Trying Sabal Minor in the Four Corners region

[Desert DAC]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:06 PM, jwitt said:

 

Desert willow are not as large or numerous out your way as opposed to this way.

 

But hey, times are changing, and plants that bloom for quite some time in the hot season, with minimal watering, come into favor. 

Being deciduous is probably another drawback or hesitancy in it's past use in PHX.  My hunch. 

Your last hunch may be right on desert willows (formerly) being not as accepted in PHX.  Over 25 years ago, I spoke with some wholesale growers in Phoenix about various desert native trees worth a try in ABQ, notably Arid Zone Trees in Queen Creek. All agreed deciduous trees, even desert willow, were a hard sell where the PHX developers wanted evergreen for winter tourists, potential homebuyers, etc.  They each said Tucson was more open to deciduous trees, one adding how then ABQ wasn't accepting how it's in the desert. Yet today, desert willows are catching on rapidly in Phoenix and everywhere in the SW desert and even humid central / north Texas.

My guess is larger desert willows in ABQ vs. PHX is also a matter of younger age of their desert willows from less old plantings, as there are desert willows in Tucson that compete with sizes of those in ABQ or Las Cruces, El Paso, and Las Vegas NV.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

Over 20 years ago, I spoke with a couple wholesale growers in Phoenix, notably Arid Zone Trees in Queen Creek. All agreed deciduous trees, even desert willow, were a hard sell where the PHX developers wanted evergreen.  Both nurseries said Tucson was more open to deciduous trees. Yet today, desert willows are catching on rapidly in Phoenix and everywhere in the SW desert and even humid central / north Texas.

My guess is it's your statement about deciduous plus a matter of younger age of their desert willows, as there are desert willows in Tucson that compete with sizes of those in ABQ or Las Cruces, El Paso, and Las Vegas NV.

This has always made me laugh a bit since Chinese Pistache, which drop most or all their leaves, even if really late here  have been the latest " fad " tree  that some of the bigger nurseries have been over promoting.   They're nice no doubt, but i really question just how well they will tolerate potentially hotter summers here in the future.  Rare is encountering a specimen here as large and / or great looking as all the specimens  planted in the area of San Jose i grew up in back during the 80's and early 90s.

..That and  X Chilposis.. which is at least a better option climate-wise ...for anyone who didn't want a Desert Willow anyway.  ( Just plant a Desert Willow, lol )

Still see Ash being sold, which are dying right and left in many areas around town.

[Desert DAC]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:09 PM, Southwesternsol said:

They seem to barely manage here. But often they look kinda scraggly and crispy. I've mentioned a time or two before, but I really don't understand why they're planted down here. I don't hate em, but I'd rather see Junipers, Cypress', Mesquites, Desert Willows, Joshua Trees or any other of the wonderful trees we have in the desert southwest.

Looks like they or the landscape architects don't like native plants, and want to recreate a montane-Midwest mix, for that Jackson Hole-Des Moines vibe! Like some *still* do in ABQ. There's plenty of montane vegetation within miles of Palm Springs, too, on Mt San Jacinto. Keep trying, as logic eventually wins.

[Desert DAC]

On 4/30/2023 at 8:44 PM, Xerarch said:

Good luck with the minor, you should be ok depending on your elevation, I’ve seen a few Washingtonia filifera around Lake Powell, I suppose you’re probably a little higher up than that. 

Share where you see Washingtonia near Lake Powell - Page or Hite / Bullfrog? I have spotted a few mesquite and creosote bush that appear planted around Page, or nearby. Plus native mesquite at lower-elevation Lee's Ferry.

[jwitt]

17 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

Where do you know zone 5 desert willows in your locality, or even where there's zone 5 locally in ABQ?

I remember some shrubby Chilopsis in Denver, namely at their botanic gardens, which die back hard most years. (prob a bipolar z 5b-6a in central and western Denver, not 5) As well as "dwarf desert willows" I chuckled at in z 6a Boulder 30 years ago - probably dwarf without a long, hot summer with a 210 day growing season like where native in central NM in ABQ or Socorro. I do know the native Chilopsis stand SW of Santa Fe, which recovered nicely from the Feb 2011 uber-freeze.

Moriarty

[Desert DAC]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:14 PM, Southwesternsol said:

Yeah, looking at iNat Aculeata grows in southern Nevada, southern NM, and central/north east Texas making it a good candidate.

The SW NM Parkinsonia keys out to aculeata, which survives as a dieback large shrub in ABQ-Los Lunas (like desert willow in Denver). Common here in Las Cruces, as a dieback small tree.

Don't bother with any palo verdes in the four corners! P. microphylla drops out in warmer places than P. florida; Tucson and Winkleman for the former, but Safford and even near Benson, possibly San Simon for the latter. P. florida all froze and died at 0 to -5F in Las Cruces in Feb 2011, though those were in the colder area east of the Rio Grande. Those at the I-10 eastbound Texas rest area near Anthony were bothkilled and some froze to the ground in 2011; the latter came back as big shrubs, now small trees again. They are fast!

And - keep that Sabal minor regularly watered, and like they grow in nature, plant some overstory trees around them - they aren't open area plants.

