Sabal minor hardiness zone

[PashkaTLT]

Hello guys,

I find conflicting information about Sabal Minor. Some sources say it's zone 5 hardy, others say it's zone 7 hardy, etc.

Please share your experience.

[teddytn]

Without protection the toughest Sabal minor variants are reliably hardy to 6a/6b after they’re established and mature though. Any colder and it’s a gamble and will definitely require protection indefinitely 

[Drew N Carolina]

I usually say zone 7 to be safe whenever folks ask me. They should be okay In a zone 6 as long as the climate has hot summers and with proper placement and some protection as needed.

[westfork]

I am sure genetics of the particular population has a lot to do with it.  They naturalized in some zone 6a areas, populating the area from seed over a sixty year span.  (For instance, the Cumberland Plateau in the Kentucky/Tennessee border area)  Those 6a areas are now 6b, but they thrived before the winters got warmer.  Probably some natural selection taking place over many generations of volunteers.

 

[ChicagoPalma]

12 hours ago, westfork said:

I am sure genetics of the particular population has a lot to do with it.  They naturalized in some zone 6a areas, populating the area from seed over a sixty year span.  (For instance, the Cumberland Plateau in the Kentucky/Tennessee border area)  Those 6a areas are now 6b, but they thrived before the winters got warmer.  Probably some natural selection taking place over many generations of volunteers.

 

sabal minors can grow in zone 6a if protected with minor protection, but yeah you should be safe if they are mature, acclimatized, and established.

[SeanK]

z7 rated

z6 defoliate

z5 death

Survive one night does not mean can be grown successfully as the number of HDD is much higher.

[teddytn]

11 minutes ago, SeanK said:

z7 rated

z6 defoliate

z5 death

Survive one night does not mean can be grown successfully as the number of HDD is much higher.

The numbers are hard for some people to understand. If said palm survived a super low temp that’s great. Doesn’t mean it can handle that cold every winter, and definitely doesn’t mean it can handle that cold when young and not established. And every different specimen out of even the same seed batch can be a little different 

[Allen]

6A/6B S. minor need to be the regular medium size S. minor (Not Louisiana or hybrids) and need to be sited well.   Probably protected with leaves or mulch in super cold.  In 7A and above plant anywhere. 

[PaPalmTrees]

im in z6b should I protect my s.minor for the first winter?

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 minute ago, PaPalmTree said:

im in z6b should I protect my s.minor for the first winter?

I would & allow it to gain some established size.

[Allen]

1 minute ago, PaPalmTree said:

im in z6b should I protect my s.minor for the first winter?

 

Below 5F wrap with frost cloth and pile dry leaves or mulch around in a leaf cage with cover is ideal

[SeanK]

36 minutes ago, teddytn said:

The numbers are hard for some people to understand. If said palm survived a super low temp that’s great. Doesn’t mean it can handle that cold every winter, and definitely doesn’t mean it can handle that cold when young and not established. And every different specimen out of even the same seed batch can be a little different 

People can poke around at NOAA.gov and find HDD. Under monthly, the yearly is listed as cumulative. 

ATL 'burbs approx 2100

ATL city approx 1850 (heat island effect)

Augusta approx 1850

Birmingham 1900

Montgomery 1470

Pensacola 850

Jacksonville 860

Miami 70

[PaPalmTrees]

ok tysm

[SeanK]

5 minutes ago, PaPalmTree said:

im in z6b should I protect my s.minor for the first winter?

Every Year

[westfork]

Remember there is a gray area with no hard and fast rules.  Genetics probably plays a huge role.  Sabal minors naturalized to 6a/6b reproduce well in those areas just by normal seed dispersal, and those seeds survive the first winter with no human intervention.  Granted, it depends upon the severity of that first winter.  I just received a bunch of yearling seedlings from a man who just pulled volunteers up from around his property in new6b/old6a, but then I don't know what the Kentucky/Tennessee winter up in the Cumberland Plateau was like last year.  He recommends planting in those zones by just scattering seed.  But this is working with genetics that others moved north long ago.  There are write ups on some of these efforts in some palm society journals 50 to 70 years ago but I haven't located copies yet.

[Jack Lord]

I am in 7A and have 6 Sabal Minors doing well. The undisputed champ of the group is one that against a south facing wall, right next to some Pittosporum Tobira. I figure this might be an 8A microclimate. If someone has the same in 6A, then it should do all the better.

[Aceraceae]

On 4/17/2023 at 11:59 AM, SeanK said:

People can poke around at NOAA.gov and find HDD. Under monthly, the yearly is listed as cumulative. 

ATL 'burbs approx 2100

ATL city approx 1850 (heat island effect)

Augusta approx 1850

Birmingham 1900

Montgomery 1470

Pensacola 850

Jacksonville 860

Miami 70

Jacksonville Pensacola 800 HDD, Miami 70

North Florida needs 10x the heating of SFL

Of course 10x near 0 is still low. 

