Central Florida - Is this a Robellini Palm Tree? Lots of ground growth from the base.

[Skenny]

In the house we moved into there is a 4 trunk? limb? (what is the proper term?) palm tree in the back corner. I think it's a Robellini Palm but all of the images I see online and other Robellini's don't have any of this base growth. The top matches but this one has massive leaves and stalks that grow out of the base of the tree at a very fast rate. Is that what Robellinis do or is this something else?

 

I have attached all of the images I have of this tree.  I haven't seen any others like it in the neighborhood so don't even have anyone local to ask so hoping some of you experts can tell me what it is and what I should be doing with the base growth.

 

 

[Merlyn]

It's a close relative to Roebellini called Phoenix Reclinata.  To my eye it looks pretty pure Reclinata, though they hybridize readily.  Ones that size are relatively rare around here.  As you noted, they grow a LOT of pups around the base, each of which can eventually turn into a trunk over many years.  I'd guess that's 20-30 years old.  I have a smaller cluster on the West side of my house that has just barely started to form trunks.  It probably needs a bit of fertilizer, but otherwise that's a great looking palm!

[kinzyjr]

@Skenny Welcome to PalmTalk!  I agree with @Merlyn's assessment that it is a Phoenix reclinata.  Most of them in Central Florida are actually hybrids, but if they are dominant enough to look close to the Phoenix reclinata in habitat, that's what we call them.  The pups that come out of the rootball can be pruned to maintain some semblance of order if you wish.

[flplantguy]

And use extreme caution if you do trim them. They will always exact revenge with those spines and they hurt a lot more than it would look, and they look NASTY.  I've had quite a few pokes and almost lost an eye once not looking up.

[ruskinPalms]

Yup. Phoenix are brutal. I love them and I will always adore the ones my neighbors have 🤣

[ruskinPalms]

Ok full disclosure: I have a pygmy double here planted by the builder that is, sigh, doing great. I haven’t had the heart yet to end them. But, I may very well make it a single, more manageable that way.  Beautiful palms and I do love seeing their feral hybrids growing in the ditches around here.  

[flplantguy]

I like them from afar too lol.  Doing landscaping for a number of years in the desert and now in florida and i will avoid anything throny for the yard.  Luckily i have only prickly pear and smilax now.

[Skenny]

Wow!  So much info here. 

I want to say the thorns and spikes got me when we first moved in.  Not sure how much blood was spilled the first few times I tried to prune it. 

I managed to get a handle on the things by ordering a big heavy pair of kevlar animal control gloves: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DVXQ9RD/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I can now grab everything I cut with my gloved hands and do whatever I want with them without fear of a stab wound.  The gloves can handle big dog bites and also act like armor against these things.  They are a life saver.  

So about pruning, do most people cut everything back at the base?  it seems like once you cut it back it starts growing back immediately so you need to be on top of it constantly.  I want to keep the front that faces us trimmed and the back that faces the fence, do I need to do anything or just let it grow to it's natural state?  When the grow in the front they are many feet tall and cover up the whole base of the tree.  What I have in the pictures is two days of pruning the front and the back I am just letting go.  I guess that's a Pheonix palm tree mullet?  Business in the front, party in the rear.   There's no real stopping it is there?

It was mentioned that this also might need some fertilizer.  What in the pictures should I be looking for that would let me know that?  And then with that what kind of fertilizer do palm trees like and how does one fertilize a palm tree?

[Bigfish]

4 hours ago, flplantguy said:

And use extreme caution if you do trim them. They will always exact revenge with those spines and they hurt a lot more than it would look, and they look NASTY.  I've had quite a few pokes and almost lost an eye once not looking up.

I had a P. sylvestris spine embedded in my hand that required surgery last year.  They are no joke!

[Merlyn]

@SkennyI thought about the kevlar animal gloves, but figured they were ridiculously expensive and might not work.  Regular leather gloves don't always work either, and I tend to use rubber-faced cut-resistant gloves for most stuff.  If I'm careful I don't get stabbed...too much!  But $24 for a pair of kevlar-reinforced leather is worth trying, thanks for the link!

