Jubaea chilensis

[aztropic]

10 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

 BTW, I don't think I ever declined your invitation, on the contrary I would very much like to see your collection.

Hi 96˚, Lo 67˚ (now) T-storm in progress

😆

Edited August 22, 2023 by aztropic
Tom "thinking"again...

[Meangreen94z]

28 minutes ago, aztropic said:

I don't think Tom has ever posted a single picture of his garden,the entire time he's been a forum member. He's got some catching up to do...  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

We talk on here and a couple other forums. Sometimes he drops hints of what’s behind those compound walls.

[aztropic]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

We talk on here and a couple other forums. Sometimes he drops hints of what’s behind those compound walls.

But honestly,has he EVER posted a single PICTURE of his garden that you can remember? 'Talk',maybe all he has. Something to consider...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Meangreen94z]

[Meangreen94z]

10 hours ago, aztropic said:

But honestly,has he EVER posted a single PICTURE of his garden that you can remember? 'Talk',maybe all he has. Something to consider...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

I have a lot of respect for both of you. I might not comment frequently on your posts, but I’m huge fan of what you’ve accomplished in your yard. I’ve received enough great advice on cacti from Tom to know his plant collection must be spectacular as well. 

[Tom in Tucson]

I'm not interested in settling any arguments. I don't read the posts here just to "troll" others. My interest is simply to learn from other members what they grow, how they do with the various palms, and other associated plants to achieve an attractive garden. Perhaps my comments in this conversation might lead one to believe I'm just trying to be argumentative, but the reason I asked for proof that growing Jubaea in AZ out in the open under our often brutal sunshine, is as I stated in the other thread that @aztropicdisplayed (as proof of me declining his invitation, where I simply stated I have no more room for larger palms), I'm simply trying to ascertain by gathering evidence of it being a practical choice for growing them in the Sonoran desert.

Being accused of any wrong doing simply because I don't post a lot of images is absurd. I have posted images in the past, but my crowded palm garden does not facilitate itself (my jungle) to posting any worthwhile images. Before I cease posting any more useless comments on this topic I at least want to show anyone that's interested what the area where my palms grow looked like before it became overgrown: https://pbase.com/mamman/palms_in_casas_adobes

Hi 104˚, Lo 67˚ afternoon showers

[aztropic]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:23 PM, Tom in Tucson said:

If you wouldn't mind I'd be very appreciative if you could capture an image (wide angle) of any Jubaea you own at 2:00PM to 4:00PM from a distance showing there is nothing casting any shade between 1:00PM and 5:00PM.

Hi 98˚, Lo 74˚ Hilary clouds

I think I located the picture Tom was was looking for,and hope it meets his specifications.

Wide angle. ✅

Pic taken between 2 - 4 pm ✅

Nothing casting any shade between 1pm and 5pm ✅

Time to laugh Tom - everyone else is!  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, aztropic said:

I think I located the picture Tom was was looking for,and hope it meets his specifications.

Wide angle. ✅

Pic taken between 2 - 4 pm ✅

Nothing casting any shade between 1pm and 5pm ✅

Time to laugh Tom - everyone else is!  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Not really, ..Quite a disappointing turn honestly..

[aztropic]

10 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not really, ..Quite a disappointing turn honestly..

The man made stupid comments attacking a fellow palmtalker, and could NOT prove that his comments were based on a previous post he "THOUGT" he read. His 'thoughts' were never posted on palmtalk - he made them up - just to use as a basis for an unwarranted attack. When corrected that he was mistaken,he only doubled down... Did I miss anything?

If anything,Tom should be apologizing to the community for his actions,and a redo,but he thinks he did nothing wrong. I'll bet the rest of the community will see his specific demands as just a silly lapse of judgement,and everyone will be able to laugh it off -except you.😁 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, aztropic said:

The man made stupid comments attacking a fellow palmtalker, and could NOT prove that his comments were based on a previous post he "THOUGT" he read. His 'thoughts' were never posted on palmtalk - he made them up - just to use as a basis for an unwarranted attack. When corrected that he was mistaken,he only doubled down... Did I miss anything?

If anything,Tom should be apologizing to the community for his actions,and a redo,but he thinks he did nothing wrong. I'll bet the rest of the community will see his specific demands as just a silly lapse of judgement,and everyone will be able to laugh it off -except you.😁 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

🤦‍♂️ sigh,  Tom asked a simple and valid question / request ..not  attempting to instigate an argument  ...and was mocked -repeatedly- ..treated in a very similar manner an 8th grade bully would treat someone.. Not   acceptable, anywhere    Not in 2023..  ..nor something grown adults do..  

Who cares if he shares pictures here..  I'd like to see some, but, that is his choice.. He is not required to and shouldn't be repeatedly  ridiculed for not doing so. 

Adults  don't get a laugh out of such things when they see it happening,  either.   

