Phoenix hybrid

[Ubuwuntu]

I've had my eye on this palm for quite a while, it's very different from our (SE Iberia) common P. dactyliferas (which are very abundant). It's solitary with no signs of clumping and very robust. The leaflets are very long (around 30cm), rigid and very glaucous.  Sadly it never gets pollinated much and when it does the fruit gets parasitized, so I have no idea on fruit and seed morphology. I would say it's probably a canariensis hybrid, but from what I know, it's older (16yrs) than when they planted canariensis in different parts of the village, and it's located in the historic palm grove, so I'm not really sure. Opinions?

A few pics:

[Ubuwuntu]

Important point to add:

This palm is spontaneous, it has been growing since before the field was cleared after a long time of being abandoned. The field before being cleared was full of young Phoenix from the surround Palm grove, all but this one and two other were cleared.

[JacoPalmsCo]

Pretty awesome.

[awkonradi]

Very nice.  Thanks for posting.

[Phoenikakias]

Are leaflet tips pungent? It reminds a lot a hybrid of dactylifera with theophrasti (but no suckers at all?)  or dactylifera or theophrasti with ... sylvestris! (but where the heck is a sylvestris nearby?) Do leaflets split at their tips? R U sure it is a female specimen?

Edited April 21, 2023 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

Are leaflet tips pungent? It reminds a lot a hybrid of dactylifera with theophrasti (but no suckers at all?)  or dactylifera or theophrasti with ... sylvestris! (but where the heck is a sylvestris nearby?) R U sure it is a female specimen?  The odds are for a CIDP hybrid, is it possible, that farmers used pollen of latter on their commercially grown date palms? That would explain a lot. Anyway, if leaflet tips split deeply, this is a strong indication for CIDP ancestry.

[Little Tex]

15 hours ago, Ubuwuntu said:

and it's located in the historic palm grove, so I'm not really sure.

Is this in Spain or Portugal?

[JacoPalmsCo]

Im not sure what your asking.

[Ubuwuntu]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Are leaflet tips pungent? It reminds a lot a hybrid of dactylifera with theophrasti (but no suckers at all?)  or dactylifera or theophrasti with ... sylvestris! (but where the heck is a sylvestris nearby?) Do leaflets split at their tips? R U sure it is a female specimen?

It really reminded me a lot of Theophrasti (like the amount of black on the base of the fronds and the acantophylls). I will check the leaflets in detail today, I remember some were splitting, but I passed it off as damaged tips from passing cars and such, I'll see if it's more consistent. Currently I've been treating in my notes as a hybrid between P. iberica (hence the similarity to theophrasti, and even sylvestris) and P. canariensis, I've discarded sylvestris because I've never seen a single specimen around here.

[Ubuwuntu]

38 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Is this in Spain or Portugal?

In Spain, about 20km South-west of Elche

Edited April 21, 2023 by Ubuwuntu

[Ubuwuntu]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

R U sure it is a female specimen?  

Yes, you can just see some female flowers in the first photo, and I've seen old infructecenses with a few dried up round, dark-maroon coloured, fruits with holes from Coccotrypes dactyliperda on them.

 

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

 The odds are for a CIDP hybrid, is it possible, that farmers used pollen of latter on their commercially grown date palms? That would explain a lot.

That would make sense, and canariensis is a very recent introduction so it might make sense that traditional local palm workers (there are none left sadly) might have indiscriminately used canariensis pollen from the newly planted palms to pollinate their local palms. Also, commercial production is a very recent development, most palms were for subsistence.

[Ubuwuntu]

4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

If leaflet tips split deeply, this is a strong indication for CIDP ancestry.

Leaflets consistently split, and in most cases nearly all the way down to the base.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Ubuwuntu said:

Leaflets consistently split, and in most cases nearly all the way down to the base.

Them case is imo solved

[dalmatiansoap]

Possible porphyrocarpa CIDP

[Ubuwuntu]

42 minutes ago, dalmatiansoap said:

Possible porphyrocarpa CIDP

I've never seen one in person but from what I know they're a lot more pure-canariensis like, this definitely seems to have hybrid characteristics. But it could well be the form of canariensis that this comes from. I doubt it though, they're mainly cited in ornamental gardens, this is in the middle of a dying historic palm grove.