When there are quick cold snaps in tropical climates or warm snaps in cold climates, neither really creates a heating or cooling degrees day. The one or two chilly days a year in miami don't require getting the space heater out with high sun and cement walls, and almost nobody put the window unit AC in during the April 12 to 16 northeast heat wave. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Aceraceae

[Chester B]

Just a friendly reminder that there is a big difference between a southern zone 6 or 7 and a northern one.  Toronto is zone 7 yet you will not see any Sabal minors or Needle palms living happy lives without ever being protected, the same goes for Detroit.  Freezes can last 2 or more weeks at a time, and these palms can't really handle that.

[PashkaTLT]

4 hours ago, Chester B said:

Just a friendly reminder that there is a big difference between a southern zone 6 or 7 and a northern one.  Toronto is zone 7 yet you will not see any Sabal minors or Needle palms living happy lives without ever being protected, the same goes for Detroit.  Freezes can last 2 or more weeks at a time, and these palms can't really handle that.

Isn't Toronto zone 6?

[vtplantsman]

I have 2 Sabal minors along the north foundation of my house in Woodbury, NJ (barely Zone 7b).  They were planted in 2016, and I have protected them every winter.  Neither has ever had any winter damage, and they have flowered and produced viable seeds for the past 2-3 years.

I also planted a Sabal minor at a family member's house in Matawan in 1998 (Zone 7a).  That one is along the south foundation of an old concrete block house that leaks a lot of heat in the winter.  After 25 years it is alive and well, and has produced numerous seedlings.  It has never been protected, but has lost most of its outer fronds in cold years.

Climate zones are approximations at best, not magic numbers that determine whether something will thrive, survive, or die.  Next to the S. minor in Matawan, I planted a clump of African Iris (Dietes vegata), which has also survived there for 25 years.  This plant is usually listed as Zone 8, sometimes Zone 8b.  But, the planting location is perfect:  a narrow bed adjacent to a white-painted, poorly-insulated masonry house and bordered by a black asphalt driveway.

[westfork]

6 hours ago, Chester B said:

Just a friendly reminder that there is a big difference between a southern zone 6 or 7 and a northern one.  Toronto is zone 7 yet you will not see any Sabal minors or Needle palms living happy lives without ever being protected, the same goes for Detroit.  Freezes can last 2 or more weeks at a time, and these palms can't really handle that.

Agreed that the location of the zone makes a huge difference.  But with these palms it may be the heat of long summers (and warm summer nights) that allows them to survive extended periods of cold in the winter.  Experiences from people on this board report unprotected Sabal minor still there (at least prior to 2021) after twenty years in Kansas City.  Wichita? Maybe not entirely "happy lives" since they probably die back in harsh winters.  Not as far north as Toronto but they definitely get long hard freezes.

 

[westfork]

14 hours ago, Chester B said:

Just a friendly reminder that there is a big difference between a southern zone 6 or 7 and a northern one.  Toronto is zone 7 yet you will not see any Sabal minors or Needle palms living happy lives without ever being protected, the same goes for Detroit.  Freezes can last 2 or more weeks at a time, and these palms can't really handle that.

A follow-up to a reply I can't seem to edit:
In Clackamas you are in USDA hardiness zone 8B but Heat Zone 1

We are in USDA hardiness zone 5A but heat zone 7

Even though up north, grower experiences in 5B/6A suggest the continental climate may allow Sabal minors and needle palms to produce a lot of reserves to survive long cold freezes unprotected in a good microclimate.  The intense winter sun may also help, although we have learned many plants need protection from the burning early morning east sun on cold winter mornings.   The plant tissue actually gets quite warm while the air temperatures are well below freezing - Which can be good or bad depending on species and exposure.  So it may be possible that these species can take some extended periods below freezing if they have the hot summers.  Granted a hardiness zone 6 or 7 in the Northeast may lack the summer heat and winter sun that may make this possible.

[conceptualizeme]

23 hours ago, PashkaTLT said:

Isn't Toronto zone 6?

Toronto is mostly 6b, some 7a pockets in the downtown core. North Toronto where I used to live is 6a. If you're really getting specific, 5b in the very outskirts.

 

The average high temperature in winter is below freezing, and this can stay for weeks, as Chester B mentioned.

Edited April 20, 2023 by poof

[teddytn]

7 hours ago, poof said:

Toronto is mostly 6b, some 7a pockets in the downtown core. North Toronto where I used to live is 6a. If you're really getting specific, 5b in the very outskirts.

 

The average high temperature in winter is below freezing, and this can stay for weeks, as Chester B mentioned.