[aztropic]

47 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

🤦‍♂️ sigh,  Tom asked a simple and valid question / request ..not  attempting to instigate an argument  ...and was mocked -repeatedly- ..treated in a very similar manner an 8th grade bully would treat someone.. Not   acceptable, anywhere    Not in 2023..  ..nor something grown adults do..  

Who cares if he shares pictures here..  I'd like to see some, but, that is his choice.. He is not required to and shouldn't be repeatedly  ridiculed for not doing so. 

Adults  don't get a laugh out of such things when they see it happening,  either.   

Silas,you've totally missed the point. This has NOTHING to do with his lack of picture posting. He started out the string accusing a fellow palmtalker of being a liar,(and he used that exact word) by creating fictitious 'THOUGHTS' that he imagined he read on palmtalk. When corrected that his 'thoughts' were mistaken, he only tried to continue on with his demands,without addressing the fact that he MADE UP his thoughts,to see if he could force somebody to bow to him. Talk about an 8th grade bully. In 2023,people don't go around calling others liars out of the blue,without any proof. In this case,Tom did. Now, he only has his 'thoughts' to fall back on,and that only shows his attacks were with malice,and not based on any fact. Just because he 'thinks' of something, it doesn't make it true. He can search all the previous posts all day long,and he will never find a statement (that) he made up, to back himself up. Successful as he is, he was wrong in the way he approached the subject. Starting out with an accusation, and then making specific demands, is not going to get you anywhere. Don't see how you can make an argument out of that.🤷‍♂️ 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Edited August 23, 2023 by aztropic

[amh]

So, whats the best course of action for germinating stubborn jubaea seeds?

@Josue Diaz How is this years publicly accessible crop, did the squirrels get everything?

[aztropic]

15 minutes ago, amh said:

So, whats the best course of action for germinating stubborn jubaea seeds?

@Josue Diaz

Patience! 😅The seeds I planted directly in the ground took several months to germinate. (under mother nature's conditions.) 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Silas,you've totally missed the point. It has NOTHING to do with his lack of picture posting. He started out the string accusing a fellow palmtalker of being a liar,(and he used that exact word) by creating fictitious 'THOUGHTS' that he imagined he read on palmtalk. When corrected that his 'thoughts' were mistaken, he only tried to continue on with his demands,without addressing the fact that he MADE UP his thoughts,to see if he could force somebody to bow to him. Talk about an 8th grade bully. In 2023,people don't go around calling others liars out of the blue,without any proof. In this case,Tom did. Now, he only has his 'thoughts' to fall back on,and that only shows his attacks were with malice,and not based on any fact. Just because he 'thinks' of something, it doesn't make it true. He can search all the previous posts all day long,and he will never find a statement he made up, to back himself up. Successful as he is, he was wrong in the way he approached the subject. Don't see how you can make an argument out of that.🤷‍♂️ 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Been closely following this thread since- it- started-.. Tom did no such thing.. His request and thoughts were Quite  respectful.. I saw where he first asked for a couple shots when making the statement about how they may do   -if-  treated like a Brahea..   ..And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    ...I too remember prior discussion regarding on how well / ..maybe not so well Jubes could do here several times in the past ..so, Tom has a valid point to bring it up.  I sure would.

I could post the string, but won't ..Because it is pointless.  That said,  you're entitled to whichever opinion you view.  Opinion doesn't make it fact however.  ...Nor is it justification for -any- ridicule, let alone repeated jabs ..

No matter how " funny " you may think it is, especially assuming others would be " Laughing too "  it isn't..  It is childish and  highly  disrespectful.  

I would have expected a better response / course of discussion from your angle,  but,  seems my opinion of that may not be fact ...Which is a disappointment. 

Full-  Stop-  ...this aspect of the overall discussion anyway.

 

[Fusca]

43 minutes ago, amh said:

So, whats the best course of action for germinating stubborn jubaea seeds?

@Josue Diaz How is this years publicly accessible crop, did the squirrels get everything?

In San Antonio I had unusual results germinating Jubaea seeds.  I started out with several - most of them using the baggie method with 90°F bottom heat.  Some I cracked open, others I left alone.  I got one "cracked" and one "uncracked" seed to germinate in a baggie (<10%).  I planted two uncracked seeds outdoors in a flower bed and both germinated (100%).  Apparently fluctuation in temperatures is key to success.

[amh]

1 minute ago, Fusca said:

In San Antonio I had unusual results germinating Jubaea seeds.  I started out with several - most of them using the baggie method with 90°F bottom heat.  Some I cracked open, others I left alone.  I got one "cracked" and one "uncracked" seed to germinate in a baggie (<10%).  I planted two uncracked seeds outdoors in a flower bed and both germinated (100%).  Apparently fluctuation in temperatures is key to success.

I purchased a batch of pure jubaea seed and a batch of jubutia seeds earlier in the year. I started both with the baggie/heat mat method, but only 1 jubutia germinated. I've since moved the seeds to community pots outside, but have not seen any germination. The seeds do not rattle and still do not float in water. I haven't given up, but this is my first experience with jubaea seeds.

