North Houston Palm Species

[Chester B]

I was looking at a map of Houston and most of it appears to be 8B which I found a little surprising as I thought it was all a zone 9 climate.  So my question is for the northern suburbs what palms are considered:

1) Completely hardy

2) Marginal

3) Real zone push

Thanks!

 

[thyerr01]

That's the map using the 1991 data. The 2012 USDA zone map places all of Houston z9a. Given the extreme minimums across Harris county can dip into 8b territory anyway I don't think it changes things practically.

My answer to your question is just the usual suspects: Sabals, Washingtonias, Butias, Chamerops, Nannorrhops, Serenoa, Acoelorrhape, and Chamaedorea radicalis should be fully hardy. I'd recommend visiting JFG to get some ideas of what will survive up there long term.

Marginal: Mules and Arenga engleri

Zone push: Queens - although we're in the window to try and breed some better stock.

Edited May 26, 2023 by thyerr01

[SeanK]

NW is 8b, SE is 9a. By Galveston I'd guess 9b.

I suggest you plan out the space and consider primarily Sabals. Look at some BLEs of various heights and colours. thyerr01 has a good overall list above.

[Chester B]

What about various Trachycarpus species? More of a shady aspect I suppose?

 Jubaea?  Too hot and humid?

 

[Xenon]

Not sure which zone map you're looking at but all of them put much of Houston in zone 9. The 2012 map doesn't have zone 8 anywhere near Houston and even the ancient map from 20-30 years ago puts at least half of Houston in zone 9.

If you're just going strictly by the numbers, most of Houston is "technically" 9B and much of it solidly so (central and south Houston have a 30 year average of 27-28F). Of course we had the mega freeze of 2021 and 2022 which has pretty much eradicated 30+ years of +/- solid zone 9 growth i.e giant queen palms, citrus, etc. I would still consider most of Houson to be a warm 9a. The outermost western and northern suburbs are technically solid 9a, functionally 8b/9a. 

If you planted a bunch of queens or Bismarckia in 1990 inside the red zone, a good number would be alive in 2020 (higher survivial the deeper you go). Same for the blue zone but with pygmy dates. Green zone is Cook pine, royals, and foxtails. 2021 killed nigh everything (sigh)

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Xenon

[Xenon]

How far north are we talking? IAH area is a lot warmer than Woodlands or Conroe. 

I'm assuming "marginal" means hardy most winters and often survives for many years (perhaps decades) without protection and "real zone push" means requires light but not extensive protection on a handful of days each year most years. 

100% hardy: all of the zone 8 stuff including CIDP and Butia. Most Caribbean Sabal spp. and S. rosei will burn in the teens but are bud hardy.  Arenga engleri, Rhapis and Acoelorrhaphe wrightii work as perennials, arborescent stems will die in the low 20s. 

Depending on how far north (IAH yes, Conroe probably not) these are pretty much 100% hardy due to bud hardiness: Livistona chinensis, Brahea armata and probably other Brahea spp., Phoenix sylvestris, most seed grown P. dactylifera and mule palms 

Marginal in descending hardiness: Washingtonia robusta, field grown Medjool dates, Livistona saribus, queens, Bismarckia, Livistona decora, L. nítida, L. australis, Copernicia alba, pygmy dates (bud hardiness), Phoenix rupícola (bud hardiness), Ravenea rivularis (bud hardiness). All of these have reached maturity in Houston at some point. Queens and robusta will become weeds, and a freeway was lined with L. decora for over 15 years. 

Real zone push: Dypsis decaryi and the "more hardy" crownshaft palms like Archonotophoenix cunninghamia, royals, foxtails. 9B or borderline 10a stuff in general. For reference I have Chambeyronia, Cyphophoenix, and other tropicals in west Houston that only need protection <5 days a year, even after the second coldest winter in 30+ years. 