[ruskinPalms]

There are lots of phoenix volunteer hybrids growing around here. I actually like this because there is a nasty pathogen around here carried by bug. They seem to make it. … cool these make it. These might be these palms you grow 10 years from now.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Ubuwuntu said:

I've never seen one in person but from what I know they're a lot more pure-canariensis like, this definitely seems to have hybrid characteristics. But it could well be the form of canariensis that this comes from. I doubt it though, they're mainly cited in ornamental gardens, this is in the middle of a dying historic palm grove.

My own porphyrocarpa, solitary habit, green, heavy leaves and distinguished through the super long inflorescences. Detail of its acanthophylls.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Phoenikakias

[ruskinPalms]

Phoenix around here hybridize with Pygmy date readily. Not sure what to say about it other than plenty of interesting Phoenix hybrids in the woods and ditches…

[ruskinPalms]

The hybrid feral palms around here totally 100% fine and growing.

[Ubuwuntu]

22 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

My own porphyrocarpa, solitary habit, green, heavy leaves and distinguished through the super long inflorescences. Detail of its acanthophylls.

Doesn't this seem very rupicola like? The long peduncle, the red-purple fruit, the slightly recurved leaves, etc. Maybe your porphyrocarpa is a canariensis x rupicola hybrid? I doubt the taxon of 'porphyrocarpa' is anything more than a combination of hybrids and individual mutations tbh.

[Phoenikakias]

1 minute ago, Ubuwuntu said:

Doesn't this seem very rupicola like? The long peduncle, the red-purple fruit, the slightly recurved leaves, etc. Maybe your porphyrocarpa is a canariensis x rupicola hybrid? I doubt the taxon of 'porphyrocarpa' is anything more than a combination of hybrids and individual mutations tbh.

In my case, fruits taste like dates, albeit with less flesh and stiffer outer layer.

[Phoenikakias]

11 hours ago, Ubuwuntu said:

Doesn't this seem very rupicola like? The long peduncle, the red-purple fruit, the slightly recurved leaves, etc. Maybe your porphyrocarpa is a canariensis x rupicola hybrid? I doubt the taxon of 'porphyrocarpa' is anything more than a combination of hybrids and individual mutations tbh.

I fear that posted pictures do not justice to the formidably thorny nature of the plant, so here is amore instructive picture. Also I can not see any recurving fronds. On the contrary one of the main features of (this kind of) porphyrocarpa are its super straight and super long fronds. With four such plants I could create canopy for understory palms without the disatvantage of root competition!  Imo this is  a the most crucial feature to tell apart a male specimen of this kind! Also it barely sets viable seeds, at least now that it has grown big. Dunno the reason, perhaps neighbor removes pretimely the male inflos of his CIDP's. But this is an evidence that even this dubious palm does not have synchronized blooming with dactylifera and theophrasti.

[Ubuwuntu]

12 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

I fear that posted pictures do not justice to the formidably thorny nature of the plant, so here is amore instructive picture. 

That is definitely very thorny, I'm seeing the canariensis a lot more now

 

13 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Also I can not see any recurving fronds. On the contrary one of the main features of (this kind of) porphyrocarpa are its super straight and super long fronds. With four such plants I could create canopy for understory palms without the disatvantage of root competition!  Imo this is  a the most crucial feature to tell apart a male specimen of this kind! 

It's probably the angle of the photo that made me think they were more recurved, and the canopy idea sound great! Could you tell me more about the male features and such? 

 

13 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

 Also it barely sets viable seeds, at least now that it has grown big. Dunno the reason, perhaps neighbor removes pretimely the male inflos of his CIDP's. But this is an evidence that even this dubious palm does not have synchronized blooming with dactylifera and theophrasti.

 

Curious, because on the Canary Islands their flowering times overlap enough for natural hybrids to be quite widespread

[AZ_Palm_Guy]

@Ubuwuntulooks very similar to a phoenix hybrid that I saw awhile ago. This one had one offshoot coming off of it and it was a male phoenix. Definitely dactylifera with either CIDP or Sylvestris.