[Billeb]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

Silas,you've totally missed the point. This has NOTHING to do with his lack of picture posting. He started out the string accusing a fellow palmtalker of being a liar,(and he used that exact word) by creating fictitious 'THOUGHTS' that he imagined he read on palmtalk. When corrected that his 'thoughts' were mistaken, he only tried to continue on with his demands,without addressing the fact that he MADE UP his thoughts,to see if he could force somebody to bow to him. Talk about an 8th grade bully. In 2023,people don't go around calling others liars out of the blue,without any proof. In this case,Tom did. Now, he only has his 'thoughts' to fall back on,and that only shows his attacks were with malice,and not based on any fact. Just because he 'thinks' of something, it doesn't make it true. He can search all the previous posts all day long,and he will never find a statement (that) he made up, to back himself up. Successful as he is, he was wrong in the way he approached the subject. Starting out with an accusation, and then making specific demands, is not going to get you anywhere. Don't see how you can make an argument out of that.🤷‍♂️ 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

He’s Always finding an argument. 
 

Shocking. 🙄

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

…. treated in a very similar manner an 8th grade bully would treat someone.. Not   acceptable, anywhere    Not in 2023..  ..nor something grown adults do..  


Adults  don't get a laugh out of such things when they see it happening,  either.   

Berating somebody and insulting them?!?
 

Again…..shocking. 
 

-dale 

 

guaranteed rebuttal in 3…..2…1….👇👇

[MobileBayGarden]

45 minutes ago, amh said:

I purchased a batch of pure jubaea seed and a batch of jubutia seeds earlier in the year. I started both with the baggie/heat mat method, but only 1 jubutia germinated. I've since moved the seeds to community pots outside, but have not seen any germination. The seeds do not rattle and still do not float in water. I haven't given up, but this is my first experience with jubaea seeds.

Thank you so much for actually responding with a comment related to the subject of this conversation. I started this thread to learn more about Jubaea and try to get some help locating seeds. If you don’t mind shooting me a message I would love to know where you sourced the Jubaea and Jubatia seed. Jubatia and any other hybrids are always at the top of my bucket list if anyone else has recommendations!! Thank you again for your comment. 
 

Philippe

[aztropic]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Been closely following this thread since- it- started-.. Tom did no such thing.. His request and thoughts were Quite  respectful.. I saw where he first asked for a couple shots when making the statement about how they may do   -if-  treated like a Brahea..   ..And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    

 

Let's get Tom's quote straight,for the record. "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade."

That statement,in itself, IS calling somebody out to be a liar. The fact that it was made without any proof seems to be getting by you. I asked him to show the group where he came up with this idea,and he refused,because no such statement about afternoon shade for the 15 gallon plants has ever been made by myself. Just a false accusation,initiated to cause trouble. (shame on you Tom)

Then he wants me to take specific pictures at certain times of day,and if I don't do this for him, he absolutely IS calling me a liar if I don't show him photographic proof to verify his beliefs. Very childish and unprofessional.

He 'THOUGHT' that I had said in a thread that they did get afternoon shade. When corrected,and the situation explained clearly to him that I DO have 1 planted tree that does receive shade,but that the 15 gallon plants were always in full all day sun,he continued on with his demands about taking specific pictures,at specific times,without a care that he could not find any statement from myself,in any thread,stating that these 15 gallon palms had any afternoon shade. (he obviously got things confused from reading about my 1 PLANTED tree which DOES have shade) When you're wrong and you mis speak, received a valid correction,and you still push forward with nothing but your own thoughts to back you up, you should be man enough to apologize,realizing you were wrong. Name calling, insinuations, and false accusations are not to be tolerated or excused on this public forum. I won't put up with it,and I'm sure you wouldn't either if somebody was trying to bully YOU with their false statements.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Edited August 23, 2023 by aztropic

[Meangreen94z]

4 hours ago, amh said:

So, whats the best course of action for germinating stubborn jubaea seeds?

@Josue Diaz How is this years publicly accessible crop, did the squirrels get everything?

I just put them in a ziplock bag with moist peat moss in my garage with some degree of light. The varying temperatures, especially going into the fall will eventually trigger them. they are extremely finicky as seedlings, at least in our climate. Expect to lose a few, so keep an eye on them.

[amh]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

I just put them in a ziplock bag with moist peat moss in my garage with some degree of light. The varying temperatures, especially going into the fall will eventually trigger them. they are extremely finicky as seedlings, at least in our climate. Expect to lose a few, so keep an eye on them.

The funny thing is that the one plant that I have seems to thrive in my climate, so far, but it is growing in about 70% peat.