As far as fertilizer goes, this is the photo I was looking at:

In this one the new growth looks pretty nice and green, but the older leaves have yellowed ends and browned tips.  That's common for Phoenix species in Florida, and is usually a combination of Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies.  Adding some "palm special" fertilizer 4x per year is a good choice, common recommendations here are Florikan and PalmGain.  The PalmGain 8-2-12 is a great ratio, you want to avoid any 10-10-10 fast release or any high amounts of Phosphorus (2nd number).  I tend to use Lesco, Vigoro or Sunniland because I have 320 palms and 235 cycads in the ground, and I can't afford to spend $1000 every couple of months on fertilizer.  I'd rather spend it on more palms!    Adding a handful of Magnesium Sulfate (I use Rite-Green brand) is a good idea on most Phoenix in Florida.  Here's my cheat sheet on nutrients:

• Nitrogen - Older fronds turn light green uniformly, new fronds remain dark green until deficiency is really severe
• Potassium - Older fronds get translucent yellow/orange or dead spots on leaves, especially at the tips. Caryota and Arenga get random splotched dead spots in leaves. Sometimes tips are curled or frizzled. Always starts at tips of oldest leaves, moving inwards
• Magnesium -Yellow ends on oldest leaves first, transitions to solid green at the base of each leaf. Never causes leaf tip necrosis
• Iron - Many times caused by overly mucky soil and root rot. Starts with new spear leaves with yellow-green or even white, possibly with spots of green.
• Manganese - Lengthwise necrotic streaks in NEW leaves with dead and curled leaf tips.  Similar to bands showing Magnesium deficiency.  Mn is NOT mobile, so it can't be stolen from old leaves.
• Boron - Bent or necrotic or distorted leaf tips, distorted or bent spear, bands of dead spots on new fans, spears that won't fully open
• Water - Underwatering brown at the edges first, later followed by yellowing of the whole leaf. Overwatering can be drooping fronds turning yellowish and losing color
• Dolomitic Lime or Azomite - Magnesium Carbonate – reduces acidity/raises pH – slower release and adds Magnesium, helps avoid Potassium deficiencies in Cuban Copernicias. 5Lb per palm on full-size Copernicias and a bit less on Kentiopsis Oliviformis
• Garden Lime - Calcium Carbonate – fast release but works well. 5Lb per palm on full-size Copernicias and a bit less on Kentiopsis Oliviformis
• Sunburn - Orange/Red/Brown streaks on surfaces facing the point of hottest sun, typically the worst case is around 1-4pm. Sun tolerant species will adapt and grow out of it. Shade loving species may never adapt.

[Skenny]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:09 AM, Merlyn said:

In this one the new growth looks pretty nice and green, but the older leaves have yellowed ends and browned tips.  That's common for Phoenix species in Florida, and is usually a combination of Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies.  Adding some "palm special" fertilizer 4x per year is a good choice, common recommendations here are Florikan and PalmGain.  The PalmGain 8-2-12 is a great ratio, you want to avoid any 10-10-10 fast release or any high amounts of Phosphorus (2nd number).  I tend to use Lesco, Vigoro or Sunniland because I have 320 palms and 235 cycads in the ground, and I can't afford to spend $1000 every couple of months on fertilizer.  I'd rather spend it on more palms!    Adding a handful of Magnesium Sulfate (I use Rite-Green brand) is a good idea on most Phoenix in Florida. 

Is anything available at the big box stores or do you order everything online?  I see 6-1-8 at Lowes and 8-4-8 at Home Depot.  Home Depot has straight magnesium sulfate though: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sunniland-4-lbs-Magnesium-Sulphate-124615/314375739

When fertilizing a palm how does one do it?  I fertilize my lawn but haven't really done a tree before.   Lawn is all calculated based on sq footage and I use my spreader.  Whats someone to do with a palm?

Honestly I have never even thought of fertilizing any of the palm trees as I didn't know it was a thing.  I like your cheat sheet but it is a big overwhelming right now.  I've never paid this much attention to these trees before and now I am out looking at them wondering what I need to do.  I have three other trees back there of a different type, but that's for another post.

[Merlyn]

@Skenny I personally use the Sunniland 6-1-8 or Vigoro 8-4-8 for most of my ~320 palms and ~250 cycads in the ground.  Using PalmGain or Florikan are recommended by many people on here, I think PalmGain uses Amazon as their defacto distributor these days.  Doing my entire yard with PalmGain would cost about $500 every 4 months, and that ain't gonna happen! 

For fertilizing, the rule of thumb is 1.5lb of 8-2-12 per 100sqft of canopy size.  This was from a UFL research paper.  So if your cluster is about 15' in overall diameter (just a guess on the photos) then that's 7.5*7.5*3.1415 = 177sqft.  So around 1.5*177/100 = 2.65lb of 8-2-12 sprinkled randomly by hand 4x per year.  If you use something with higher number ratings (like 15-5-25) you'd want to put down proportionally less fertilizer.  Likewise if the Nitrogen and Potassium numbers are lower you'd scale the amount up.  So for example the 6-1-8 is about 30% less Nitrogen and Potassium per pound than 8-2-12, so you'd add about 30% or so more if you went the Sunniland route.  Keep in mind these numbers I'm throwing out are all "ballpark estimates" anyway, and it's not in any way a strict rule.  No one actually knows the exact "optimum" amount of fertilizer for any given palm in any given soil location. 