[Chester B]

Yes!  Thank you @Xenonthis is exactly the level of detail I was looking for.  And palm-wise sadly yes Spring through to Willis is the zone of interest, due to the proximity of the lake because other past times and distance inland for hurricanes/flooding.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Chester B

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Yes!  Thank you @Xenonthis is exactly the level of detail I was looking for.  And palm-wise sadly yes Spring through to Willis is the zone of interest, due to the proximity of the lake because other past times and distance inland for hurricanes/flooding.

Oh yes that's the tundra...currently you will start to see a few Washingtonia robusta in their "pure" form around FM-1960 just south of Spring. Plenty of skinny washy mutts in the area you speak of though. FM-1960 is also roughly the 1990-2020 limit for queen palms. Things really start to warm up the closer you get to Beltway 8 due to urbanization. 

[necturus]

Enjoy Sabals. They'll grow much better here than in Clackamas and are bullet-proof @meteorologistpalmguy had a lot on the north side.  Sabal uresana, causarium, bermudana, rosei, mexicana, riverside, etc... I've come to appreciate them a lot more since the 2021 freeze.

For pinnate palms, I'd try the standard Butia sp. at Houston Garden Centers. I lost an in-ground 5-gallon sized Butia eriospatha this winter, but the standard Butia sailed through at similar size. Once BxJ and JxB get some size they should be pretty solid in that area. Mules are a better choice than queens but will probably get it eventually.  You could try some Parajub hybrids - I'd recommend B x P. sunkha or B x P.  tor. I'm more negative than Jonathan based on my experience just outside the southwest 610 loop in Houston.

I don't know how bad fusarium is up there.  In Houston down to the coast it's terrible - all CIDPs are on borrowed time. Our house had a beautiful specimen we cut down a few years after we bought it. They can do well for many years, but you ultimately end up cutting down a monster. A few date palms survived 2021 but most died.  Phoenix sylvestris looked better for a while post-freeze, but most trunking palms died after initially putting out a few leaves.

Avoid Washingtonia robusta. You could consider hybrids or pure filiferia.

For small palms, non-trunking C. radicalis are mostly bullet-proof. The trunking ones may die on you. Can't speak to C. microspadix up there, but down here trunks have about a 1/4 mortality rate even right beside the house in severe freezes (i.e., 2 of the last 3 winters). Arenga engleri is a dud. Small Allagoptera arenaria have done well for me, but larger specimens at Mercer died in 2021.

My Trachycarpus all eventually died, but there are some very large ones a few miles from me (Bellaire). I do not understand why. 

Chamaerops spear pulls in severe freezes. In my 'hood, some trunks gave up the ghost in 2021 while others survived. Chamaerops humilis cerifera is bomb proof.

 

[Xenon]

11 minutes ago, necturus said:

For pinnate palms, I'd try the standard Butia sp. at Houston Garden Centers. I lost an in-ground 5-gallon sized Butia eriospatha this winter, but the standard Butia sailed through at similar size. Once BxJ and JxB get some size they should be pretty solid in that area. Mules are a better choice than queens but will probably get it eventually.  You could try some Parajub hybrids - I'd recommend B x P. sunkha or B x P.  tor. I'm more negative than Jonathan based on my experience just outside the southwest 610 loop in Houston.

Many mules survived in Houston (not sure about far north Houston suburbs), hardiness probably varies based on provenance and individual chance genetics. I'm not convinced the Parajubaea or Jubaea hybrids you mentioned are a good fit for Houston, not until I see larger ones. I'd rather bet on a queen palm, much cheaper and proven to do well until the next freeze (just replace whenever Houston Garden Center does 70% off lol). 

Agree about CIDP, they are ticking time bombs. 

In general you should plant a mix of zone 8 and 9, maybe a sprinkle of 9b/10a for kicks (or if you're able to protect). Sure you could only plant bulletproof palms but I'd be kicking myself if the neighbors have some fat queen palms years down the line. 