[Desert DAC]

11 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Moriarty

Thanks. That's rather far from ABQ distance-wise and esp. ecologically, even from my last house in SE ABQ, but def. z 5. Impressive if those have been in the ground since 2011, don't die back, and are over 10 feet.

[Desert DAC]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

This has always made me laugh a bit since Chinese Pistache, which drop most or all their leaves, even if really late here  have been the latest " fad " tree  that some of the bigger nurseries have been over promoting.   They're nice no doubt, but i really question just how well they will tolerate potentially hotter summers here in the future.  Rare is encountering a specimen here as large and / or great looking as all the specimens  planted in the area of San Jose i grew up in back during the 80's and early 90s.

..That and  X Chilposis.. which is at least a better option climate-wise ...for anyone who didn't want a Desert Willow anyway.  ( Just plant a Desert Willow, lol )

Still see Ash being sold, which are dying right and left in many areas around town.

True - red push pistache were everywhere in PHX my visits recently. You've got a point if the urban heat island and a warming period or planet make it hard on ashes, pistaches, bradford pear, etc in your valley of the sun. 

For at least 15 years in ABQ, a big fad was aspens, partly due to desert-phobic customers seeing them on the back of a xeriscape publication in the 1990's...by 2000, trucks were selling aspens from flatbed and pickup trucks all around NE ABQ. If you bought so many, they would plant them for free! Big and cheap, from Idaho and Colorado. A nursery with moon in their name may be selling questionable plants to people who but in Tucson then truck them back to Las Cruces, including bismarckia and pygmy date palms, saguaros. Unless it's someone else, though I doubt anyone here is silly enough to sell those. 

LAs and especially municipalities still heavily use RAYWOOD, Arizona, and Modesto ashes in NM and El Paso, hybrid elms, or chitalpa. The ashes are all likely to get hit with emerald ash borer, known for over a decade, which attacks stressed trees without enough water. The latter gets a bacterial leaf scorch and needs deep, regular water, yet I see nice chitalpas in Las Vegas where I know the soil is sandy.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Desert DAC

[Silas_Sancona]

20 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

True - red push pistache were everywhere in PHX my visits recently. You've got a point if the urban heat island and a warming period or planet make it hard on ashes, pistaches, bradford pear, etc in your valley of the sun. 

For at least 15 years in ABQ, a big fad was aspens, partly due to desert-phobic customers seeing them on the back of a xeriscape publication in the 1990's...by 2000, trucks were selling aspens from flatbed and pickup trucks all around NE ABQ. If you bought so many, they would plant them for free! Big and cheap, from Idaho and Colorado. A nursery with moon in their name may be selling questionable plants to people who truck them back here in Las Cruces, including bismarckia and pygmy date palms, saguaros. Unless it's someone else, though I doubt anyone here is silly enough to sell those. 

LAs and especially municipalities still heavily use RAYWOOD, Arizona, and Modesto ashes in NM and El Paso, hybrid elms, or chitalpa. The ashes are all likely to get hit with emerald ash borer, known for over a decade, which attacks stressed trees without enough water. The latter gets a bacterial leaf scorch and needs deep, regular water, yet I see nice chitalpas in Las Vegas where I know the soil is sandy.

I haven't noticed any heat / drought related issues w/ the Pistache i see around town -yet, but that doesn't mean they aren't being stressed ..in more situations than not anyway,  esp. after this summer.

In all honesty, nurseries here should be looking at trees growing in Hermosillo / natives from that part of Sonora for future city tree options, rather than those from the Mediterranean or Aus.  Great options from both areas of course, but, native / native near by should be the bigger focus. My own opinion on that of course. 

I've seen a few Bradfords, and -in most cases anyway- .. the.. " they looked awful... " observations i made   is a big understatement, lol  Heck, majority looked bad in many neighborhoods back in  San Jose.

..Sounds exactly like Moon's M.O., lol.. I found it funny that they could attract business, yet, i lost count of how many clients came into a nursery i'd worked for with nothing but bad experiences w/ them.   Big Box stores are notorious for selling questionable tree / plant  options too, but, ...that's a big box for you.  

Not sure who is countering such bad nursery options there but ..at least in Tucson / down that way,  there are a few nurseries vocally presenting ..better options / advise to anyone who will listen, ..and people are listening.

See Elms, ..not sure exactly which type.. here, though mainly near Golf Courses / some parks.  Seem to do ok i guess, but another tree i can't imagine thriving in a hotter " Valley of the Sun " ..or even Tucson -in time anyway-.

Chitalpa ( i know i wrote Chilopsis in my last reply ) actually do pretty good here. Several neighborhoods near where i'm at here in Chandler have used them and they've handled the heat / dry ..everything.. pretty well so far.

Raywood, and Modesto Ash were fairly common in San Jose as well, and would suffer leaf scorch each summer / fall,  esp. after a dry winter / hotter summer.  Noticing them disappearing from various neighborhoods i grew up in though.  Evergreen Ash would be a great tree ( out there ) if it didn't get as massive as it does, let alone drop pounds of seeds that all want to sprout -everywhere-,  lol.

