Coffea arabica pot size

[Than]

I have a coffee plant in a pot. Surprisingly it survived the winter without even losing its leaves although it saw temperatures of 1C! 

Now my question is how big a pot does it need? Should I repot it? I am attaching a photo.

 

[aabell]

Looks like you have about 12 seedlings there, if you are interested in growing it long term the first thing I would do is get it down one. Pot is big enough for a single stem for now, only upgrade when it's rootbound. Right now they are competing with each other. 

[Than]

4 hours ago, aabell said:

Looks like you have about 12 seedlings there, if you are interested in growing it long term the first thing I would do is get it down one. Pot is big enough for a single stem for now, only upgrade when it's rootbound. Right now they are competing with each other. 

oh dear, I never realized it's more than one! Thank you. Do you know if coffea is too sensitive to repotting maybe?

[Silas_Sancona]

10 hours ago, ego said:

oh dear, I never realized it's more than one! Thank you. Do you know if coffea is too sensitive to repotting maybe?

You should be able to separate and repot reasonably easily ..if you are careful about separating the seedlings.. 

To do this w/ the least amount of potential stress on the plants while separating, dunk the root ball in a bucket of water and wash off as much of the soil as you can, then carefully tease apart each plant from the root ball. Bigger plant(s) can be potted up individually while the smaller plants placed back in the same pot together ( if you choose to do so, to save space ), but further apart (..so it will be easier to separate them into individual pots later ..if you choose to do so.. )

I've done this with Sabal seedlings i'd rescued and had none die after transplanting / separating.

[Than]

12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

You should be able to separate and repot reasonably easily ..if you are careful about separating the seedlings.. 

To do this w/ the least amount of potential stress on the plants while separating, dunk the root ball in a bucket of water and wash off as much of the soil as you can, then carefully tease apart each plant from the root ball. Bigger plant(s) can be potted up individually while the smaller plants placed back in the same pot together ( if you choose to do so, to save space ), but further apart (..so it will be easier to separate them into individual pots later ..if you choose to do so.. )

I've done this with Sabal seedlings i'd rescued and had none die after transplanting / separating.

Interesting. So far I always try to retain the original soil around the rootball; I thought this way I don't shock it. If I wash off the soil and expose the roots, won't that be a shock? 

And since we are talking about this; I also have some Kigelia Africana (sausage tree) seedlings in a small pot; how should I separate? They have their first two real leaves already.

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, ego said:

Interesting. So far I always try to retain the original soil around the rootball; I thought this way I don't shock it. If I wash off the soil and expose the roots, won't that be a shock? 

And since we are talking about this; I also have some Kigelia Africana (sausage tree) seedlings in a small pot; how should I separate? They have their first two real leaves already.

If you're keeping the seedlings immersed in water while separating and repotting, you'll lessen the potential for / degree of.. shock.

I myself would wait until the Kigelia  seedlings have 4 or 5 sets of true leaves to repot. Would separate the same way as the Coffee.

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

If you're keeping the seedlings immersed in water while separating and repotting, you'll lessen the potential for / degree of.. shock.

I myself would wait until the Kigelia  seedlings have 4 or 5 sets of true leaves to repot. Would separate the same way as the Coffee.

I understand. Thanks a lot. Kigelias' roots will have become one big spidernet by then so help me God

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, ego said:

I understand. Thanks a lot. Kigelias' roots will have become one big spidernet by then so help me God

You have a shot of how the Kigelia  are looking atm? 

[Than]

16 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

You have a shot of how the Kigelia  are looking atm? 

Here is a photo. 

By the way, once you have washed off the soil what's the best way to insert the roots into the new medium so as not to crash and break them?

[Silas_Sancona]

11 minutes ago, ego said:

Here is a photo. 

By the way, once you have washed off the soil what's the best way to insert the roots into the new medium so as not to crash and break them?