[Palmiz]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:45 AM, aztropic said:

On 8/22/2023 at 5:45 AM, aztropic said:

Tom,you KNOW you've started something that you just can't finish... You "thought" I said something in a post. Then you use that "thought" to call me a liar unless I take specific pictures, just for you, at specific times of day? Seriously? You've really lost it old man. FIND that post where you "thought" and SHOW IT to the group to save YOUR reputation. Now YOU are being called out as the real liar,for making up imaginary posts and using them as "fact" to attack people with... Unfortunately,you'll never find that post to save yourself, because it doesn't exist. 🤷‍♂️ 

Palmtalk is supposed to be a friendly forum where people share information and interact with each other in a friendly manor. Apparently,you didn't get the memo. Your style of insinuations,and demands,are not welcome on this board,and you really should be ashamed of yourself for the way you have acted here. Next time you're feeling inclined to accuse or attack someone,put it in a private message and leave the group out of it,or better yet,just keep it to yourself. Nobody needs your drama... 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

 

What Scott said...

Palmtalk is supposed to be a friendly forum where people share information and interact with each other in a friendly manor. Apparently,you didn't get the memo. Your style of insinuations,and demands,are not welcome on this board,and you really should be ashamed of yourself for the way you have acted here. Next time you're feeling inclined to accuse or attack someone,put it in a private message and leave the group out of it,or better yet,just keep it to yourself. Nobody needs your drama... 

[AzulPalmsAZ]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:50 AM, aztropic said:

I don't think Tom has ever posted a single picture of his garden,the entire time he's been a forum member. He's got some catching up to do...  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

I could not agree with Aztropic more. I have a Juvenile Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23 AZ summers that does not exhibit any weakness. It seems like Tom is suffering from confusion and makes baseless claims while trying to portray expertises on this species. 
 

Aztropic is a leader of palmtalk and has provided evidence of his expertise through his comments and pictures of his collection. In Arizona he is one of the very best to consult when discussing palms.

Tom, you need to do some more research and I suggest not challenging palm legends like Aztropic unless you can at minimum provide support for your accusations and evidence of why such species can’t exist in Az. 
 

I’ll send you a live pic of my thriving two yr old Jubea at 2pm AZ time right now if that’s what it takes for you to admit you are wrong and naive on the species. Please advise asap 

[Tom in Tucson]

14 minutes ago, AzulPalmsAZ said:

I could not agree with Aztropic more. I have a Juvenile Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23 AZ summers that does not exhibit any weakness. It seems like Tom is suffering from confusion and makes baseless claims while trying to portray expertises on this species. 
 

Aztropic is a leader of palmtalk and has provided evidence of his expertise through his comments and pictures of his collection. In Arizona he is one of the very best to consult when discussing palms.

Tom, you need to do some more research and I suggest not challenging palm legends like Aztropic unless you can at minimum provide support for your accusations and evidence of why such species can’t exist in Az. 
 

I’ll send you a live pic of my thriving two yr old Jubea at 2pm AZ time right now if that’s what it takes for you to admit you are wrong and naive on the species. Please advise asap 

Please do. If what you say is true "Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23", and it is thriving without any minor sun scald, I will be amazed. I will consider that he is right, but why on earth didn't he simply abide by my request to post the image? Was it that difficult, or was he just pissed off that I supposedly was calling him a liar, and out of stubbornness refused to comply with my request. We may never know.

Hi 109˚, Lo 78˚

[AzulPalmsAZ]

6 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Please do. If what you say is true "Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23", and it is thriving without any minor sun scald, I will be amazed. I will consider that he is right, but why on earth didn't he simply abide by my request to post the image? Was it that difficult, or was he just pissed off that I supposedly was calling him a liar, and out of stubbornness refused to comply with my request. We may never know.

Hi 109˚, Lo 78˚

Says the person who hasn’t provided an image ever. I don’t think anyone other than you questions Aztropic authenticity, he furnished evidence. You provided nothing

[AzulPalmsAZ]

21 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Please do. If what you say is true "Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23", and it is thriving without any minor sun scald, I will be amazed. I will consider that he is right, but why on earth didn't he simply abide by my request to post the image? Was it that difficult, or was he just pissed off that I supposedly was calling him a liar, and out of stubbornness refused to comply with my request. We may never know.

Hi 109˚, Lo 78˚

He provided actual images of his 15g Jubea looking extraordinary. Is there something wrong with your internet that you couldn’t see them? 
And also to confirm you disagree with university of Arizona on the viability of this species? https://cales.arizona.edu/extension/ornamentalhort/landscapemgmt/plantmaterial/palm.pdf

Tom- you are the only one who says these palms can’t survive in AZ., yet you can’t explain why or provide any evidence of why you believe this. i look forward to any reasoning you have Az legends who grow this species as well as your local university disagree with you so I am eager to learn how you arrived at your conclusion. 

 

 

 

[AzulPalmsAZ]

1 hour ago, AzulPalmsAZ said:

I could not agree with Aztropic more. I have a Juvenile Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23 AZ summers that does not exhibit any weakness. It seems like Tom is suffering from confusion and makes baseless claims while trying to portray expertises on this species. 
 

Aztropic is a leader of palmtalk and has provided evidence of his expertise through his comments and pictures of his collection. In Arizona he is one of the very best to consult when discussing palms.

Tom, you need to do some more research and I suggest not challenging palm legends like Aztropic unless you can at minimum provide support for your accusations and evidence of why such species can’t exist in Az. 
 

