 damage reports.  It's been really useful for me in figuring out planting locations (sun/shade/canopy/front/back yard/etc) and ruling out species that have no chance in my 9B/9A borderline area.