Would definitely let those get a little larger. Too risky at that size, -to my eye at least-, to try and pot 'em up just yet...  Let them add 3 or 4 more true leaves ( instead of the 5 or 6 sets i'd suggested earlier. Figured they were already in 1gals ), than see how they look ( roots at the bottom ) If well formed, you should be good to repot.. Yea, you may break a few but, at a larger size / more developed root system, a few broken roots while repotting shouldn't phase them too much.

As for the Coffee seedlings?.. i'll bet their rootball is well formed.. You'll likely break some roots while teasing apart, which shouldn't be a big deal either as long as you take your time and baby them a little after getting potted up, - just in case-.  When you go to repot, take it slow when adding the soil around the seedlings, filling in around each seedling until you reach the top of each root system.. I'll also gently tap the sides of pots with my hands ..a stick ..or something else to settle the soil in around the roots / collapse any potential air pockets in the soil mix as i'm filling. That helps lessen any damage to the roots as well.

[Than]

13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Would definitely let those get a little larger. Too risky at that size, -to my eye at least-, to try and pot 'em up just yet...  Let them add 3 or 4 more true leaves ( instead of the 5 or 6 sets i'd suggested earlier. Figured they were already in 1gals ), than see how they look ( roots at the bottom ) If well formed, you should be good to repot.. Yea, you may break a few but, at a larger size / more developed root system, a few broken roots while repotting shouldn't phase them too much.
 

They actually have many and long roots that already seem to struggle in that tiny space (my mistake, I know, I just had too many seeds and not enough pots). Here is a photo from below the container.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, ego said:

They actually have many and long roots that already seem to struggle in that tiny space (my mistake, I know, I just had too many seeds and not enough pots). Here is a photo from below the container.

 

  definitely give 'em a little more time / let the seedlings fill out the bottom of the container a bit longer before you separate..  While there are some nice roots, you can tell  ..while they're developing correctly, they're still quite young / tender ( finer main roots that are developing right now esp ) and disturbing them now will result in more trouble than the benefit of getting them into bigger pots..  You'd be surprised how long you can keep seedlings in a less than optimal sized container before they need to be repotted, and experience no or the least amount of possible setback when they're ready to be transferred.. 
 

Imagine, as long as the weather there stays optimal, in a couple weeks they will have filled the container enough to be safe enough to carefully transplant out.  I think the biggest challenge sometimes w/ seedlings is finding that " sweet spot " between allowing them enough time to develop a good root system, and not leaving them in their pots so long that the root system becomes too crowded before transplanting..  Some stuff can be ready to go a few weeks after germinating, while other stuff can sit in a smaller pot for a year, maybe a little longer  before i feel they're ready. Overall, I try -as much as i can- to let the roots on seedlings develop enough that they've bottomed out / really filled out the container ..and are just  starting to circle a little before i will step them up into bigger pots..

[Than]

16 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

  definitely give 'em a little more time / let the seedlings fill out the bottom of the container a bit longer before you separate..  While there are some nice roots, you can tell  ..while they're developing correctly, they're still quite young / tender ( finer main roots that are developing right now esp ) and disturbing them now will result in more trouble than the benefit of getting them into bigger pots..  You'd be surprised how long you can keep seedlings in a less than optimal sized container before they need to be repotted, and experience no or the least amount of possible setback when they're ready to be transferred.. 
 

Imagine, as long as the weather there stays optimal, in a couple weeks they will have filled the container enough to be safe enough to carefully transplant out.  I think the biggest challenge sometimes w/ seedlings is finding that " sweet spot " between allowing them enough time to develop a good root system, and not leaving them in their pots so long that the root system becomes too crowded before transplanting..  Some stuff can be ready to go a few weeks after germinating, while other stuff can sit in a smaller pot for a year, maybe a little longer  before i feel they're ready. Overall, I try -as much as i can- to let the roots on seedlings develop enough that they've bottomed out / really filled out the container ..and are just  starting to circle a little before i will step them up into bigger pots..

