The big difference appropriate soil makes for a palm!

[Alberto]

Some 20 years ago I germinated this Sabal causiarum. I have two different soils here in my garden. One part is formed by "latossolo vermelho", a kind of deep, rich in iron and clayish red soil, originated from vulcano ashes from a geological past. The other soil is a decomposed sandstone soil, depht varying from centimeters to various meters. One I planted in this "red latossolo" and two in this brown gray sandy soil (deep at this places). Take a look at the difference!

[Alberto]

Some palms apparently don' t care about this differences in soil. Parajubaea torallyi for example apparently grew even a little bit better in this sandy soil. My Bysmarckia also grew fine in this sandy soil. Butia eriospatha, Butia x Parajubaea cocoides also don' t show so much difference in growth....

[Phoenikakias]

6 hours ago, Alberto said:

Some palms apparently don' t care about this differences in soil. Parajubaea torallyi for example apparently grew even a little bit better in this sandy soil. My Bysmarckia also grew fine in this sandy soil. Butia eriospatha, Butia x Parajubaea cocoides also don' t show so much difference in growth....

Causiarum seems to love adequately structured clay soil (in the ground of course), but this is not very widespread among many other Sabal spp, which rot readily in such soil.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Causiarum seems to love adequately structured clay soil (in the ground of course), but this is not very widespread among many other Sabal spp, which rot readily in such soil.

This is interesting  since while it may not be dense enough to use for making pots or bricks ( though it was ),  many areas here  -former AG areas in the valley esp.-  have a decent clay content.. Much more finer clay content in many areas of California yet i can't think of a Sabal sp. that hasn't done well in both places Not that they're a common sight in the state yet... 

Personally like my soil more on the large grained sand and gritty side though..




As far as Alberto's overall assessment, Fully agree, certain soils / soil profile make ups can make big differences in how well / ..or not so well various plants grow/ thrive, even specimens of the same species grown on two distinct soil types.  

Sage advise that will forever be true:  Some plants evolved in certain soils, for a reason,  and should / must be grown in X specific soil for optimal health ...as close to that soil type as can be duplicated outside of habitat.   Don't plant something that evolved on Limestone / soils derived of it, in it for example,  and that plant may not be too happy about it  ...grow much slower / have more nutrient and stress-related issues < brought about by / encouraged by  poor nutrition >, or may fail to grow  ..at all..

  Others, which evolved to be more flexible / adaptable... can be planted in what wider degree of soil types / profiles they will perform well in. ..Washingtonia robusta, which will grow in almost anything,  for example..

Some might roll their eyes at this  but science is science..

[Phoenikakias]

13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

This is interesting  since while it may not be dense enough to use for making pots or bricks ( though it was ),  many areas here  -former AG areas in the valley esp.-  have a decent clay content.. Much more finer clay content in many areas of California yet i can't think of a Sabal sp. that hasn't done well in both places Not that they're a common sight in the state yet... 

Personally like my soil more on the large grained sand and gritty side though..




As far as Alberto's overall assessment, Fully agree, certain soils / soil profile make ups can make big differences in how well / ..or not so well various plants grow/ thrive, even specimens of the same species grown on two distinct soil types.  

Sage advise that will forever be true:  Some plants evolved in certain soils, for a reason,  and should / must be grown in X specific soil for optimal health ...as close to that soil type as can be duplicated outside of habitat.   Don't plant something that evolved on Limestone / soils derived of it, in it for example,  and that plant may not be too happy about it  ...grow much slower / have more nutrient and stress-related issues < brought about by / encouraged by  poor nutrition >, or may fail to grow  ..at all..

  Others, which evolved to be more flexible / adaptable... can be planted in what wider degree of soil types / profiles they will perform well in. ..Washingtonia robusta, which will grow in almost anything,  for example..

Some might roll their eyes at this  but science is science..

To make things appear even more complicated (as they most of the time really are), soil suitability or not for a certain palm sp frequently depends on and varies with the particular climate, ie prolonged cool to cold or short and mild winter or wet summer vs winter.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Phoenikakias

[Silas_Sancona]

8 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

To make things appear even more complicated (as they most of the time really are), soil suitability or not for a certain palm sp frequently depends on and varies with the particular climate, ie prolonged cool to cold or short and mild winter or wet summer vs winter.

Climatology definitely plays a part..  That said, you'll get more mileage out of a species that has a wide distribution, thus showing it evolution-wise, because it was able to arrive, survive and thrive under many climate profiles, much higher likelyhood that sp ( or Genus ) will handle many different weather-related outcomes, outside of habitat.

On the other hand,  Endemics ..that evolved under specific soil conditions / preferences may not thrive, even if planted somewhere where the basic climate / weather patterns are mirror image similar.. 