As far as Phoenix area Desert Willow size is concerned, next time you're in the area (If you haven't already ) take a look at specimens over at Veteran's Oasis Park here in Chandler..  Can't say whether or not they're bigger than specimens out your way,  but,.. some contenders  -at the very least.

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, Desert DAC said:

Thanks. That's rather far from ABQ distance-wise and esp. ecologically, even from my last house in SE ABQ, but def. z 5. Impressive if those have been in the ground since 2011, don't die back, and are over 10 feet.

Metro ABQ

Moriarty is about the same distance (25 miles)to Tramway/I40 as SE(closest part) Rio Rancho.  All other parts of Rio Rancho are further.  Timewise,  Moriarty is usually (much)shorter. 

Zones of difference tho with a lot of ABQ type plantings/trials.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by jwitt
Plantings

[Xerarch]

19 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

Share where you see Washingtonia near Lake Powell - Page or Hite / Bullfrog? I have spotted a few mesquite and creosote bush that appear planted around Page, or nearby. Plus native mesquite at lower-elevation Lee's Ferry.

These are at the resort at Wahweap, I know I’ve seen others in the area but can’t pinpoint. I also seem to remember some at Bullfrog many years ago, but wasn’t able to find any from Google Earth right now.  If they live at Wahweap they should be able to live virtually anywhere near lake level. 

[Alex High]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:24 PM, Xerarch said:

These are at the resort at Wahweap, I know I’ve seen others in the area but can’t pinpoint. I also seem to remember some at Bullfrog many years ago, but wasn’t able to find any from Google Earth right now.  If they live at Wahweap they should be able to live virtually anywhere near lake level. 

They look great, beautiful palms! Here are some others I've seen/heard about/found around the Page area:

A tall robusta, surprising to see for that area!

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9130472,-111.4489092,3a,46.7y,336.64h,100.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMf2AU5tHY7_8-zaUQtUTNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

A number of Washys planted at a gas station right next to the AZ-UT line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9945238,-111.5650233,3a,15y,30.13h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHkevlntX5Up66p-JX2Oh1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

In a new development:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/562-N-Rainbow-Dr-Lot-U3L33_Greenehaven_AZ_86040_M11031-91049

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9955263,-111.5506528,109m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

[SeanK]

8 hours ago, Alex High said:

They look great, beautiful palms! Here are some others I've seen/heard about/found around the Page area:

A tall robusta, surprising to see for that area!

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9130472,-111.4489092,3a,46.7y,336.64h,100.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMf2AU5tHY7_8-zaUQtUTNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

A number of Washys planted at a gas station right next to the AZ-UT line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9945238,-111.5650233,3a,15y,30.13h,87.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHkevlntX5Up66p-JX2Oh1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

In a new development:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/562-N-Rainbow-Dr-Lot-U3L33_Greenehaven_AZ_86040_M11031-91049

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9955263,-111.5506528,109m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

$60K for 3/10 acre of desert scrub seems a bit high.

[Southwesternsol]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:28 PM, Desert DAC said:

Looks like they or the landscape architects don't like native plants, and want to recreate a montane-Midwest mix, for that Jackson Hole-Des Moines vibe! Like some *still* do in ABQ. There's plenty of montane vegetation within miles of Palm Springs, too, on Mt San Jacinto. Keep trying, as logic eventually wins.

Yeah, it does seem a lot of people want to pretend we don't live in an arid climate. My hope is that if Sabal Minor does well here, I can use it as a selling point for native landscaping. Get rid of that half dead Aspen, and replace it with a garden bed of cactus, yuccas, agaves, desert shrubs, four o' clocks, penstamons, a desert willow and a couple Sabals as an accent.

That being said, I'll tolerate the aspens and spruces as they are semi-native, they're just not ideal in these warmer climates (Although blue spruce actually seems to tolerate the conditions here fairly well). The Siberian Elms, Russian Olives, and Salt Cedars are the real problem though.

[scarecrow]

3 hours ago, Southwesternsol said:

My hope is that if Sabal Minor does well here, I can use it as a selling point for native landscaping.

Sabal minor is not native to Colorado, Utah, Arizona or New Mexico.

Edited October 5, 2023 by scarecrow

[jwitt]

13 hours ago, SeanK said:

$60K for 3/10 acre of desert scrub seems a bit high.

Million dollar views!

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Million dollar views!

Even better  ...even if just an 8b location:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Camino-Hidalgo-109-Rio-Rico-AZ-85648/2064280908_zpid/


Another, in 9B near Florence ( AZ )

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/25931-E-Diversion-Dam-Rd-6-Florence-AZ-85132/2055135470_zpid/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwitt]

12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Even better  ...even if just an 8b location:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Camino-Hidalgo-109-Rio-Rico-AZ-85648/2064280908_zpid/


Another, in 9B near Florence ( AZ )

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/25931-E-Diversion-Dam-Rd-6-Florence-AZ-85132/2055135470_zpid/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my personal opinion the views do not compare to the lake Powell ones, nor do the houses.  

But the prices are much better. 

Personally that Rio Rico area and east is very special, if you know, you know!