So if you did something like 3.75lb of Sunniland 6-1-8 and a handful of Magnesium Sulfate it would probably be happy.  A 4lb bag of Magnesium Sulfate is probably a 5+ year supply.  Just fling both randomly around the canopy area by hand, avoiding leaving clumps of fertilizer in any spot and avoiding chucking a large amount of it at the trunks.  Some of it in the middle of the cluster is okay, you just don't want to toss a pound of fertilizer in any spot as it'll burn the roots.  Roots will go out from the cluster for 10+ feet in all directions, so anywhere in that area is okay.

As far as the cheat sheet goes, I wrote it up because it's easy for me to find it all in one spot.  We get a lot of "what's wrong with my palm?" questions on the forum.  So it's helpful to know that, for example, yellowed ends of leaflets on older fronds (but not newer ones) is probably Magnesium.  Or if new fronds open pale green or white it's probably iron or a root rot.  In most cases a 4x per year "palm special" fertilizer with the minor nutrients mix will prevent any significant deficiencies.  So there's no need to be too concerned or go overboard trying to diagnose your existing palms.  Just put down some good fertilizer and take a look at them in a couple of months, and adjust if needed. 

[Skenny]

I'll pick up the fertilizer next time I am in Home Depot.  Does it have to be watered in or just put it down and let either rain or the next time the sprinklers run do their thing? The canopy size is the full surface area under all of the fronds?  So measure the entire box around the tree out into the yard?  On the Pheonix those trunks really do spread out.

Fertilizing a tree the fertilizer I assume will make its way down through the dirt and the roots under the ground somehow absorb it all?

How do I do that math with a "standard" palm tree?  I have three others, I've attached a photo of two of them, all the same.  They don't have a huge canopy, they just go high into the air and have their fronds and stuff way up there doing their thing.  I don't get them trimmed, let them grow naturally.   I see other people bringing in trimmers who completely cut almost everything off.  I never liked that look.  Is there a reason to get these trimmed?  Also I don't want to pay for a trimmer multiple times a year if they can stay healthy with their natural growth.  Adding fert/MS to these it would be the same idea but closer to the trunk since the canopy doesn't go very far in any direction?  While we're at it, do you know what type of tree these are?

 

 

[Merlyn]

@Skenny for palms like the clustering Phoenix you can just eyeball the total canopy size (at the outer tip of the fronds) and estimate.  So yours could be 10' x 20' or some irregular size.  A ballpark is fine.  I guess I'd ignore any canopy that's out into the yard, since you already fertilize it.  I'd just hit any area not covered by yard fertilizer.  The only downside of that is lawn fertilizer is fast release and doesn't have the minor nutrient mix (iron, manganese, magnesium, boron, etc) that palms frequently need.  But if there's a particular nutrient deficiency (magnesium for the Phoenix) you can always add that in separately near that palm.

There's no need to water it in, just sprinkle around and let the rain and dew slowly dissolve it down.

The other two are the native Sabal Palmetto, and look in good shape with no obvious nutrient deficiencies in that photo.  Some people "hurricane cut" Sabals, it's a bad idea.  I learned quickly from people on here...never cut green tissue unless you really need to.  Cutting off live tissue is an open wound that can get infected.  Palms also "eat" the oldest fronds for nutrients, so cutting off fronds early just deprives the palm of those nutrients.  As far as fertilizer goes, they seem happy with what they've got now and might not need anything different.  Adding a sprinkle of granular Magnesium may be worthwhile, just to avoid future deficiencies.

[Skenny]

Went out and measured the canopy today, you were pretty close.  It's 16x12.  Bought the Sunniland product.

 

So --- 16*12 = 192*1.5=288/100=2.88+30%=3.7 lbs of product?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Skenny
Word

[Merlyn]

@Skenny that sounds reasonable.  192sqft / 100 * 1.5 = 2.88lb of 8-2-12.  The Sunniland is 6-1-8 so about 30% extra is reasonable too = 3.7lb.  I don't ever actually weigh fertilizer out, on one that size I'd probably do about 5 big handfuls flung around the area.  That might be less than 3.7lb, so out of curiosity I put 5 handfuls into a jug and weighed it...2.8lb.  So maybe 6 big handfuls? 