This is where people get confused again, going straight off zone numbers. There’s just places that are conducive to growing palms and those that aren’t. Without any checking I know for certain there’s zero unprotected palms in the ground in Toronto and Chicago

[conceptualizeme]

3 hours ago, teddytn said:

This is where people get confused again, going straight off zone numbers. There’s just places that are conducive to growing palms and those that aren’t. Without any checking I know for certain there’s zero unprotected palms in the ground in Toronto and Chicago

Same thing with here and coconuts. Well said.  Zones only give a fraction of the full story

 

They should be fine here zone-wise, yet they are extraordinarily rare. Too dry and not enough winter heat. Although unprotected palms in TO/Chicago are probably just impossible long term, instead of extremely difficult.

Edited April 20, 2023 by poof

[ChicagoPalma]

Its possible to have unprotected needle palms and sabal minors if put near the house in the right place, we got a low of -9 to -10 this winter so its possible especially with the rising temperatures.

[conceptualizeme]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Its possible to have unprotected needle palms and sabal minors if put near the house in the right place, we got a low of -9 to -10 this winter so its possible especially with the rising temperatures.

They might make it through the milder winters in TO/Chicago especially in a good microclimate, but both can and have dropped to or below -15f with likely no warmup for a long time. That is universally fatal to needles and sabal minor without protection.

It is an interesting experiment though, to be fair

Edited April 20, 2023 by poof

[ChicagoPalma]

After we get negatives one day it goes up by about 10-15 F.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Its possible to have unprotected needle palms and sabal minors if put near the house in the right place, we got a low of -9 to -10 this winter so its possible especially with the rising temperatures.

Really I mean all the best for you in your gardening ventures. A lot of people are being encouraging to you, but to have palms survive in Chicago they’ll need protection every year, seriously there’s no way around it. If anyone is giving you advice otherwise they’re wrong and I’ll tell them that. 

[ChicagoPalma]

Yes I know, but im just experimenting.

[Chester B]

On 4/18/2023 at 8:25 PM, PashkaTLT said:

Isn't Toronto zone 6?

Parts of it, but zone 7 in the core.  There are a variety of zone 7 locations in Southern Ontario, including parts of Niagara, and down toward Windsor.  I have seen the odd cold hardy palm, but no one that I've heard of having 100% unprotected palms.  

 

On 4/19/2023 at 6:17 AM, westfork said:

A follow-up to a reply I can't seem to edit:
In Clackamas you are in USDA hardiness zone 8B but Heat Zone 1

I think the map you're looking at is incorrect.  We're zone 4 or 5 for heat.  Take a look at the American Hort Society map, that is more accurate.  The plantmaps one is a little loony for some reason.  I would say we typically get over 30 days at 86F or higher per year, and hit triple digits at least once per year.

 

[ChicagoPalma]

35 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Parts of it, but zone 7 in the core.  There are a variety of zone 7 locations in Southern Ontario, including parts of Niagara, and down toward Windsor.  I have seen the odd cold hardy palm, but no one that I've heard of having 100% unprotected palms.  

 

I think the map you're looking at is incorrect.  We're zone 4 or 5 for heat.  Take a look at the American Hort Society map, that is more accurate.  The plantmaps one is a little loony for some reason.  I would say we typically get over 30 days at 86F or higher per year, and hit triple digits at least once per year.

 

triple digits twice a year in chicago.

[Little Tex]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

triple digits twice a year in chicago.

*Laughs in Texan*

[westfork]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

  

I think the map you're looking at is incorrect.  We're zone 4 or 5 for heat.  Take a look at the American Hort Society map, that is more accurate.  The plantmaps one is a little loony for some reason.  I would say we typically get over 30 days at 86F or higher per year, and hit triple digits at least once per year.

 

Oops - I looked at the American Hort map for the overview but a search for your area pulled up the other map.

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, Little Tex said:

*Laughs in Texan*

*Speaks in Pritzker language* something something hot weather

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, Little Tex said:

*Laughs in Texan*

You guys do get warmer temps in the winter but us pritzker voters can get high 100s, lol

[Little Tex]

8 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Pritzker language

 

idk what pritzker has to do with this,

but I was just saying Texas can average in the triple digits not just two days

[teddytn]

2 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

idk what pritzker has to do with this,

but I was just saying Texas can average in the triple digits not just two days

Seriously yes! And this makes all the difference with growing palms. I’ll be the first one to acknowledge I’m literally at the edge of being able to grow palms successfully at my house, but it’s relatively few. Sabal minor, needle palm, and a few Sabal hybrids (unprotected). Last summer we had record 90f and above days, Don’t quote me, but pretty sure it was 3 months straight. And then a bunch scattered before and after that. In Texas at least in DFW area I’m pretty sure it was over 100f for that same period of time. Plus scattered before and after.

[ChicagoPalma]

21 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

 

idk what pritzker has to do with this,

but I was just saying Texas can average in the triple digits not just two days

It’s a joke, it’s kinda how the whole state voted against pritzker but he still won because of Chicago, so it’s not anything political it’s kinda like an inside joke here in Illinois.

[ChicagoPalma]

Y’all good down there, seems like you got a tornado in central Texas.