SE AZ rocks!

 

[Southwesternsol]

18 hours ago, scarecrow said:

Sabal minor is not native to Colorado, Utah, Arizona or New Mexico.

Of course, I'm not an idiot. But it's the closest to a native shrubby palm. My philosophy is if you're thinking planting non-native, you should ask yourself what does this plant have that we don't have. In many cases, there is likely something native in your region that has the same or similar qualities. I could plant Norwegian Spruce, or I could plant on of the many conifers native to the arid regions of the southwest. If I wanted shade I could plant a Siberian Elm, or I could plant some mesquite or a cottonwood.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

In my personal opinion the views do not compare to the lake Powell ones, nor do the houses.  

But the prices are much better. 

Personally that Rio Rico area and east is very special, if you know, you know!

SE AZ rocks!

 

Lake Powell area is nice, but  i wonder how great the current views will be ..if... ( ..or when ) Powell is drained /  greatly reduced ...since that possibility is actively being studied / discussed again.  Regardless of it that actually occurs,  at least it is a zone 8 area, that will likely grow warmer over the coming decades. You're also right next to another amazing area of the region, S. Utah.

Same  personal thought  regarding future zone trends in S. E. AZ.  Have a gut feeling many areas currently painted zone 8 won't be holding onto that much longer..  Doesn't get one to " able to grow 10B stuff " status of course, There at least,  but, ..can see some interesting landscapes appearing in the future.   Regardless, ..

Of all the areas i've visited since living here, that section of the state ..Tucson to ..roughly... Rio Rico / Nogales,  east to ..about.. Sierra Vista are the areas i like the most personally..  Sonoita / Patagonia are stunning, especially after a wet summer..  Love the Saguaro - filled parts of the state up this way,  but ..that part of the state is simply amazing.  BTW, another ..potentially new to the area  Jaguar was recorded in the Huachucas last March.

I will add that, after talking w/ someone who moved from Chandler down to the general Patagonia area,  they mentioned how  while most of the year down there is pretty good,  late winter / early spring can be quite breezy / windy at times  and how it can add some bite to colder nights.  Though warmer of course, his description reminded me of growing up in San Jose since there is often a period between say late Feb. and April where chilly breezes can blow south down the Santa Clara Valley off S.F. Bay at times, which can ruin a warm spring day. 

Foothill-ish Areas between Tucson and Superior would be my second most admired area of AZ explored thus far..  Good amount of that area is currently painted 9B.



Veering off on a side note a little more, looking around AZ inspired me to do some " window shopping" around San Diego County / areas nearby that are fairly solid 9B-10B,  just to see how things are looking out there currently.  Still plenty of reasonable -by S. Cal / CA. standards-, land listings out there too. I personally wouldn't rule out a spot sitting right on the " current " 9A /9B line either ( Ramona, Valley Center, Pauma Valley .. or areas in the Inland Empire, ...say around Hemet / Valle Vista / San Jacinto, etc ).  10-20 acres might be a bit $$$, but, i'd be more than happy with just an acre ..or 3.

For anyone who would say " but building something would be expensive out there, even wayy outside of town " ..my answer is the same mentioned somewhere else.. Everywhere is getting expensive, for the moment at least. 

To keep expenses low,  keep your " ideal " home small / simple.. no 2nd story ( why anyone wants a house with stairs i'll never fully understand. Just me though )  and Under 2-2.5K SqFt, ...A massive 3-5K sized house is something else i've never understood, i mean, no one likes cleaning.

3D printing ( of homes ) and other, non - stick built, more progressive home building technology is quickly evolving,  same with Solar.. all of which will ( hopefully ) greatly lower building costs

..In Fire prone areas of CA / the west,  add some reinforcement / thicker exterior and interior, load bearing walls, ..and a metal roof, and you've just made your home more fire and / or earthquake resistant, thus, less insurance costs ( ..should be anyway honestly )..

I know it isn't quite that simple, but, building a " dream " home / fixing up one falling down doesn't need to be drain - your- savings complicated either.  I want the land, more than some " dressed to impress others " home sitting on it.

Anyway... veering back to the subject discussion..

[jwitt]

Visually stunning in my mind with or without the water. But that water would assuredly allow sabal minor to succeed just like they do in the Bosque of Albuquerque in places. 

Back on track!

[Southwesternsol]

Very early for a winter report, but we have had some unusually cold weather. Was suspposed to get a below 10 for a few nights, so I threw a couple frost blanklets over it for a few days, but the coldest night only dipped to 9 degrees. Still, days were kinda chilly with a few topping out in the upper 30s, along with some snow. Otherwise, the weather has been in the mid 40s with nights in the mid teens, more typical of January than November. So far, very minimal cold stress or damage.

[L.A.M.]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:44 PM, Southwesternsol said:

Very early for a winter report, but we have had some unusually cold weather. Was suspposed to get a below 10 for a few nights, so I threw a couple frost blanklets over it for a few days, but the coldest night only dipped to 9 degrees. Still, days were kinda chilly with a few topping out in the upper 30s, along with some snow. Otherwise, the weather has been in the mid 40s with nights in the mid teens, more typical of January than November. So far, very minimal cold stress or damage.