[Chester B]

I have 4 Patric hybrids - 2 BYxJ and 2 BY x PS

As well - 2 Santa Catarina queens and 2 Silver queens 

Sabal is my favorite genus so that along with some big Needles is enough to keep me happy.  Anything else is a bonus.  I could see some Brahea species as suitable palms too.

Are there any nurseries aside from Moon Valley that have decent sized Sabals available?  As is in one with a few feet of trunk?  Preferably S mexicana.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

It seems the greater Houston area offers more palm growing potential than the greater Portland area...  this sounds very good.  

If you can grow acoelorraphe and bizzy's.... man oh man. 

[Chester B]

16 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

It seems the greater Houston area offers more palm growing potential than the greater Portland area...  this sounds very good.  

If you can grow acoelorraphe and bizzy's.... man oh man. 

Yes definitely some more species on the grow list, and the heat lovers will grow faster than here.  I would love to grow some Bizzies, but southern suburbs don't offer the opportunities for my other hobbies so it's all about balance.  I can always admire them if and when I'm in the area.  Accoelorraphe will definitely be attempted, they are quite root hardy.

[Foxpalms]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

 I can always admire them if and when I'm in the area.  Accoelorraphe will definitely be attempted, they are quite root hardy.

Accoelorraphe is fine here but for Bismarckia that would be really pushing it. I have seedling that's outside and just went through a very bad winter and spring and it's growing, though slowly.  Here it's the lack of heat for months on end that's more of the issue rather than the cold. So it's possible with the Pacific Northwest's cool wet winters they can survive.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Alberto]

21 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

That's the map using the 1991 data. The 2012 USDA zone map places all of Houston z9a. Given the extreme minimums across Harris county can dip into 8b territory anyway I don't think it changes things practically.

My answer to your question is just the usual suspects: Sabals, Washingtonias, Butias, Chamerops, Nannorrhops, Serenoa, Acoelorrhape, and Chamaedorea radicalis should be fully hardy. I'd recommend visiting JFG to get some ideas of what will survive up there long term.

Marginal: Mules and Arenga engleri

Zone push: Queens - although we're in the window to try and breed some better stock.

In my experience, Accoelorraphe is certainly a lot less hardy then a queen, native here) mule palm and even Arenga engleri ( but after reading more, you consider it " root hardy"......)

[thyerr01]

Yes, the ability to regrow is a big plus here, given the infrequent but serious freezes. There are some Acoelorrhape in an exposed commercial landscape in urban Houston that survived our two recent big freezes and regrew from the roots @Alberto.

Also, six or so clumps of A. engleri out in Rosenberg are doing the same, which is colder than central Houston. Apart from the ones at the zoo, which I haven't visited recently, these are the only mature ones I've seen in Houston. I think these are one of the best looking palms we can grow, and I'm curious that people's thoughts on them are mixed @necturus. My seedlings all recovered from the most recent freeze - but they are ground hugging seedlings.

The only established mules I've seen in Houston were north of I10 in Spring Branch. They were decades old and stunning, but 2021 took all of them out. I think the zoo lost every single one of their fresh transplants. 

[Chester B]

8 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

So it's possible with the Pacific Northwest's cool wet winters they can survive

This thread is in reference to palms in Houston, Texas so different part of the country altogether. No lack of heat but can get cold snaps that limit what you can grow. 

[necturus]

29 minutes ago, thyerr01 said:

Yes, the ability to regrow is a big plus here, given the infrequent but serious freezes. There are some Acoelorrhape in an exposed commercial landscape in urban Houston that survived our two recent big freezes and regrew from the roots @Alberto.

Also, six or so clumps of A. engleri out in Rosenberg are doing the same, which is colder than central Houston. Apart from the ones at the zoo, which I haven't visited recently, these are the only mature ones I've seen in Houston. I think these are one of the best looking palms we can grow, and I'm curious that people's thoughts on them are mixed @necturus. My seedlings all recovered from the most recent freeze - but they are ground hugging seedlings.

The only established mules I've seen in Houston were north of I10 in Spring Branch. They were decades old and stunning, but 2021 took all of them out. I think the zoo lost every single one of their fresh transplants. 

