Please - Pinnate Palm Identification Needed / Glasnevin, Dublin, IE

[IrishPalm22]

Stumbled upon this palm close to the Botanic Garden in Glasnevin Dublin and do not *think* it’s a Phoenix due to the weeping nature of some parts of the fronds. But maybe I am wrong. Can anyone help identify what species or hybrid this is with the polaroids I took? Go raibh maith agat.

[Foxpalms]

2 minutes ago, IrishPalm22 said:

Stumbled upon this palm close to the Botanic Garden in Glasnevin Dublin and do not *think* it’s a Phoenix due to the weeping nature of some parts of the fronds. But maybe I am wrong. Can anyone help identify what species or hybrid this is with the polaroids I took? Go raibh maith agat.

It looks like a stretched phoenix canariensis.

[Xerarch]

Each leaflet is attached to the rachis in a “V” shape with the open end of the V facing up, not down,  a hallmark of the Phoenix genus. 

[Xerarch]

1 minute ago, Xerarch said:

 

Oops duplicate 

[SeanK]

Certainly if it were a PHX, the petiole bases would have spines. Perhaps A.engleri, from Japan?

[tim_brissy_13]

3 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Certainly if it were a PHX, the petiole bases would have spines. Perhaps A.engleri, from Japan?

Photos show spines clearly. Definitely P canariensis. 

[SeanK]

9 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Photos show spines clearly. Definitely P canariensis. 

I don't see any in the photos, only leaflets. I think that IrishPalms22 would have called that out.

Edited April 23, 2023 by SeanK

[Alan_Tampa]

Looks Butia to me. Hybrid thereof. I don't see actual spines. 

[Pal Meir]

Yes, 100% Phoenix because of the V-shape.

3 hours ago, SeanK said:

Certainly if it were a PHX, the petiole bases would have spines. Perhaps A.engleri, from Japan?

Have you ever seen an Arenga engleri???

[SeanK]

1 minute ago, Pal Meir said:

Yes, 100% Phoenix because of the V-shape.

Have you ever seen an Arenga engleri???

Yup. St.Augustine, FL.

[sonoranfans]

If those "spines" fold easily at the bases it could have rupicola blood.  The rupicola leaves close to the trunk are curled up like that and the closer you go they become thorns, but foldable ones, not the kind that will pierce your skin like CIDP or most any other phoenix.  So if the original poster confirms thorns are foldable at the base I"d guess a rupicola hybrid perhaps.

[tim_brissy_13]

The spines are really just modified leaflets. I’d be careful about an ID based on how rigid or relaxed they are since Phoenix sp grown in shade or cooler climates often have more relaxed spines and leaflets. 

[JLM]

I am quite confused to say the least. No spines from what i can tell, and as the leaflets get closer to the trunk they only get skinnier. Those dont look like spines at all, just smaller leaflets. Its got to be some sort of butia hybrid, but even with that im confused because theres no purple coloration anywhere. 

We will need the poster to take a closer look, maybe with more detailed pictures if at all possible. 

[Merlyn]

@JLM yes I zoomed in like that too.  I don't see any spines, though I do see a couple of *possible* small teeth just below where the leaflets end.  But I'm not sure they are actually teeth.  It doesn't seem like any Phoenix.  The pointed leaflets rule out Arenga Engleri.  To be honest, my first thought was a super-stretched-out Ravenea Rivularis/Majesty Palm that outgrew the indoor pot?  But I don't think Majesty has hairs like that...so maybe a Butia of some sort?

[sonoranfans]

The fact that it takes the cold narrows things down a lot.  Its also unlikely a rare palm as all rare palms are less likely.  I see phoenix but it looks like no pure phoenix species I am aware of.  The engleri family have tattered or more blunt leaf tips.  Phoenix hybrids are not only common they are  often intentionally propagated by large nurseries.  Here in florida hybrids are (overwhelmingly) more common than pure species.  I still say that one is a hybrid but also young ones look different than adult ones.  My young rupicola triple had the curled leaves at that size with almost no spines.  At 12 years in the ground my rupicolas leaves closest to the trunk are thinner but not curled anymore and there are those flexible spines are more numerous.  Both CIDP and rupicola have flat planar leaves at maturity but not so flat on a juvenile, morphology can change between juvenile and adult.   Any F1 cross will have a number of morphological variants in the siblings.  