Well, good luck. You covered it, yet there's still slight damage?! At nine?! That doesn't happen here in Tennessee even if it gets to low single digits and they're uncovered. Perhaps the dry cold is harder on a humid-climate plant? After all, the Colorado Plateau is mostly desert, and Tennessee is mostly rainforest.

I agree with whoever suggested trying to find some sort of overstory desert tree to shade it. The sun heats the ground, which heats the air above it, which can evaporate water. Plus, dwarf palmettos are naturally an understory jungle/swamp plant rather than native to open areas; the most "open" habitats they commonly grow wild in are drainage ditches, river banks and pine savannas, all of which still tend to get partial shade in the southeast.

[Southwesternsol]

9 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

Well, good luck. You covered it, yet there's still slight damage?! At nine?! That doesn't happen here in Tennessee even if it gets to low single digits and they're uncovered. Perhaps the dry cold is harder on a humid-climate plant? After all, the Colorado Plateau is mostly desert, and Tennessee is mostly rainforest.

I agree with whoever suggested trying to find some sort of overstory desert tree to shade it. The sun heats the ground, which heats the air above it, which can evaporate water. Plus, dwarf palmettos are naturally an understory jungle/swamp plant rather than native to open areas; the most "open" habitats they commonly grow wild in are drainage ditches, river banks and pine savannas, all of which still tend to get partial shade in the southeast.

Windchill was around 0, so there may have been some desiccation. Keep in mind, we also get nights into the teens way more than somewhere like Tennesse. So while some nights into the single digits or teens here and there should be no problem for S. Minor, it could be a bit much here. That being said, so far it's still doing fine, and the only "damage" is some very minor leaf spotting and maby some slight browing on a couple of the tips. Some of that browing also occured in the summer though, since it's so high and dry here and it was freshly planted it seemed to get a little stressed. So we'll see, if it's looking healthy come February then we should be in the clear.

As for shade, it's exposed right now because my garden is still quite young. I've got various other native plants around it but I only moved into this property 2020, and I've been fighting inavsive weeds and trying to clean up the yard.

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, Southwesternsol said:

Windchill was around 0, so there may have been some desiccation. Keep in mind, we also get nights into the teens way more than somewhere like Tennesse. So while some nights into the single digits or teens here and there should be no problem for S. Minor, it could be a bit much here. That being said, so far it's still doing fine, and the only "damage" is some very minor leaf spotting and maby some slight browing on a couple of the tips. Some of that browing also occured in the summer though, since it's so high and dry here and it was freshly planted it seemed to get a little stressed. So we'll see, if it's looking healthy come February then we should be in the clear.

As for shade, it's exposed right now because my garden is still quite young. I've got various other native plants around it but I only moved into this property 2020, and I've been fighting inavsive weeds and trying to clean up the yard.

  You had much snow up that way yet?  ..Doesn't seem like it on the maps, but, hard to peek over the rim to get a good look from here, lol.  If your area follows what has been suggested for the immediate 4 corners area, can see it has gotten pretty cold ..though maybe not unusually so??  up that way this month though.

[Southwesternsol]

Just now, Silas_Sancona said:

  You had much snow up that way yet?  ..Doesn't seem like it on the maps, but, hard to peek over the rim to get a good look from here, lol.  If your area follows what has been suggested for the immediate 4 corners area, can see it has gotten pretty cold ..though maybe not unusually so??  up that way this month though.

No, just a couple light dustings. Surprisingly Abq has gotten more than we have and they don't even usally get much. In late November we had some below average weather, but nothing crazy. Since December it's actually been on the higher end of average especially the nights.

I should also note, I live at the bottom of a hill on the north side of my city, and my garden is on the east side of my house. The nights are probably a little colder in my yard than at the weather station.

[Desert DAC]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:17 PM, Southwesternsol said:

Of course, I'm not an idiot. But it's the closest to a native shrubby palm. My philosophy is if you're thinking planting non-native, you should ask yourself what does this plant have that we don't have. In many cases, there is likely something native in your region that has the same or similar qualities. I could plant Norwegian Spruce, or I could plant on of the many conifers native to the arid regions of the southwest. If I wanted shade I could plant a Siberian Elm, or I could plant some mesquite or a cottonwood.

I knew what you were saying, and if life and climate zones are considered, the lower elevations of the Four Corners with extreme and average temperatures are more like the upper range of Sabal minor than where aspens and blue spruces occur in the wild. Though to find something native like a shrubby palm, requiring less water or humidity / shelter from the sun and dry winds it would be one of the high desert yuccas, Nolina macrocarpa and N. greenei, and so on.

[Desert DAC]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:58 AM, L.A.M. said:

Perhaps the dry cold is harder on a humid-climate plant? After all, the Colorado Plateau is mostly desert, and Tennessee is mostly rainforest.

I agree with whoever suggested trying to find some sort of overstory desert tree to shade it. 

Great points, as would be the duration of temperatures below 32F.