[JLM]

5 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@Skenny that sounds reasonable.  192sqft / 100 * 1.5 = 2.88lb of 8-2-12.  The Sunniland is 6-1-8 so about 30% extra is reasonable too = 3.7lb.  I don't ever actually weigh fertilizer out, on one that size I'd probably do about 5 big handfuls flung around the area.  That might be less than 3.7lb, so out of curiosity I put 5 handfuls into a jug and weighed it...2.8lb.  So maybe 6 big handfuls? 

Sounds like maybe 7 big handfuls, but thats dependent on hand size haha

Smaller hands = more

[Merlyn]

5 minutes ago, JLM said:

Sounds like maybe 7 big handfuls, but thats dependent on hand size haha

Smaller hands = more

You know what big hands mean...more fertilizer!    When I fertilize my yard I have a dollar store 1 gallon water pitcher and just fill it up with fertilizer.  Then I walk around the yard and fling handfuls around in a vaguely targeted manner.  3 handfuls here...1/2 handful there, etc.

[JLM]

6 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

You know what big hands mean...more fertilizer!    When I fertilize my yard I have a dollar store 1 gallon water pitcher and just fill it up with fertilizer.  Then I walk around the yard and fling handfuls around in a vaguely targeted manner.  3 handfuls here...1/2 handful there, etc.

I dont really have enough palms to need to do this, but i should probably start giving my palms more fertilizer. They will ALL be fertilized soon, some were skipped over because of recovery from winter damage. I have decided to test applications every 2 months instead of 3, and now i guess ill increase the amount just to see what happens. I may get some palmgain before i do that, ive been using some off brand 8-6-6 for the past year and a half now. What does the last number represent? If an 8-2-12 is recommended, what will my palms be missing out on with the middle number being lower?

EDIT: I also plan to start watering my palms with fish emulsions once in between each application of fertilizer. Is this too much?

Edited May 18, 2023 by JLM

[Merlyn]

@JLM it's NPK = Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium.  In FL the soils are really high in Phosphorus, so extra is not needed and just runs off to pollute drainage water.  If you are using 8-6-6 then you probably are giving it wasteful Phosphorus and not enough Potassium.  You could add a little KMag / SulPoMag / Langbeinite if your palms are showing any signs of Potassium deficiencies.  

[JLM]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@JLM it's NPK = Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium.  In FL the soils are really high in Phosphorus, so extra is not needed and just runs off to pollute drainage water.  If you are using 8-6-6 then you probably are giving it wasteful Phosphorus and not enough Potassium.  You could add a little KMag / SulPoMag / Langbeinite if your palms are showing any signs of Potassium deficiencies.  

Once my check drops ill order some palmgain, sounds like a better mix for my palms. 

Do you think it might benefit me to do less fertilizer more often? Like for instance, fertilize monthly but do less than i normally would? I guess i have plenty of time to experiment and figure things out, hopefully this upcoming winter wont be too bad, otherwise i might have to replace Queens with more Queens lol

[Merlyn]

8 hours ago, JLM said:

Once my check drops ill order some palmgain, sounds like a better mix for my palms. 

Do you think it might benefit me to do less fertilizer more often? Like for instance, fertilize monthly but do less than i normally would? I guess i have plenty of time to experiment and figure things out, hopefully this upcoming winter wont be too bad, otherwise i might have to replace Queens with more Queens lol

I think with regular fertilizers (not polymer-coated pellets) a smaller amount more often is better.  They say "slow release" on the bag, but if you look at the fine print it's usually 50% fast release nitrogen, 50% slow release.  So if your palm's size called for 3.7lb every 4 months, it would probably be more effective to do 1lb each month.  That's theory...in practice it might not make a lot of visible difference.  But that's why "fertigation" is a popular option for nurseries.  It doses the plants with a small amount of fertilizer with each watering.

Personally I know that PalmGain and Florikan are highly recommended on here, but I don't use them.  In my cost-benefit-analysis the tripling in price over Sunniland/Vigoro/Lesco didn't make sense.  I am looking into SiteOne for some 50lb bags of Lesco, specificially #510268 at $58 per 50lb, and possibly the cheaper #511414 at $30 per 50lb.  510268 looks like a clone of PalmGain at half the cost, but I haven't bought any to see if that's actually true.  I'm due for another round of fertilizer in a couple of weeks, so I might go buy a bag of each and compare.

[JLM]

13 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

I think with regular fertilizers (not polymer-coated pellets) a smaller amount more often is better.  They say "slow release" on the bag, but if you look at the fine print it's usually 50% fast release nitrogen, 50% slow release.  So if your palm's size called for 3.7lb every 4 months, it would probably be more effective to do 1lb each month.  That's theory...in practice it might not make a lot of visible difference.  But that's why "fertigation" is a popular option for nurseries.  It doses the plants with a small amount of fertilizer with each watering.

