A clean Florida Pseudophoenix sargentii

[bubba]

This is the cleanest one I have seen. Almost as good as Aztropic’s:

[PalmatierMeg]

Very clean. Mine aren’t nearly as pristine. They are also prone to that “Pseudophoenix Disease” (bacterial, fungal?) that kills them all over FL.

[flplantguy]

Are they prone to crown rot also?  Mine had an issue from the nursery with sand in the growth point that caused damage, and it does have the black coating on small sections of the crownshaft.  Peroxide and time has helped, but i do not know what portion of the spear or leaf it was, as it pulled out far enough in to not be visible yet.  Does a peroxide pour on a schedule cause any problems? I used it on my orchids for years to prevent rot and never had issues, so i would think not but i wont take any chances till i know.

[PalmatierMeg]

That could be this disease. It starts out attacking and discoloring the crown shaft, leading to bleeding of fluid until the palm eventually succumbs. That can take months to several years. I read somewhere that treating the affected areas with salt water inhibits the infection. So, we carried 5g buckets to the mouth of the Caloosahatchee River to collect some. Did the saltwater treatment work? Well, I haven't had any P sargentii deaths since then. I did lose a P vinifera to Hurricane Ian.

[flplantguy]

Lasiodiplodia is possibly the cause from what i found just now.  A common fungal pathogen in the tropics apparently and on many species of plants.  I found a study that suggested it but thats it.  A group 11 fungicide like azoxystrobin may control it but i think a peroxide wash and scrub will be my first step.  The crownshaft has a crack on the backside that concerns me also.  It has the brown color consistent with heavy damage in natural stands when a plant is in major decline.  Its small now but after seeing this thread im not going to wait and see, ill give it a scrub tonight and remove the rest.

[D. Morrowii]

Do you think this one is var. “Navassana” with the wide spacing between leaf scars? 

[aztropic]

44 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

Do you think this one is var. “Navassana” with the wide spacing between leaf scars? 

Yes.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[WaianaeCrider]

Lucky no problems here on O`ahu.  This photo is about 2 1/2 years old.

[D. Morrowii]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:53 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

That could be this disease. It starts out attacking and discoloring the crown shaft, leading to bleeding of fluid until the palm eventually succumbs. That can take months to several years. I read somewhere that treating the affected areas with salt water inhibits the infection. So, we carried 5g buckets to the mouth of the Caloosahatchee River to collect some. Did the saltwater treatment work? Well, I haven't had any P sargentii deaths since then. I did lose a P vinifera to Hurricane Ian.

@PalmatierMeg Is there a specific method to use for this treatment? I went down and picked up (2) 5 gallon buckets of sea water yesterday but I’m not sure how its supposed to be applied. A little at a time? How often? 

[bubba]

The irony is that this is one of Florida's indigenous palms!

[flplantguy]

The oldest frond dropped on mine today. Ill post a pic but i think any issues it had are gone also. I did peroxide down the crown but not the saltwater treatment (yet).  I think it would be the same approach with a crown soak for the salrwater just a bucket down the crown and let it soak into the soil around it.  Naturally they are found along coastlines, and old areas that were coastal, so it wont hurt it and makes sense that it helps.

[flplantguy]

The black material is on the exposed parts of the crownshaft, but isnt a part of the plant itself, so i scrubbed with peroxide and most came off.  This new one is cleaner now and i dont see any issues, so if you clean it early on that seems to help prevent the brown from developing.  I think the brown scarring on individuals is from the black deposits over time, but if this is infectious i dont know.  I think i will do the same thing to the crowns of my palms that i do to the orchids and give them peroxide on a regular basis where infections tend to start.

[D. Morrowii]

I kind of thought that the black staining was normal for these? There’s even some on the palm that started this thread. I looked up a bunch on the google machine and most seem to have it. Is the consensus that the black stuff is an indicator of “Buccaneer decline”? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. One of mine recently got brown tips on all fronds, even the one coming out, which I hadn't seen before. It happened at the same time that it pushed 2 flower bracts.  

[Johnny Palmseed]

43 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

I kind of thought that the black staining was normal for these? There’s even some on the palm that started this thread. I looked up a bunch on the google machine and most seem to have it. Is the consensus that the black stuff is an indicator of “Buccaneer decline”? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. One of mine recently got brown tips on all fronds, even the one coming out, which I hadn't seen before. It happened at the same time that it pushed 2 flower bracts.  

Maybe an over watering situation? It might be from all the rain we had last month. 

[sonoranfans]

On 5/8/2023 at 2:54 PM, D. Morrowii said:

Do you think this one is var. “Navassana” with the wide spacing between leaf scars? 