I’ll send you a live pic of my thriving two yr old Jubea at 2pm AZ time right now if that’s what it takes for you to admit you are wrong and naive on the species. Please advise asap 

Since research is too much work for you take a look at the below. send over some evidence to backup your argument I can’t seem to find a thing to support your claims meanwhile actual universities support aztropic. 

[Tom in Tucson]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:35 PM, AzulPalmsAZ said:

Since research is too much work for you take a look at the below. send over some evidence to backup your argument I can’t seem to find a thing to support your claims meanwhile actual universities support aztropic. 

I hate to sound like a lawyer, but this so called evidence is purely hearsay. This copy of an old pamphlet is basically someones attempt to poorly plagiarize a booklet by Desmond Muirhead (published in approx. 1976 without copyright). He was a landscape architect who faded into obscurity. To be fair, there's some good info. in that book, but I would never recommend trying to find it. Because of the lack of copyright, many of the drawings in his booklet were used in this UofA pamphlet. One of most glaring errors in this unfortunate pamphlet is the assertion that Trachycarpus fortunei can be grown in full sun (if you like to see what a dying palm go's through). The ones at the UofA are planted in between buildings on campus, and they usually look miserable despite the shade.

BTW, where are those images you promised?

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

Edited August 27, 2023 by Tom in Tucson

[JubaeaMan138]

So my experience with these is they do Get a little burned In heat of summer . And always look best spring and fall. Fall they probably look best . They will take full sun I would imagine just fine in AZ but I wouldnt think it is ideal for sure .

[aztropic]

33 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

 

BTW, where are those images you promised?

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚ Aug 26

Tom,you just can't let it go,can you.🤷‍♂️ The world sees the real you through one attack after the next. Where's YOUR PROOF of what you MADE UP about me ever saying my 15 gallon trees had any afternoon shade?

Silas even fell on your sword and made up his own lie trying to stick up for his little buddy when he remanufactured your original quote quoting"Been closely following this thread since- it- started-.. Tom did no such thing.. His request and thoughts were Quite  respectful.. I saw where he first asked for a couple shots when making the statement about how they may do   -if-  treated like a Brahea..   ..And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    ...I  HERE IS YOUR ORIGINAL QUOTE. "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade". FIND THAT QUOTE TOM, and post it here to prove YOU aren't the liar.

 Everyone knows,you absolutely DID call me a liar. Still haven't apologized to the group for your actions and demanding language, using words like "abide by my request" and "comply with my request". You are not in a position to make these kind of demands of others... The world is now getting to see the REAL Tom Birt through his writings.

When AzulPalmsAZ said he's got a young Jubaea growing in full sun,right away,you assign MORE specifics to hedge your bet if he posts a picture.. Now,according to Tom, an Arizona grown palm is not allowed to have even MINOR sun scald. I have hundreds of palms growing in my gardens,and EVERY SINGLE ONE has some defect like a little sunburn or brown tipping. Almost impossible to produce a Florida quality plant under outdoor Arizona conditions.

I told you from the beginning,you have started something that you just can't finish. Making up your lies and demands got you nowhere.You were offered multiple opportunities to bow out gracefully,yet you continue on. You have been exposed,and I'll bet,have lost the respect of many palmtalk readers. Just shameful...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, aztropic said:

 

Silas even fell on your sword and made up his own lie trying to stick up for his little buddy when he remanufactured your original quote quoting"

WOAH there fella!! .. I'd completely washed my hands of this but, if you're going to accuse me of something, you better have 100%  Con- Crete-  proof  before you drag me into your ..whatever this is for you.... 
 
You know what, i'm done..  @PALM MOD  Please address this,  before i have to.

[aztropic]

Silas,look at the quote you made up,and compare it to Toms actual quote. Your quote of Tom's,is NOT,notice the word NOT, the quote that Tom made.

.And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    ...I  HERE IS TOMS ORIGINAL QUOTE. "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade". 

The truth shall set you free.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[iDesign]

Hey guys - Any chance we can just chalk this one up to an extra-hot Arizona Summer and (hopefully) laugh about it someday (later)?

The big picture is that a couple people who really like palms were debating the sun tolerance of Jubea chilensis... and things got out of hand. Some ugly name calling happened, but feelings are still too hot for an apology from either side (at least not yet). It's officially time to "agree to disagree".

Hopefully there will come a time where you guys can happily tour each others' gardens and chuckle about the fact that you had such a passionate argument over a palm, but it's time to let this one go (at least publicly). Palmtalk is one of the few places left on the internet we can go for chill, friendly chats about a common hobby. Peace out. 🕊️

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, aztropic said:

Silas,look at the quote you made up,and compare it to Toms actual quote. Your quote of Tom's,is NOT,notice the word NOT, the quote that Tom made.

.And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    ...I  HERE IS TOMS ORIGINAL QUOTE. "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade". 