One good ( of plenty ) example of this would be plants native to the Cerrado in Brazil. .If seed of various things were available, whole bunch of cool plants that grow there i'd love to play around with, just to see what they'd do  but,  as unique as the soil profile seems to be in areas there,  many of the coolest things may be impossible to grow outside of those specific conditions, even if they would tolerate the climate here or in California..  Other stuff that grows in those areas, but grows as well ..if not better.. outside of that specific region would be better candidates to try / would be the most adaptable, -potentially at least.

Areas where Serpentine soil are another good example.. Common rock and soil deposit type in parts of California  ...and Cuba,  but there are also deposits of it in parts of the N.E. 'rn U.S. / Appalachian Mtns.. Soil-wise, things might be compatible but climate / weather-wise?  No way you'd be able to grow a serpentine endemic from Cuba in a yard that sits on a Serpentine deposit in the northeast or N. Carolina. May not even thrive in the most ideal spot in California either, haha..

[SeanK]

Central to West Texas has a layer of caliche (MgCO3 & CaCO3) in the soil that is difficult to penetrate and is generally alkaline.

[Fusca]

This Butia odorata seems to really like the clay soil here.  It's grown more than a similar sized mule (7-gal container) planted 3 years ago.  I've never had this kind of growth in 20 years of growing these palms.  I've only just started to remove old fronds and it's added at least 75% to its diameter and keeps pushing new growth.  It almost never gets supplemental water or fertilizer.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Fusca

[RJ]

On 6/1/2023 at 4:59 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

This is interesting  since while it may not be dense enough to use for making pots or bricks ( though it was ),  many areas here  -former AG areas in the valley esp.-  have a decent clay content.. Much more finer clay content in many areas of California yet i can't think of a Sabal sp. that hasn't done well in both places Not that they're a common sight in the state yet... 

Personally like my soil more on the large grained sand and gritty side though..




As far as Alberto's overall assessment, Fully agree, certain soils / soil profile make ups can make big differences in how well / ..or not so well various plants grow/ thrive, even specimens of the same species grown on two distinct soil types.  

Sage advise that will forever be true:  Some plants evolved in certain soils, for a reason,  and should / must be grown in X specific soil for optimal health ...as close to that soil type as can be duplicated outside of habitat.   Don't plant something that evolved on Limestone / soils derived of it, in it for example,  and that plant may not be too happy about it  ...grow much slower / have more nutrient and stress-related issues < brought about by / encouraged by  poor nutrition >, or may fail to grow  ..at all..

  Others, which evolved to be more flexible / adaptable... can be planted in what wider degree of soil types / profiles they will perform well in. ..Washingtonia robusta, which will grow in almost anything,  for example..

Some might roll their eyes at this  but science is science..

Forester buddy of mine, since passed, once told me a tree will grow anywhere it can get away with it. (Compete with other species) I would say this applies to palms as well…. 🍻

[Fusca]

On 6/3/2023 at 1:53 PM, Fusca said:

This Butia odorata seems to really like the clay soil here.  It's grown more than a similar sized mule (7-gal container) planted 3 years ago.  I've never had this kind of growth in 20 years of growing these palms.  I've only just started to remove old fronds and it's added at least 75% to its diameter and keeps pushing new growth.  It almost never gets supplemental water or fertilizer.

I finally found the photo of this palm from purchase - perhaps 2 months before planting:

[Scott W]

On 6/3/2023 at 2:53 PM, Fusca said:

This Butia odorata seems to really like the clay soil here.  It's grown more than a similar sized mule (7-gal container) planted 3 years ago.  I've never had this kind of growth in 20 years of growing these palms.  I've only just started to remove old fronds and it's added at least 75% to its diameter and keeps pushing new growth.  It almost never gets supplemental water or fertilizer.

Interesting about the no supplemental water or fertilizer, as Butia are notoriously known for being slow growers unless they receive better care.

I transplanted two nearly twenty year old Butia that were grown from seed and were growing in my brothers field that have about a foot of clear trunk and overall height is about eight feet, and these received no supplement water or fertilizer.

Yet the Butia I planted from a three gallon seven years ago that has received fertilizer and water regularly is larger than those two and flowered for the first time this year.

[Fusca]

9 hours ago, Scott W said:

Interesting about the no supplemental water or fertilizer, as Butia are notoriously known for being slow growers unless they receive better care.

I transplanted two nearly twenty year old Butia that were grown from seed and were growing in my brothers field that have about a foot of clear trunk and overall height is about eight feet, and these received no supplement water or fertilizer.

Yet the Butia I planted from a three gallon seven years ago that has received fertilizer and water regularly is larger than those two and flowered for the first time this year.

The soil here is a pretty rich loamy clay that drains well.  I did heavily mulch with wood chips and it is within the drain field of my septic so it gets a little more than just rain.  But it's usually fast compared to the dozen or so other odorata that I've grown over the years.  I've never had one flower and expect this one to flower soon.