You are right well-established Arenga can come back from the ground like the one's at Caldwell's. The problem is, they come back very weakly. If someone has ones that came back and look great now, please share.  I would love to grow them. I have always loved them since I saw them in Okinawa.

My experience with Accoelorraphe is similar.  Allagoptera is more vigorous, but the big plants at Mercer died and didn't come back.

I am not bothering with queens again, although I have some Santa Catarina seedlings I may plant out.  

[Xenon]

20 minutes ago, necturus said:

I am not bothering with queens again, although I have some Santa Catarina seedlings I may plant out.  

I'm convinced the hardiest queen is just a fat healthy queen regardless of where it came from. Afaik none of the touted "cold hardy* forms have lived up to the hype compared to box store queens. The best survivors I've seen usually have thick trunks, large crowns, robust overall 

[thyerr01]

I guess I would still point to the A. engleri at Caldwell or the Acoelorrhape on westheimer as those examples - but you are correct, they do look terrible right now. The ones at Caldwell looked great by autumn 2022. 

I'd certainly try Queens with confirmed origin in Uruguay and seed from our current handful of survivors. I assume the one up in Humble is still doing fine.

[Xenon]

3 minutes ago, thyerr01 said:

I guess I would still point to the A. engleri at Caldwell or the Acoelorrhape on westheimer as those examples - but you are correct, they do look terrible right now. The ones at Caldwell looked great by autumn 2022. 

I think those two are best for warmer urbanized areas around 610 or closer to the bay, not something you want freezing to the ground ever other winter. @Ed in Houstonhad a really nice clump in southeast Houston. 

FWIW, next to the Acoelorrhape in Westheimer were a bunch of Dypsis lutescens that lived for years and even flowered so that area can be very warm for long stretches. I remember the 2018 freeze killing the trunks off a clump of Acoelorrhape in west 610 around Washington. 

[thyerr01]

Yeah, I remember those. They also had a lot of fruiting Cham cats and several Rhapis excelsa planted throughout the car park of the Crate and Barrel across the street. They removed all of those for some reason prior to the 2021 freeze. I was waiting to get some of that Chamaedorea seed...

[DreaminAboutPalms]

54 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I'm convinced the hardiest queen is just a fat healthy queen regardless of where it came from. Afaik none of the touted "cold hardy* forms have lived up to the hype compared to box store queens. The best survivors I've seen usually have thick trunks, large crowns, robust overall 

Same with CIDP. Water them and fertilize them when young and they develop big trunks and establish well and are bulletproof. 

[Xenon]

25 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Same with CIDP. Water them and fertilize them when young and they develop big trunks and establish well and are bulletproof. 

No worries about cold and CIDP here....

...but they will almost surely die of TPPD 

[Chester B]

I'm going to put the question out there again.  Are there any nurseries that sell trunking Sabals, preferably Mexicana in the area?  I see all the new developments and resorts are bringing in big palmettos.

[Xenon]

16 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I'm going to put the question out there again.  Are there any nurseries that sell trunking Sabals, preferably Mexicana in the area?  I see all the new developments and resorts are bringing in big palmettos.

No experience with either, but Verdant Tree Farm and Palm Professionals are popular. I'd assume just about anything is better than Moon Valley 

[necturus]

On 5/27/2023 at 11:01 PM, Chester B said:

I'm going to put the question out there again.  Are there any nurseries that sell trunking Sabals, preferably Mexicana in the area?  I see all the new developments and resorts are bringing in big palmettos.

Like Jonathan, I have no experience with Palms of Paradise but have heard good things. 

[__nevii]

On 5/27/2023 at 1:13 PM, Xenon said:

No worries about cold and CIDP here....

...but they will almost surely die of TPPD 

Maybe CIDP is better off being relagated to discrete public landscaping practices in Houston — particularly in the city parks like Hermann or MacGregor.  Perhaps that could aid in slowing down vector transmission.