[Desert DAC]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:49 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Lake Powell area is nice, but  i wonder how great the current views will be ..if... ( ..or when ) Powell is drained /  greatly reduced ...since that possibility is actively being studied / discussed again.  Regardless of it that actually occurs,  at least it is a zone 8 area, that will likely grow warmer over the coming decades. You're also right next to another amazing area of the region, S. Utah.

Same  personal thought  regarding future zone trends in S. E. AZ.  Have a gut feeling many areas currently painted zone 8 won't be holding onto that much longer..  Doesn't get one to " able to grow 10B stuff " status of course, There at least,  but, ..can see some interesting landscapes appearing in the future.   Regardless, ..

Of all the areas i've visited since living here, that section of the state ..Tucson to ..roughly... Rio Rico / Nogales,  east to ..about.. Sierra Vista are the areas i like the most personally..  Sonoita / Patagonia are stunning, especially after a wet summer..  Love the Saguaro - filled parts of the state up this way,  but ..that part of the state is simply amazing.  BTW, another ..potentially new to the area  Jaguar was recorded in the Huachucas last March.

I will add that, after talking w/ someone who moved from Chandler down to the general Patagonia area,  they mentioned how  while most of the year down there is pretty good,  late winter / early spring can be quite breezy / windy at times  and how it can add some bite to colder nights.  Though warmer of course, his description reminded me of growing up in San Jose since there is often a period between say late Feb. and April where chilly breezes can blow south down the Santa Clara Valley off S.F. Bay at times, which can ruin a warm spring day. 

Foothill-ish Areas between Tucson and Superior would be my second most admired area of AZ explored thus far..  Good amount of that area is currently painted 9B.
Anyway... veering back to the subject discussion..

Most of the US has become California in pricing, but not always with the quality of life much of it at least had in 1990-ish. My zone 8b in southern NM is fine to live in, and for more variety, El Paso is under an hour south, ABQ 3 hours north (but zone 7a-8a, where most live west of the Sandias), and Tucson under 4 hours west (but brutal summers).

Added to your Sierra Vista, Sonoita, etc... Payson and Prescott get more rain than ABQ, but they are milder in summer and often in winter, so that seems good though expensive and under weekend and holiday visitor assaults. Silver City is also more expensive and slightly drier, not as touristy, yet. 

The revised USDA cold hardiness zones map will be good to discuss at some point. Most of it is better, though some misses, too. But first this is yesterday's view of a new planting I mentioned last summer:

If you don't get Phoenix summers, don't expect Phoenix winters. They certainly have the paving heat sink some believe will help, but I doubt even a 15-foot-tall wall on the north would help much or for long.

All above is one of a few, each with major freeze damage: Bismarckia, pygmy date, and queen palms. The exaggeration of cold north of some magic line (like arid / warm-temperate ABQ seeing boreal plants, Japanese maples, etc. struggle) and exaggerating warmth south of the same magic line (like arid / warm-temperate Las Cruces seeing tenderer subtropical plants croak) is pure perception without logic. 

Of course, there is little to no damage to the Washingtonia filifera there or to several other Washies near the river to the south on the same road.

We've had a mild winter so far, with only few hard freezes, several more light freezes, and that spot's probable low of 18F two weeks ago. Without researching on 3-4 decades of annual lows north of town, my guess from daily reading nearby, is this valley location is cooler than my part of town, a zone 8a.

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

Most of the US has become California in pricing, but not always with the quality of life much of it at least had in 1990-ish. My zone 8b in southern NM is fine to live in, and for more variety, El Paso is under an hour south, ABQ 3 hours north (but zone 7a-8a, where most live west of the Sandias), and Tucson under 4 hours west (but brutal summers).

Added to your Sierra Vista, Sonoita, etc... Payson and Prescott get more rain than ABQ, but they are milder in summer and often in winter, so that seems good though expensive and under weekend and holiday visitor assaults. Silver City is also more expensive and slightly drier, not as touristy, yet. 

The revised USDA cold hardiness zones map will be good to discuss at some point. Most of it is better, though some misses, too. But first this is yesterday's view of a new planting I mentioned last summer:

If you don't get Phoenix summers, don't expect Phoenix winters. They certainly have the paving heat sink some believe will help, but I doubt even a 15-foot-tall wall on the north would help much or for long.

All above is one of a few, each with major freeze damage: Bismarckia, pygmy date, and queen palms. The exaggeration of cold north of some magic line (like arid / warm-temperate ABQ seeing boreal plants, Japanese maples, etc. struggle) and exaggerating warmth south of the same magic line (like arid / warm-temperate Las Cruces seeing tenderer subtropical plants croak) is pure perception without logic. 

Of course, there is little to no damage to the Washingtonia filifera there or to several other Washies near the river to the south on the same road.

We've had a mild winter so far, with only few hard freezes, several more light freezes, and that spot's probable low of 18F two weeks ago. Without researching on 3-4 decades of annual lows north of town, my guess from daily reading nearby, is this valley location is cooler than my part of town, a zone 8a.

That's there in L.C.? ..Ouch 😬 Hopefully ..at least the Pygmy(s) will bounce back, to some deg. at least. ..  Yard definitely could use a bunch of big, canopy creating trees, imo..