Great advice! I think the conditions are near optimal in my green house (75 F and around 50-70% humidity) so they should grow fast.

Just out of curiosity, are you a botanist? You seem so knowledgeable! (I am jealous)

[Than]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:42 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

You should be able to separate and repot reasonably easily ..if you are careful about separating the seedlings.. 

To do this w/ the least amount of potential stress on the plants while separating, dunk the root ball in a bucket of water and wash off as much of the soil as you can, then carefully tease apart each plant from the root ball. Bigger plant(s) can be potted up individually while the smaller plants placed back in the same pot together ( if you choose to do so, to save space ), but further apart (..so it will be easier to separate them into individual pots later ..if you choose to do so.. )

I've done this with Sabal seedlings i'd rescued and had none die after transplanting / separating.

A month has passed since I separated the coffee plants and they look miserable atm. New leaves scorched and too small, growth has almost stopped. Some new leaves that are not scorched have a light green colour (lack of Fe?) and they are stunted. I keep them in shade and perfect temperatures (70-80 F).

I took them to a botanist yesterday and he said that washing off the soil in water damages the micro-roots (Sorry, I don't know the English term) and that I should never bear the roots. Even though I did it very carefully, letting the water wash off the soil and not using my fingers. Also he scolded me for adding manure to the potting mix (one handful of manure in a 6-7 inch pot). Finally he said repotting should be done in autumn, when root damage won't cause much thirst due to lower temperatures. In the end he said "basically you made every mistake possible". I guess the burnt new leaves are due to the manure in combination with more sensitive roots. He recommended some anti-stress solution with minerals, such as one made from seaweed or another by Humofert called "S-m-F".  I'll also add mycorrhizae.  I hope they recover.. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by ego

[Silas_Sancona]

37 minutes ago, ego said:

A month has passed since I separated the coffee plants and they look miserable atm. New leaves scorched and too small, growth has almost stopped. Some new leaves that are not scorched have a light green colour (lack of Fe?) and they are stunted. I keep them in shade and perfect temperatures (70-80 F).

I took them to a botanist yesterday and he said that washing off the soil in water damages the micro-roots (Sorry, I don't know the English term) and that I should never bear the roots. Even though I did it very carefully, letting the water wash off the soil and not using my fingers. Also he scolded me for adding manure to the potting mix (one handful of manure in a 6-7 inch pot). Finally he said repotting should be done in autumn, when root damage won't cause much thirst due to lower temperatures. In the end he said "basically you made every mistake possible". I guess the burnt new leaves are due to the manure in combination with more sensitive roots. He recommended some anti-stress solution with minerals, such as one made from seaweed or another by Humofert called "S-m-F".  I'll also add mycorrhizae.  I hope they recover.. 

Yep, Manure, esp if not properly composted will burn, badly.. seedlings esp.. Contains a lot of salts.. I stopped using it many years ago for that reason, and because it turns to muck when it decomposes. Not good for potted plants.  If you can find it, Coco Peat ( Ground Coconut Husk.. ) is a better alternative instead. You may need rinse it ..at least 3 times before using though. Some companies that sell it don't pre-wash it enough before packaging it and it too can have a lot of salt in it ( If not washed before packaging ) To be safe, I put X amount of some ( i purchase it in compressed blocks that will make several gallons when re-hydrated ) in a 5gal bucket w/ several small holes drilled near the bottom, then soak / let drain, break up any chunks, and repeat the process a couple times over a couple days before using. 

Don't use it as a stand alone soil component / soil.. Mix with stuff like Pumice / small Lava rock, Seramis ( Calcined Clay ) and grit   ..and/or pine bark,  if you use that in your soil mixes..



..The term the person you talked to is referring to is root hairs, and yes, no matter what,  you will damage some when repotting / rinsing off the soil when separating entangled seedlings that were grown together in a community pot, Absolutely no way to avoid that when you disturb a plant's roots   ..Never had any serious setback issues when doing this myself..  and i repot stuff year-round. 