Edited May 30, 2023 by __nevii

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, __nevii said:

Maybe CIDP is better off being relagated to discrete public landscaping practices in Houston — particularly in the city parks like Hermann or MacGregor.  Perhaps that could aid in slowing down vector transmission.

Seems like the public ones die first...can't trust whoever the city contracts to sanitize tools (all it takes is "forgetting" just once to infect). The longest lived CIDP are on private property, never cared for or pruned lol. Even then, it seems like TPPD is just floating in the air 

[Chester B]

So my update is that I am currently in Houston house hunting and have found a home, hopefully we can come to terms  It's on the south end of Lake Houston so inside the "red" zone.  Neighbors that I will share a fence with have mature Washingtonia of the thin and thick variety, big CIDP's and decent sized Sabal palmettos.  Minors grow naturally in the area or are naturalized.  So it looks to be a pretty palmy spot and I look forward to developing the property as its a pretty big lot.  Hopefully I can meet up with some fellow Palmtalkers in the near future.  Take care all.

[Xenon]

Woohoo! That's a huge improvement over Woodlands or Willis as far as palm growing goes! Barring a 2021 repeat, you can grow queens (that area had some biiiig ones), Bismarckia, and most citrus. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Xenon

[Chester B]

15 hours ago, Xenon said:

Woohoo! That's a huge improvement over Woodlands or Willis as far as palm growing goes! Barring a 2021 repeat, you can grow queens (that area had some biiiig ones), Bismarckia, and most citrus. 

Sweet!  We have a pending deal on the house so if there are no hiccups it’s a done deal. 
 

On a humorous note I stopped in at Moon Valley in Conroe. Nice palms but at 4x the price anyone  should have to pay. $7500 for a large mule, date or CIDP. All my palm purchases together wouldn’t even equal half of that and I bought some big palms too.  

[Fusca]

21 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Sweet!  We have a pending deal on the house so if there are no hiccups it’s a done deal. 
 

On a humorous note I stopped in at Moon Valley in Conroe. Nice palms but at 4x the price anyone  should have to pay. $7500 for a large mule, date or CIDP. All my palm purchases together wouldn’t even equal half of that and I bought some big palms too.  

Welcome to Texas (tentatively)!  When I lived in Spring a few years ago there were some guys who made trips to the RGV each summer and brought back some huge Sabals to sell.  They'd lease some commercial property along FM1960 and sell large palms.  I'm not sure if they opened their own nurseries but I didn't see them the last time I was in the area.  If you have a pickup and trailer (and a free weekend) there are places near Harlingen that sell field-grown Sabal palmetto for $50 per foot of clear trunk and mexicana for $60/CT which is roughly what they sold for at these places along FM1960 10 years ago.  Problem is that they take 6-7 months to get established and start growing.  Any that you might find at Verdant or Palm Professionals are probably sourced in the same place or from Florida (which would add much more to the cost).  But they might be already regenerated in a container at a local nursery.  Make sure that you ask ahead of time if you go that route so that you know what to expect.

[South Carolina palms]

Im glad I found this topic, I came across a nursery in the Houston area selling Royals, Foxtails, Triangle, Travelers palm etc. How are they still selling these after what happened these past two winters in TX? Do they not care that these palms will be dead in a few winters tops? And why are people still using them?

[Xenon]

23 minutes ago, South Carolina palms said:

Im glad I found this topic, I came across a nursery in the Houston area selling Royals, Foxtails, Triangle, Travelers palm etc. How are they still selling these after what happened these past two winters in TX? Do they not care that these palms will be dead in a few winters tops? And why are people still using them?