Not sure why, but never really had an interest in ..even exploring areas like Prescot / Sedona, or Payson / Pretty much anything north of the valley.. ( Sane thing back home in CA.. Rare that i ventured anywhere north of a line from about Half Moon Bay to Yosemite ) Pretty country up on the Rim for sure,  but, it's the central borderlands region of the state ..Roughly east of Hwy 19 / to roughly west of the San Pedro River that has my undivided attention.  Areas west or east of there are interesting too of course, but, ..just something about that part of the state.

Nothing much of note on this side of the White Mountains either Wx -wise.. A couple nights as low as the mid / upper 30s, but mainly 40s. Mild / warm otherwise.  Far cry so far compared to last year. May be back to 70F as the week, and year ends.

We'll see how Jan. goes.

[Gator]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:31 PM, Desert DAC said:

Share where you see Washingtonia near Lake Powell - Page or Hite / Bullfrog? I have spotted a few mesquite and creosote bush that appear planted around Page, or nearby. Plus native mesquite at lower-elevation Lee's Ferry.

This is from Ticaboo.... just up from Bullfrog   I saw it the last time i went to Powell 

Zoom in between the boat and the red SUV.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6723292,-110.6944791,3a,90y,346.21h,85.59t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipO8vdbf5LzxivuoDYD4uG-uZDICezFdYpwUUfB_!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipO8vdbf5LzxivuoDYD4uG-uZDICezFdYpwUUfB_%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-4.604965-ya78.84371-ro-2.651083-fo100!7i7680!8i3840?entry=ttu

[RFun]

The Sabal minors do ok in the Pacific Northwest areas like Portland, Seattle and Vancouver.  But they are going to need to be watered in the Summer dry season.  For the Four Corners Region (Farmington area), you'll have to do more of the same.  Give them enough water, they already will get plenty of heat there.  Winters shouldn't typically be too harsh for them.  They are easy to protect with burlap wrapping, etc., if you get a harsh cold snap or prolonged period under freezing.

Edited December 28, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:31 PM, Desert DAC said:

Share where you see Washingtonia near Lake Powell - Page or Hite / Bullfrog? I have spotted a few mesquite and creosote bush that appear planted around Page, or nearby. Plus native mesquite at lower-elevation Lee's Ferry.

I've also seen some Filiferas near the Utah-Arizona border at a gas station.  I believe this was about halfway between Page and St. George.

[Southwesternsol]

Well I'll be damned. We had a pretty shitty January, so I wrapped it up for the rest of the month. Since we're past the worst of it, and coming back up into the 50s and 60s I unwrapped it expecting a disaster. And while there is definitely some damage, it's alive. The bent fronds are from the frost blankets. I think it should recover well this spring and summer.  Protection was two frost blankets and a couple foam cuttings, which I honestly doubt made a massive difference. 

Weather station is reporting that it got down to -5, and I believe my yard may have colder nights than the weather station. Highs hovered around freezing for several days which unusual here. I would guess the frost blankets probably helped most during the day. I don't think they'd do much for below zero temps.

 

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Southwesternsol said:

Well I'll be damned. We had a pretty shitty January, so I wrapped it up for the rest of the month. Since we're past the worst of it, and coming back up into the 50s and 60s I unwrapped it expecting a disaster. And while there is definitely some damage, it's alive. The bent fronds are from the frost blankets. I think it should recover well this spring and summer.  Protection was two frost blankets and a couple foam cuttings, which I honestly doubt made a massive difference. 

Weather station is reporting that it got down to -5, and I believe my yard may have colder nights than the weather station. Highs hovered around freezing for several days which unusual here. I would guess the frost blankets probably helped most during the day. I don't think they'd do much for below zero temps.

 

Your daytime highs were better than mine.  I got to -6F and most of mine look real good as well, all unprotected

Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.

Date	Temperature				HDD	CDD	Precipitation	New Snow	Snow Depth
	Maximum	Minimum	Average	Departure
Sum	1339	708	-	-	919	0	6.53	8.3	-
Average	44.6	23.6	34.1	-3.6	-	-	-	-	4.5
Normal	47.9	27.5	37.7	-	820	0	4.50	0.8	-
Above Normals represent the month through 2024-01-30.
2024-01-01	59	30	44.5	6.1	20	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-02	37	32	34.5	-3.8	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-03	45	20	32.5	-5.6	32	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-04	37	22	29.5	-8.5	35	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-05	45	18	31.5	-6.4	33	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-06	50	22	36.0	-1.8	29	0	0.41	M	M
2024-01-07	44	38	41.0	3.3	24	0	0.10	M	M
2024-01-08	45	25	35.0	-2.7	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-09	53	26	39.5	1.9	25	0	1.40	M	M
2024-01-10	52	34	43.0	5.5	22	0	0.10	M	M
2024-01-11	46	33	39.5	2.0	25	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-12	57	29	43.0	5.6	22	0	0.31	M	M
2024-01-13	59	27	43.0	5.6	22	0	0.64	M	M
2024-01-14	59	24	41.5	4.2	23	0	0.01	M	M
2024-01-15	31	12	21.5	-15.8	43	0	0.28	3.8	4
2024-01-16	14	7	10.5	-26.8	54	0	M	4.5	5
2024-01-17	17	-11	3.0	-34.3	62	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-18	25	-9	8.0	-29.3	57	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-19	36	14	25.0	-12.3	40	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-20	28	5	16.5	-20.9	48	0	0.15	M	M
2024-01-21	28	-1	13.5	-23.9	51	0	0.25	M	M
2024-01-22	34	2	18.0	-19.5	47	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-23	50	19	34.5	-3.0	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-24	58	49	53.5	15.9	11	0	0.25	M	M
2024-01-25	59	55	57.0	19.3	8	0	1.30	M	M
2024-01-26	64	46	55.0	17.2	10	0	0.54	M	M
2024-01-27	63	45	54.0	16.1	11	0	0.15	M	M
2024-01-28	64	38	51.0	13.0	14	0	0.60	M	M
2024-01-29	42	33	37.5	-0.6	27	0	0.04	M	M
2024-01-30	38	24	31.0	-7.3	34	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-31	M	M	M	M	M	M	M	M	M