...Only exception to that is when it is consistently over 105F, before our summer rainy season arrives,   or in the dead of winter..    Spring is the most optimal time to transplant since repotted stuff will have the remainder of the Spring, Summer, and warmer portion of Autumn to root in / recover from transplanting ~before~  winter arrives and the plant's growth cycle slows down ...or stops completely... for that portion of the year.

Repotting in Autumn, ~Anything Tropical esp~.,  you're gambling w/ the weather ahead, especially where it cools off faster ...while the plant(s) are trying to recover and  slow down for the year.. Not always a good outcome, even where i'm at, where it really doesn't get "cold" in the winter. 

Only exception to that would be plants that have a cool season growth cycle.  Many of those usually slow down / go completely dormant during the summer ..at least here in a majority of the Western U.S. ( Cool season Natives, winter/ spring growing Bulbs / other stuff from the Mediterranean / South Africa / Western and/or Southern Australia with a similar seasonal growth cycle )

 

[Than]

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yep, Manure, esp if not properly composted will burn, badly.. seedlings esp.. Contains a lot of salts.. I stopped using it many years ago for that reason, and because it turns to muck when it decomposes. Not good for potted plants.  If you can find it, Coco Peat ( Ground Coconut Husk.. ) is a better alternative instead. You may need rinse it ..at least 3 times before using though. Some companies that sell it don't pre-wash it enough before packaging it and it too can have a lot of salt in it ( If not washed before packaging ) To be safe, I put X amount of some ( i purchase it in compressed blocks that will make several gallons when re-hydrated ) in a 5gal bucket w/ several small holes drilled near the bottom, then soak / let drain, break up any chunks, and repeat the process a couple times over a couple days before using. 

Don't use it as a stand alone soil component / soil.. Mix with stuff like Pumice / small Lava rock, Seramis ( Calcined Clay ) and grit   ..and/or pine bark,  if you use that in your soil mixes..



..The term the person you talked to is referring to is root hairs, and yes, no matter what,  you will damage some when repotting / rinsing off the soil when separating entangled seedlings that were grown together in a community pot, Absolutely no way to avoid that when you disturb a plant's roots   ..Never had any serious setback issues when doing this myself..  and i repot stuff year-round. 

...Only exception to that is when it is consistently over 105F, before our summer rainy season arrives,   or in the dead of winter..    Spring is the most optimal time to transplant since repotted stuff will have the remainder of the Spring, Summer, and warmer portion of Autumn to root in / recover from transplanting ~before~  winter arrives and the plant's growth cycle slows down ...or stops completely... for that portion of the year.

Repotting in Autumn, ~Anything Tropical esp~.,  you're gambling w/ the weather ahead, especially where it cools off faster ...while the plant(s) are trying to recover and  slow down for the year.. Not always a good outcome, even where i'm at, where it really doesn't get "cold" in the winter. 

Only exception to that would be plants that have a cool season growth cycle.  Many of those usually slow down / go completely dormant during the summer ..at least here in a majority of the Western U.S. ( Cool season Natives, winter/ spring growing Bulbs / other stuff from the Mediterranean / South Africa / Western and/or Southern Australia with a similar seasonal growth cycle )

 

Tbh I did think that the advice about transplanting in the autumn would not apply to tropical plants; my mistake cos I didn't say what I plants I grow. 

Is there any way I can prevent that manure in the pot damaging the plants? By rinsing the pot with lots of water maybe? I also did it with other little seedlings I repotted recently, like my two Kigelias.

I always use coconut coir as medium cos it's more ethical than peat but I didn't wash it before using it... 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, ego said:

Tbh I did think that the advice about transplanting in the autumn would not apply to tropical plants; my mistake cos I didn't say what I plants I grow. 

Is there any way I can prevent that manure in the pot damaging the plants? By rinsing the pot with lots of water maybe? I also did it with other little seedlings I repotted recently, like my two Kigelias.