The truth shall set you free.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Nothing there where he flat out called you a liar..  As in " Scott, you're lying! / You Lie  / Are a liar " .. Which is what actually matters, and would hold up in court .. I can assume  anything  about someone questioning what i might say,  has to say about it,   but,  facts are facts,   and there is nothing here ..or anywhere where " you're lying " is ...or ever was... used.

Again, it would have to hold up in a court of law,  to be accurate / factual..


Assume whatever you choose to though.. But,  From this moment forward, leave my name, screen name  ..ANYTHING... related to me  ..out of your mouth / words,  assumptions / opinions.. 

That means NO reply to this comment...   Again,  NO   Reply,   where me ..or the mention of me  is added..  ..Alright?  

So everyone sees this, and there are no further questions/ is as clear as can be on an internet site,    **** This is the final time  i will make a respectful  request.. ****

I trust.... you'll understand that ...and be respectful of that.. I really don't want to have to take this ..beyond... the forum.    Good luck on your journey..

[Tom in Tucson]

On 8/27/2023 at 12:06 PM, iDesign said:

Hey guys - Any chance we can just chalk this one up to an extra-hot Arizona Summer and (hopefully) laugh about it someday (later)?

The big picture is that a couple people who really like palms were debating the sun tolerance of Jubea chilensis... and things got out of hand. Some ugly name calling happened, but feelings are still too hot for an apology from either side (at least not yet). It's officially time to "agree to disagree".

Hopefully there will come a time where you guys can happily tour each others' gardens and chuckle about the fact that you had such a passionate argument over a palm, but it's time to let this one go (at least publicly). Palmtalk is one of the few places left on the internet we can go for chill, friendly chats about a common hobby. Peace out. 🕊️

I'm quite pleased you are taking the time to act as something of a mediator on this ridiculous discussion.

Since you apparently think that we should "bury the hatchet", I'd like to take this opportunity to amass what was said from it's onset. Hopefully some PT members will take the time to read it all. I think that it speaks for itself.

The 1st aztropic statement: "The 15 gallon pots I have growing ARE in full,all day sun,and mine aren't burning..."

His image shows some palms next to a cinder block wall. If they are on the south side of the wall, almost any species of palm in that location (with full sun all day), for a period of a few days in the Sonoran desert, almost always leads to a "death sentence". If they're on the north, east, or west side of the wall, they cannot receive sun all day (in the northern hemisphere).  

My reply: "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade. If you wouldn't mind I'd be very appreciative if you could capture an image (wide angle) of any Jubaea you own at 2:00PM to 4:00PM from a distance showing there is nothing casting any shade between 1:00PM and 5:00PM."

aztropic replied: "No Tom,you are confused. I DO have a larger Jubaea planted in the ground,that DOES get afternoon shade provided by cement block walls. The 15 gallon saleable plants ARE in FULL ALL DAY SUN! I've invited you out previously to come check things out,but you declined. I don't know why you are such a doubting Thomas..."

My reply: "Rather than me trying to find the post of the 15 gallon plants, why not just do me the favor of either re-posting the image, or better still taking a new picture as I asked. BTW, I don't think I ever declined your invitation, on the contrary I would very much like to see your collection."

The next aztropic reply: "Tom,you KNOW you've started something that you just can't finish... You "thought" I said something in a post. Then you use that "thought" to call me a liar unless I take specific pictures, just for you, at specific times of day? Seriously? You've really lost it old man. FIND that post where you "thought" and SHOW IT to the group to save YOUR reputation. Now YOU are being called out as the real liar,for making up imaginary posts and using them as "fact" to attack people with... Unfortunately,you'll never find that post to save yourself, because it doesn't exist. 🤷‍♂️ 

Palmtalk is supposed to be a friendly forum where people share information and interact with each other in a friendly manor. Apparently,you didn't get the memo. Your style of insinuations,and demands,are not welcome on this board,and you really should be ashamed of yourself for the way you have acted here. Next time you're feeling inclined to accuse or attack someone,put it in a private message and leave the group out of it,or better yet,just keep it to yourself. Nobody needs your drama..."

My reply: " I'm not interested in settling any arguments. I don't read the posts here just to "troll" others. My interest is simply to learn from other members what they grow, how they do with the various palms, and other associated plants to achieve an attractive garden. Perhaps my comments in this conversation might lead one to believe I'm just trying to be argumentative, but the reason I asked for proof that growing Jubaea in AZ out in the open under our often brutal sunshine, is as I stated in the other thread that @aztropic displayed (as proof of me declining his invitation, where I simply stated I have no more room for larger palms), I'm simply trying to ascertain by gathering evidence of it being a practical choice for growing them in the Sonoran desert.

Being accused of any wrong doing simply because I don't post a lot of images is absurd. I have posted images in the past, but my crowded palm garden does not facilitate itself (my jungle) to posting any worthwhile images. Before I cease posting any more useless comments on this topic I at least want to show anyone that's interested what the area where my palms grow looked like before it became overgrown: https://pbase.com/mamman/palms_in_casas_adobes"

Then AzulPalmsAZ jumped into the fray: "I could not agree with Aztropic more. I have a Juvenile Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23 AZ summers that does not exhibit any weakness. It seems like Tom is suffering from confusion and makes baseless claims while trying to portray expertises on this species. 
 