[SeanK]

One point to consider, what other palms are in the area. It may be that this palm was not planted; it's just a volunteer.

It may in-fact be a PHX. I was just offering an alternative.

Edited April 24, 2023 by SeanK

[ruskinPalms]

This is a tough one. I’m going to with some sort of mule palm. Something mixed with Butia. These mule palms can have tons of variation and would probably do well in that climate. The lack of spines really makes it hard for me to believe it is Phoenix. And if they found a Phoenix that has no spines, please sign me up for some seeds! 😁

[Patrick]

I'm voting for a Phoenix of some sort. 

[tim_brissy_13]

I don’t mean to put down any of the other suggestions, but for the benefit of the original post this is 100% a Phoenix.@Pal Meir’s observation of induplicate leaflets alone is enough to positively ID it as Phoenix. I’m 90+% confident on P canariensis or at the very least a hybrid with that species. Also keep in mind in that part of the world P canariensis is by far the most common and most suitable for the climate. 

[Foxpalms]

21 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I don’t mean to put down any of the other suggestions, but for the benefit of the original post this is 100% a Phoenix.@Pal Meir’s observation of induplicate leaflets alone is enough to positively ID it as Phoenix. I’m 90+% confident on P canariensis or at the very least a hybrid with that species. Also keep in mind in that part of the world P canariensis is by far the most common and most suitable for the climate. 

I agree. Likely a stretched phoenix canariensis with a low chance of it being a hybrid. If @IrishPalm22Can get a better/closer photo of the rachis on the other side of it, it will be easier to see whether the palm clearly has spines or not. As for the palms suggested it could be, whilst an arenga engleri probably could survive in Ireland it would be incredibly slow and I highly doubt you could purchase a large one in Ireland. It also looks nothing like that palm. It also looks nothing like a butia.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Foxpalms

[JLM]

I found the palm on google maps, didnt even take me 10 minutes using the pictures provided. Maybe seeing a younger version of the palm would help?

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.369636,-6.2692413,3a,75y,219.76h,82.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sA7jF_9YmVcIIBz5BTFssOw!2e0!5s20221101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Despite this, there are still some details that need to be confirmed from the original poster. At its younger stage it does look like a phoenix, but the droopy leaflets is confusing me. Its definitely a hybrid, but not sure what its mixed with. Also the fact that it has very small or no spines also throws me off. Doesnt most if not all phoenix have spines of some sort? Would a palm lose its spines from being grown in shade?

I also found this just down the street from the palm in question. It is clearly a phoenix, likely canariensis or sylvestris just based on the way it looks.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3688415,-6.2695973,3a,15y,257.56h,90.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSfdwVs9h0LEOMeRw-B_QRg!2e0!5s20221101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Both palms look different, although one probably has more sun than the other. 

[Merlyn]

11 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I don’t mean to put down any of the other suggestions, but for the benefit of the original post this is 100% a Phoenix.@Pal Meir’s observation of induplicate leaflets alone is enough to positively ID it as Phoenix. I’m 90+% confident on P canariensis or at the very least a hybrid with that species. Also keep in mind in that part of the world P canariensis is by far the most common and most suitable for the climate. 

Yeah, I went outside and looked at my Butia and Mule and they are definitely reduplicate, so not possibilities.  Dactylifera has very white insertion points in some photos, my Canariensis is more green/yellowish insertion.  So my confusion is...where's the brutal thorns?  If this is some kind of thornless Phoenix hybrid, I want one!!!! 

[ruskinPalms]

I concede. It is some sort of Phoenix 😄. I do wish the Phoenix species I’ve had over the years were “thorned” like this one 😆

[ruskinPalms]

I do bet that mule palms and all the other cool Jubaea, Parajubaea etc hybrids would do great there 😁

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

I do bet that mule palms and all the other cool Jubaea, Parajubaea etc hybrids would do great there 😁

There are some nice ones 200 miles south of Dublin in Cornwall, so I imagine those types of palms would probably do well there as well.