Not to be pedantic, but all of those have been grown before unprotected in favored coastal/bayside spots (20+ years) and parts of the urban core (10+ years). Some also make great patio plants or semi-annuals! The new zone map has most of Greater Houston firmly in 9b with some spots of 10a 😜. Nothing wrong with zone pushing or planting what you want, some people do protect too 🙂

[Chester B]

6 hours ago, Fusca said:

Welcome to Texas (tentatively)!  When I lived in Spring a few years ago there were some guys who made trips to the RGV each summer and brought back some huge Sabals to sell.  They'd lease some commercial property along FM1960 and sell large palms.  I'm not sure if they opened their own nurseries but I didn't see them the last time I was in the area.  If you have a pickup and trailer (and a free weekend) there are places near Harlingen that sell field-grown Sabal palmetto for $50 per foot of clear trunk and mexicana for $60/CT which is roughly what they sold for at these places along FM1960 10 years ago.  Problem is that they take 6-7 months to get established and start growing.  Any that you might find at Verdant or Palm Professionals are probably sourced in the same place or from Florida (which would add much more to the cost).  But they might be already regenerated in a container at a local nursery.  Make sure that you ask ahead of time if you go that route so that you know what to expect.

Thanks for the tips.  I do have a truck and could rent a trailer.

I stopped by Palm Professionals today as well and a had good talk with one of the employees/owner.  Their Palmettos are from Florida and already have been regenerated.  They did have three mexicana that were dug from here in Texas but not regenerated so need time to recover, but it was still good to see them.  I do have a major preference for the mexicana, so really would like to source some reasonably prices ones here in Texas.

So my Oregon house has passed all inspections and is a done deal.  Texas house is undergoing home inspection tomorrow and I don't expect anything major as I did a prelim inspection myself.  So it's close now.  Jan 12 is the closing date so less than a month to go.  And I did really appreciate the 75F sunny day we had today!

[Swolte]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:15 PM, Chester B said:

So it looks to be a pretty palmy spot and I look forward to developing the property as its a pretty big lot.  Hopefully I can meet up with some fellow Palmtalkers in the near future. 

Welcome to Texas! Excited to hear you are close to closing. How big is the area you would be able to develop? I guess you'll be vlogging its development, no?

[_nevi]

23 hours ago, Xenon said:

Woohoo! That's a huge improvement over Woodlands or Willis as far as palm growing goes! Barring a 2021 repeat, you can grow queens (that area had some biiiig ones), Bismarckia, and most citrus. 

I concur — those northeast areas of Houston around Lake Houston, as well as parts of Clear Lake, Friendswood, Dickinson pretty much have the pines of The Woodlands combined with an improved subtropical growing climate.

[Chester B]

9 hours ago, Swolte said:

Welcome to Texas! Excited to hear you are close to closing. How big is the area you would be able to develop? I guess you'll be vlogging its development, no?

Well believe it or not I was able to find a house on 0.4 acres with a small front yard so it’s all in the back. The house backs on to some Mansions/estates on the water so their homes aren’t visible. Lots of palms and live oaks are on their side of the fence so I get some great “borrowed views” as the back drop. 
 

And yes, the  plan is to start up with the videos again. The yard will look pretty wimpy the first couple of years but you have to start somewhere. 
 

8 hours ago, _nevi said:

I concur — those northeast areas of Houston around Lake Houston, as well as parts of Clear Lake, Friendswood, Dickinson pretty much have the pines of The Woodlands combined with an improved subtropical growing climate.

That’s what I was hoping for. I thought it was a nice compromise. Coming from the PNW I need trees around me. 

[Swolte]

52 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Well believe it or not I was able to find a house on 0.4 acres with a small front yard so it’s all in the back. The house backs on to some Mansions/estates on the water so their homes aren’t visible. Lots of palms and live oaks are on their side of the fence so I get some great “borrowed views” as the back drop. 
 

And yes, the  plan is to start up with the videos again. The yard will look pretty wimpy the first couple of years but you have to start somewhere. 

Wow, what a great find! In terms of 'playroom', that seems bigger than what you had and will probably keep you busy for decades to come! I have about .4 of playroom (I don't need wife's permission to do stuff) and its overwhelming at times. I only hope no Bermuda grass is installed for you! 

~ S 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Swolte