Aztropic is a leader of palmtalk and has provided evidence of his expertise through his comments and pictures of his collection. In Arizona he is one of the very best to consult when discussing palms.

Tom, you need to do some more research and I suggest not challenging palm legends like Aztropic unless you can at minimum provide support for your accusations and evidence of why such species can’t exist in Az. 
 

I’ll send you a live pic of my thriving two yr old Jubea at 2pm AZ time right now if that’s what it takes for you to admit you are wrong and naive on the species. Please advise asap"

My reply to AzulPalmsAZ : "Please do. If what you say is true "Jubea in full Sun for 22 and 23", and it is thriving without any minor sun scald, I will be amazed. I will consider that he is right, but why on earth didn't he simply abide by my request to post the image? Was it that difficult, or was he just pissed off that I supposedly was calling him a liar, and out of stubbornness refused to comply with my request. We may never know."

AzulPalmsAZ replied: "Says the person who hasn’t provided an image ever. I don’t think anyone other than you questions Aztropic authenticity, he furnished evidence. You provided nothing"

A 2nd "jab" 24 min. later from AzulPalmsAZ: " He provided actual images of his 15g Jubea looking extraordinary. Is there something wrong with your internet that you couldn’t see them? 
And also to confirm you disagree with university of Arizona on the viability of this species? https://cales.arizona.edu/extension/ornamentalhort/landscapemgmt/plantmaterial/palm.pdf

Tom- you are the only one who says these palms can’t survive in AZ., yet you can’t explain why or provide any evidence of why you believe this. i look forward to any reasoning you have Az legends who grow this species as well as your local university disagree with you so I am eager to learn how you arrived at your conclusion."

A 3rd "jab" 12 min. later from AzulPalmsAZ: "Since research is too much work for you take a look at the below. send over some evidence to backup your argument I can’t seem to find a thing to support your claims meanwhile actual universities support aztropic."

My reply to AzulPalmsAZ, and his link: "I hate to sound like a lawyer, but this so called evidence is purely hearsay. This copy of an old pamphlet is basically someones attempt to poorly plagiarize a booklet by Desmond Muirhead (published in approx. 1976 without copyright). He was a landscape architect who faded into obscurity. To be fair, there's some good info. in that book, but I would never recommend trying to find it. Because of the lack of copyright, many of the drawings in his booklet were used in this UofA pamphlet. One of most glaring errors in this unfortunate pamphlet is the assertion that Trachycarpus fortunei can be grown in full sun (if you like to see what a dying palm go's through). The ones at the UofA are planted in between buildings on campus, and they usually look miserable despite the shade.

BTW, where are those images you promised?"

This statement by AzulPalmsAZ was then quoted by aztropic: "BTW, where are those images you promised?"
aztropic added: "Tom,you just can't let it go,can you.🤷‍♂️ The world sees the real you through one attack after the next. Where's YOUR PROOF of what you MADE UP about me ever saying my 15 gallon trees had any afternoon shade?

Silas even fell on your sword and made up his own lie trying to stick up for his little buddy when he remanufactured your original quote quoting"Been closely following this thread since- it- started-.. Tom did no such thing.. His request and thoughts were Quite  respectful.. I saw where he first asked for a couple shots when making the statement about how they may do   -if-  treated like a Brahea..   ..And said " i'm  not  ...Note the word ..Not..  ..calling you ( -or anyone else- ) a liar "    ...I  HERE IS YOUR ORIGINAL QUOTE. "Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar, but in a different thread when I asked you about "full all day sun", I thought you said that they did get afternoon shade". FIND THAT QUOTE TOM, and post it here to prove YOU aren't the liar.

 Everyone knows,you absolutely DID call me a liar. Still haven't apologized to the group for your actions and demanding language, using words like "abide by my request" and "comply with my request". You are not in a position to make these kind of demands of others... The world is now getting to see the REAL Tom Birt through his writings.

When AzulPalmsAZ said he's got a young Jubaea growing in full sun,right away,you assign MORE specifics to hedge your bet if he posts a picture.. Now,according to Tom, an Arizona grown palm is not allowed to have even MINOR sun scald. I have hundreds of palms growing in my gardens,and EVERY SINGLE ONE has some defect like a little sunburn or brown tipping. Almost impossible to produce a Florida quality plant under outdoor Arizona conditions.

I told you from the beginning,you have started something that you just can't finish. Making up your lies and demands got you nowhere.You were offered multiple opportunities to bow out gracefully,yet you continue on. You have been exposed,and I'll bet,have lost the respect of many palmtalk readers. Just shameful..."

I don't expect many PT members will actually take the time to read all of this digest, but I just wanted to set the record straight. Thanks for stepping in. BTW, is that a Doctor Seuss image, or did you do a little "photoshopping"? Is that question considered to be too argumentative?