Yep that is a navissana, my sister has one in her beach house with 5'  clean trunk.  Its very happy and 100' or so from saltwater so yes it is one of the best salt tolerant palms.  It has also been submerged briefly in IRMA by salt water, no problem.   Its also very humid down there so they do take humidity well.  She did have (2) but the landscaper killed the other one by overwatering and planting it in rich soil.  Fungal rot often starts in the roots as plant anti fungal defenses(terpenoids) decline in emission from roots when they are stressed.  The surviving navissana is in a real sandy spot with no nearby irrigation.  When I originally saw that spot I was concerned it would dry out and die.  But what did I know?  These palms dont like rich or low drainage soil, dont put organic material in the soil mix as if it was a flowering shrub!  The non navissana do not have those wide ring spacings and their trunks are not as colorful.  Wish I could find a navissana, they are hard to get now,  My sisters palm is fruiting but she didnt send the seed as I had requested.  Maybe I can get some going next year.  We all learn our lessons on palm talk, from this observation I would say dont plant your pseudophoenix ina  flower garden and dont plant it near water lovers like satakentia, or chambeyronia as they dont like the same soil conditions.

[sonoranfans]

17 hours ago, bubba said:

The irony is that this is one of Florida's indigenous palms!

So is serenoa repens and they hate wet organic/clay soils too.  I think its a soil issue.  I would think that mold would just die in the sun and these do like their sunlight.

[aztropic]

2 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

I kind of thought that the black staining was normal for these? There’s even some on the palm that started this thread. I looked up a bunch on the google machine and most seem to have it. 

The DRY black staining is normal for this species. It's when you see the brown tree sap and wet black areas that you have a serious problem. Here's one of my navassana,just dropped a frond today,and getting ready to flower. 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[aztropic]

A couple more clean AZ buccaneers... 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[D. Morrowii]

1 hour ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Maybe an over watering situation? It might be from all the rain we had last month. 

I don't think its that. I used to water it a lot more than I do now and this issue just recently came up. Plus it definitely saw more rain last year. I do have 2 drippers set up on that palm but they don't amount to much. 

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Yep that is a navissana, my sister has one in her beach house with 5'  clean trunk.  Its very happy and 100' or so from saltwater so yes it is one of the best salt tolerant palms.  It has also been submerged briefly in IRMA by salt water, no problem.   Its also very humid down there so they do take humidity well.  She did have (2) but the landscaper killed the other one by overwatering and planting it in rich soil.  Fungal rot often starts in the roots as plant anti fungal defenses(terpenoids) decline in emission from roots when they are stressed.  The surviving navissana is in a real sandy spot with no nearby irrigation.  When I originally saw that spot I was concerned it would dry out and die.  But what did I know?  These palms dont like rich or low drainage soil, dont put organic material in the soil mix as if it was a flowering shrub!  The non navissana do not have those wide ring spacings and their trunks are not as colorful.  Wish I could find a navissana, they are hard to get now,  My sisters palm is fruiting but she didnt send the seed as I had requested.  Maybe I can get some going next year.  We all learn our lessons on palm talk, from this observation I would say dont plant your pseudophoenix ina  flower garden and dont plant it near water lovers like satakentia, or chambeyronia as they dont like the same soil conditions.

I wouldn't mind having one myself! This guy is planted mostly in sand and drains very quickly although I think I added 1 bag of compost but that was 2+ years ago. 

[flplantguy]

Mine was not being cared for in the nursery well.  They didnt know what it was and it was getting overhead water, and was laid down in the freezes.  Sand from being flat and water in the crown was beginning to effect it, i think but it grew out of it.  In the right spot its not a problem but as with all plants in the wrong spot it declines.

[Looking Glass]

All of them seem to have a little black on the crownshaft sheaths in Florida.  When and how this transitions to “the decline” is unknown thus far, I think.   But it seems to be some sort of continuum that progresses to deep, black rot and oozing, whether viral to fungal injury or just fungal.   It is a disease of mature, reproductive aged trees.  

Not all progress, but I do see more black on mine during wet periods.  

Contrast that, with those in the dry air of Arizona….  No black.   It’s just a correlation, but it certainly holds up.  You don’t seem to see Pseudophoenix decline out there.   Perhaps the disease vector is not present, but I think it’s more likely the dry environment is not habitable for whatever causes it.   You could take a Florida grown Pseudophoenix and stick it out there and a few fronds later, there’d be no black, I bet.   

Natural stands of these that look the most healthy, seem to grow in very open exposed spots, in sand and rock terrible soils, blasted by all-day direct sun, and exposed to a lot of salt air, near the coast.  

You see a lot of those that are suffering from decline, in part shade or more shaded areas, in Florida.  I wonder if this has something to do with the crownshaft area staying relatively moist.   Wetness of the crownshaft seems to correlate with this disease.  And it’s plenty wet in Florida already.    I try to keep mine in blazing sun so they dry out.  

People have tried peroxide, salt water and antifungals, both as cures and preventatives.   But there’s no definitive info to go on, so it’s just common sense and trial and error, for now.  