I always use coconut coir as medium cos it's more ethical than peat but I didn't wash it before using it... 

If the Manure is " Hot " ...a term some people use for green, un-composted Manure,    you'd have to really rinse through the soil, over a week or so  to leach out the salts.  Some plants are able to tolerate more salt content in their soil compared to others..  Since the seeds of Kigelia may be passed through the gut of large Herbivores when they eat the pods, seedlings may tolerate the brief, higher salt content in Herbivore Poop as they germinate.

The advise regarding rinsing through Coco Peat / Coir is just a general fyi..  I've used it straight out of the bag a few times w/ no issues. Regardless, I'm still gambling that it was washed correctly before being packaged though.  For me, It makes up approx. less than 40% of a majority of my own soil mixes.. Other 60% / 60+% of the "ingredients " are mineral-based inorganics..


Should add that Kelp / Fish Emulsion can contain a good amount of salts in it as well.. One reason you'd mix a small amount of either, to X amount of water ( say 1 teaspoon of Kelp, to a gallon of water )

With the Coffee seedlings, if i were in the same situation, i wouldn't add any additional fert. esp anything that could contain salt..  Damaged roots won't draw up nutrients until they recover / start growing again..  ...Think of it like someone offering a buffet  when you have been sick with Food Poisoning / some other stomach bug..  ...You're not going to be hungry -until you recover, lol..

Adding a little Mycos to the soil, to help the plants recover / recover a bit faster  can't hurt though. Not a nutrient, so plants don't feed on it. ( think of them as an antibiotic you might take when sick w/ a stomach bug / the Flu )

[Than]

23 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

If the Manure is " Hot " ...a term some people use for green, un-composted Manure,    you'd have to really rinse through the soil, over a week or so  to leach out the salts.  Some plants are able to tolerate more salt content in their soil compared to others..  Since the seeds of Kigelia may be passed through the gut of large Herbivores when they eat the pods, seedlings may tolerate the brief, higher salt content in Herbivore Poop as they germinate.

The advise regarding rinsing through Coco Peat / Coir is just a general fyi..  I've used it straight out of the bag a few times w/ no issues. Regardless, I'm still gambling that it was washed correctly before being packaged though.  For me, It makes up approx. less than 40% of a majority of my own soil mixes.. Other 60% / 60+% of the "ingredients " are mineral-based inorganics..


Should add that Kelp / Fish Emulsion can contain a good amount of salts in it as well.. One reason you'd mix a small amount of either, to X amount of water ( say 1 teaspoon of Kelp, to a gallon of water )

With the Coffee seedlings, if i were in the same situation, i wouldn't add any additional fert. esp anything that could contain salt..  Damaged roots won't draw up nutrients until they recover / start growing again..  ...Think of it like someone offering a buffet  when you have been sick with Food Poisoning / some other stomach bug..  ...You're not going to be hungry -until you recover, lol..

Adding a little Mycos to the soil, to help the plants recover / recover a bit faster  can't hurt though. Not a nutrient, so plants don't feed on it. ( think of them as an antibiotic you might take when sick w/ a stomach bug / the Flu )

The manure I used was goat manure and it is matured. It doesn't smell of anything.

I sent an email to the company that produces the coconut coir asking what is the product's content in salt. Let's see if they reply. So far I haven't had any issues with this medium though; my plants thrive in it. I've been using about 60% coco coir, 30% seramis and pumice and 10% manure so far when repotting; from now I will remove coco coir. I sometimes water with an iron solution the first time cos coco coir lacks iron and I guess plants will need it.

I won't add any fertilizer atm; the botanist also told me not to. I will add mycos the next time I water the plants. My gut feeling tells me to stay away from those products the botanist suggested. I feel that only mycos, some iron (cos the new leaves are very light green with darker vains) and time is all those plants need.

Edited June 5, 2023 by ego