 

Edited January 30 by Allen

[Southwesternsol]

41 minutes ago, Allen said:

Your daytime highs were better than mine.  I got to -6F and most of mine look real good as well, all unprotected

Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.

Date	Temperature				HDD	CDD	Precipitation	New Snow	Snow Depth
	Maximum	Minimum	Average	Departure
Sum	1339	708	-	-	919	0	6.53	8.3	-
Average	44.6	23.6	34.1	-3.6	-	-	-	-	4.5
Normal	47.9	27.5	37.7	-	820	0	4.50	0.8	-
Above Normals represent the month through 2024-01-30.
2024-01-01	59	30	44.5	6.1	20	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-02	37	32	34.5	-3.8	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-03	45	20	32.5	-5.6	32	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-04	37	22	29.5	-8.5	35	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-05	45	18	31.5	-6.4	33	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-06	50	22	36.0	-1.8	29	0	0.41	M	M
2024-01-07	44	38	41.0	3.3	24	0	0.10	M	M
2024-01-08	45	25	35.0	-2.7	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-09	53	26	39.5	1.9	25	0	1.40	M	M
2024-01-10	52	34	43.0	5.5	22	0	0.10	M	M
2024-01-11	46	33	39.5	2.0	25	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-12	57	29	43.0	5.6	22	0	0.31	M	M
2024-01-13	59	27	43.0	5.6	22	0	0.64	M	M
2024-01-14	59	24	41.5	4.2	23	0	0.01	M	M
2024-01-15	31	12	21.5	-15.8	43	0	0.28	3.8	4
2024-01-16	14	7	10.5	-26.8	54	0	M	4.5	5
2024-01-17	17	-11	3.0	-34.3	62	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-18	25	-9	8.0	-29.3	57	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-19	36	14	25.0	-12.3	40	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-20	28	5	16.5	-20.9	48	0	0.15	M	M
2024-01-21	28	-1	13.5	-23.9	51	0	0.25	M	M
2024-01-22	34	2	18.0	-19.5	47	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-23	50	19	34.5	-3.0	30	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-24	58	49	53.5	15.9	11	0	0.25	M	M
2024-01-25	59	55	57.0	19.3	8	0	1.30	M	M
2024-01-26	64	46	55.0	17.2	10	0	0.54	M	M
2024-01-27	63	45	54.0	16.1	11	0	0.15	M	M
2024-01-28	64	38	51.0	13.0	14	0	0.60	M	M
2024-01-29	42	33	37.5	-0.6	27	0	0.04	M	M
2024-01-30	38	24	31.0	-7.3	34	0	0.00	M	M
2024-01-31	M	M	M	M	M	M	M	M	M

Yeah, one benefit of the the high desert is days are almost always above freezing even after particularly cold nights. January was the longest period of daytime temps that low I can recall in recent memory. Your Sabals look quit well quite nice for having seen below zero temps on top of below freezing days. Mine has some blemishes and cold spots, and a few burned spots.

Edited January 30 by Southwesternsol

[Southwesternsol]

Spring time update; not looking too hot. The outer fronds deteriorated over the course of a few months, I cut them back and then the inner fronds started browning up too. Though they seemed to have stopped. However, the middle frond may be growing. Hard to tell right now. We'll see if it makes a recovery this summer.

Otherwise, got a bunch more native stuff planted. Sonoran live oak, Western Sand Cherry, several types of Sagebrush, Snakeweed, Rock Spirea, Joshua tree, Faxon Tree Yucca, a variety of different Oputias, Mexican Cliffrose and a few others. 

[SeanK]

I'd give the S.minor a few doses of H2O2 in the bud and keep it well watered over the summer.

[Southwesternsol]

26 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'd give the S.minor a few doses of H2O2 in the bud and keep it well watered over the summer.

I've never heard of doing that, what would the peroxide be for?

[SeanK]

6 hours ago, Southwesternsol said:

I've never heard of doing that, what would the peroxide be for?

In case of fungal infection