Most mature Pseudophoenix in cultivation in Florida show some evidence of this disease in some stage.  
 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=266237

Edited July 4, 2023 by Looking Glass

[D. Morrowii]

2 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

All of them seem to have a little black on the crownshaft sheaths in Florida.  When and how this transitions to “the decline” is unknown thus far, I think.   But it seems to be some sort of continuum that progresses to deep, black rot and oozing, whether viral to fungal injury or just fungal.   It is a disease of mature, reproductive aged trees.  

Not all progress, but I do see more black on mine during wet periods.  

Contrast that, with those in the dry air of Arizona….  No black.   It’s just a correlation, but it certainly holds up.  You don’t seem to see Pseudophoenix decline out there.   Perhaps the disease vector is not present, but I think it’s more likely the dry environment is not habitable for whatever causes it.   You could take a Florida grown Pseudophoenix and stick it out there and a few fronds later, there’d be no black, I bet.   

Natural stands of these that look the most healthy, seem to grow in very open exposed spots, in sand and rock terrible soils, blasted by all-day direct sun, and exposed to a lot of salt air, near the coast.  

You see a lot of those that are suffering from decline, in part shade or more shaded areas, in Florida.  I wonder if this has something to do with the crownshaft area staying relatively moist.   Wetness of the crownshaft seems to correlate with this disease.  And it’s plenty wet in Florida already.    I try to keep mine in blazing sun so they dry out.  

People have tried peroxide, salt water and antifungals, both as cures and preventatives.   But there’s no definitive info to go on, so it’s just common sense and trial and error, for now.  

Most mature Pseudophoenix in cultivation in Florida show some evidence of this disease in some stage.  
 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=266237 495.78 kB · 3,181 downloads

Thats some good info there. Thanks

[Looking Glass]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:52 PM, flplantguy said:

Lasiodiplodia is possibly the cause from what i found just now.  A common fungal pathogen in the tropics apparently and on many species of plants.  I found a study that suggested it but thats it.  A group 11 fungicide like azoxystrobin may control it but i think a peroxide wash and scrub will be my first step.  The crownshaft has a crack on the backside that concerns me also.  It has the brown color consistent with heavy damage in natural stands when a plant is in major decline.  Its small now but after seeing this thread im not going to wait and see, ill give it a scrub tonight and remove the rest.

 

I can see visually, how that would make sense.  It does tend to creat a black colored rot.  Part of the question, I think, is whether a viral injury precedes some sort on fungal invasion that eats out the crownshaft area over time.  

Any links to that info?  

[flplantguy]

I will see if i can find it, i didnt save it for some reason but i wish i did.

[flplantguy]

The first rhing i read was here and i was interested in the overlap in symptoms:

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP145

The second is a preliminary finding from another study that calls for more data but points to it as a possible cause:

"The etiological agent causing the death of mature Pseudophoenix species in Florida may be a Lasiodiplodia species complex, but pathogenicity studies need to be completed to confirm." https://reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0228670-fungal-diseases-of-ornamental-palms.html

The page is longwinded but thats the gist of it.  Not much to go on but a possible start for treatment or prevention.  There is a lot of other palm disease info there too.

[flplantguy]

Has anyone tried treating their palm with a fungicide like pageant or thiophanate methyl?  I like to avoid it, but if that works it could help people preserve and reproduce their palms so numbers dont keep dropping.  Growers use these two on other plants for that genus of fungus so it may be helpful if a palm is starting to decline enough.

[D. Morrowii]

2 hours ago, flplantguy said:

Has anyone tried treating their palm with a fungicide like pageant or thiophanate methyl?  I like to avoid it, but if that works it could help people preserve and reproduce their palms so numbers dont keep dropping.  Growers use these two on other plants for that genus of fungus so it may be helpful if a palm is starting to decline enough.

I have not, the only fungicides I’ve tried are Banrot, daconil and plain old Hydrogen Peroxide. It sounds like Pseudophoenix decline takes a very long time to kill the palm, probably years per the above link. I guess if you had one in stage 2 or 3 of the decline and it showed improvement then you might be on to something. However, I’m not familiar with the fungicides you mentioned or what unwanted effects their use might have. I plan to do some occasional preventative drench applications with salt water, hydrogen peroxide and maybe banrot. At least until I hear something new. 

[Merlyn]

That's an interesting read, because Lasiodiplodia is associated with leaf blights in Cocos, but not specifically a rachis, crown, or bud blight.  Fosetyl-Al is a systemic that's good against Pythium, Anthracnose, and Phytophthora.  It might not do anything against the unknown Psuedophoenix blight.

[flplantguy]

Anyone with a turfgrass yard that is professionally treated and palms with roots in the root zone has been treated with these chemicals, so any side effects are indirect. I think eventually coincidence may answer the question for us. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by flplantguy