Personally I know that PalmGain and Florikan are highly recommended on here, but I don't use them.  In my cost-benefit-analysis the tripling in price over Sunniland/Vigoro/Lesco didn't make sense.  I am looking into SiteOne for some 50lb bags of Lesco, specificially #510268 at $58 per 50lb, and possibly the cheaper #511414 at $30 per 50lb.  510268 looks like a clone of PalmGain at half the cost, but I haven't bought any to see if that's actually true.  I'm due for another round of fertilizer in a couple of weeks, so I might go buy a bag of each and compare.

Hmm, might just go the sunniland route then. Ive had sunniland before, then just got a rando brand from a local nursery. Ill try the less more often and see how that works.

[Merlyn]

@JLMyeah, the advantage of PalmGain (and the other fully polymer coated ones) is that you can fertilize once every 90/120/180 days (depending on the brand) and get consistent feeding for the entire time.  But if you do small doses of regular slow-release more frequently, I doubt there would be a real performance difference.  The last Sunniland label I saw looked really good:

Nitrogen 6%

Phosphate 1%

Potassium 8%

Magnesium 3%

Boron 0.02%

Chlorine < 3%

Copper 0.05%

Iron 1.63%

Manganese 0.14%

Molybdenum 0.0005%

Zinc 0.05%

Now, you could also argue that the bioavailability of the minors sucks.  That might be true.  I don't really know if the oxides are easy uptake or functionally useless...

[ruskinPalms]

At my house in Ruskin, I used Lesco palm fertilizer and it was total steroids for palms. I haven’t used it here in Parrish but I should. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by ruskinPalms

[ruskinPalms]

I’ve been using the big box store brands Merlyn has suggested with good results too but not same fast growth I used to get at my house in Ruskin. For example, I have two Veitchia in ground here that are growing slower than expected compared to how Veitchia used to grow for me at my house in Ruskin. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by ruskinPalms

[Skenny]

I added about a half a pound too much after I checked it.  I did what was suggested though, tossed it all around under the canopy.  So what should I be looking for in the next three months to know if its doing whatever its supposed to do?

[kinzyjr]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:54 PM, ruskinPalms said:

At my house in Ruskin, I used Lesco palm fertilizer and it was total steroids for palms. I haven’t used it here in Parrish but I should. 

The city uses Lesco 8-2-12 + micros on all of their palms.  I'd say the product works as the Roystonea by the golf course is well over 2 feet in diameter.

On 5/18/2023 at 9:12 PM, ruskinPalms said:

For example, I have two Veitchia in ground here that are growing slower than expected compared to how Veitchia used to grow for me at my house in Ruskin. 

Mine were a little slow this year.  I imagine they didn't care for Christmas.  Now that it is hot and dry, they get a little sunburn but are pushing spears faster.

[South Carolina palms]

I just bought a Pygmy date palm, do you think it’ll fair well here in Charleston? 

[kinzyjr]

12 hours ago, South Carolina palms said:

I just bought a Pygmy date palm, do you think it’ll fair well here in Charleston? 

They typically start burning in the mid-20s.  Sometimes you unknowingly get one that has been hybridized and exhibits better hardiness.

[Merlyn]

On 5/20/2023 at 4:35 PM, Skenny said:

I added about a half a pound too much after I checked it.  I did what was suggested though, tossed it all around under the canopy.  So what should I be looking for in the next three months to know if its doing whatever its supposed to do?

I tend to put less than the IFAS recommendation, but that's mostly because my palms are mostly smaller.  As long as it's evenly sprinkled a little extra isn't a big deal.  I don't know how you'd see "not enough" fertilizer except by spotting a sign of a particular deficiency.  In my case I've noted Magnesium deficiencies in some 6' trunk Roebellini,  and also on a couple of big Queens and Beccariophoenix Alfredii.  I add some Magnesium Sulfate to them just to help avoid the yellowed leaf tips.

[D Palm]

Your lawn is very nice. Sabals should be fine without adding fertilizer. On your Phoenix species, the grass will consume a lot of the nutrients before it reaches your palm roots. You can remove the grass a few feet around your palm, or just use palm fertilizer spikes to punch into the ground. The goals is to not have the grass eat the nutrients. 
I’ve known this for a while, but happened to my peaches this year and I was disappointed with the peach production. Removed everything within a 4 foot diameter, ton of granular fertilizer, layer of weed barrier, cypress mulch.