Hi 106˚, Lo 78˚

[iDesign]

1 hour ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I'm quite pleased you are taking the time to act as something of a mediator on this ridiculous discussion.

Nah... I'm mostly just pointing out how silly it is that a discussion about plants escalated to the level it did.

There is no official "audience" - nor "mediator". In full disclosure, I have a tiny connection to @aztropic in that he helped me obtain some "old men" palms a year ago. I also think he generally gives good advice on the forum. But that of course doesn't mean he knows everything about everything. Plant-related debates happen all the time... they're very welcome in fact!

I'm not totally sure what your intention was with your original 'Please don't think I'm trying to "call you out" as being a liar...' comment - but that appears to be where things went sideways. It's very possible you didn't mean to give offense, but it was obviously interpreted as implying Scott doesn't have much palm knowledge... which would be a silly assertion considering he's on the "Top Members" section of this forum, and respected by many.

Did he overreact and retaliate? I think so... he was obviously hurt by the possible slight (intended or not) and said some things back to you that were not very nice. I'm a mom of three (from college to elementary) and if I was in Arizona I would sit you BOTH down in the "simmer down chairs" until you apologize. 🪑🪑

The ironic part is that I was in your exact spot not all that long ago. At risk of bringing up a still somewhat-sore memory... I made what I thought was an innocent comment on this forum a year ago, and was absolutely SMASHED for it. I remember feeling so much regret for saying what I said, and my attempts to backtrack just made it worse. I recall thinking "Guess that's it... no more Palmtalk for me", which honestly made me want to cry.  But the good news is that a year later the very same people who thought I was a total idiot (including a not-to-be-named-on-this-thread member) are people I now consider to be "PalmTalk friends". I just had to let the hurt feelings go... and in retrospect my comment was pretty stupid. 🤔

Once in a while my husband and I will look at each other and say "Well that was a silly argument - want to just forget that ever happened?" And that's sometimes the best solution of all. I don't think either of you are going to "apologize" - and that's ok.  But if you agree that it's probably better to just "let it go" at this point, consider giving this post a "Like" (meaning you're ready to "let it go"). Perhaps you guys might even "like" each other's posts someday, as a "we're good" symbol. It's like kids in the playground (the boys more than the girls)... one day they look like they want to kill each other, but once one says "Hey, wanna play ball?" it's over.

Or you can keep arguing, and we'll just ignore the standoff ala "The Zax".

* Credit (on both photos): Jubaea illustration from the booklet posted by @AzulPalmsAZ above.  Underlying photos from Dr. Seuss illustrations. The first illustration turned out the best (and worked amazingly well with the Jubaea illustration!)... but this one is pretty funny as well. Photoshop is fun. 🙃

[Billeb]

 

-dale

[Tom in Tucson]

23 hours ago, Billeb said:

 

-dale

You're certainly entitled to your opinion (on this great forum), but I don't believe we've reached the point where we're "beating a dead horse". At least not yet. Before I "throw in the towel", I'd like to see the truth finally revealed.

We're slowly (but surely) making progress (albiet at a "snails pace") towards discovering a few facts of whether it's a wise decision to grow the Chilean Wine Palm in the Sonoran desert.

Here are 2 examples:

1) In this debate over the cultural results of trying to grow this palm in AZ, the following remarks may leave you "scratching your head". Caveat emptor:

aztropic initially stated: "The 15 gallon pots I have growing ARE in full,all day sun,and mine aren't burning..."

aztropic later stated: "I have hundreds of palms growing in my gardens,and EVERY SINGLE ONE has some defect like a little sunburn or brown tipping."

2) As I stated: "Before I cease posting any more useless comments on this topic I at least want to show anyone that's interested what the area where my palms grow looked like before it became overgrown: https://pbase.com/mamman/palms_in_casas_adobes"

That post has led me to reactivate my Pbase account today, and as a consequence, I am not only going to provide visual evidence of what this species of palm looks like in the Tucson area (with a far milder climate than "The Valley of the Sun"), but I will also start posting some more images on Palm Talk. Hopefully this trivial action will delight those that "get their kicks" from viewing images, like the vast majority of Face Book users.

The following images are both taken in the Tucson area. These are the only wine palms I know of in SOUTHEAST AZ. The 1st is a crappy shot (in the shade of a college building, and covered with pine needles) at the UofA in '12. The next (taken today) is growing in one of the few visible areas of my "jungle". It's pot-planted (look closely for the 3 gal. pot rim for scale). It's behind a Patric(k) Schaffer hybrid (Butia mutt x Parajubaea sunkha) to it's left. Even in this milder climate, sun scorching is an ever present danger.

 

 

Hi 106˚, Lo 77˚

Edited August 30, 2023 by Tom in Tucson

[Josue Diaz]

First one dropped 

[Banana Belt]

Regarding "Jubaea Seeds",  I have two older Jubaea with 12 foot tall trunks that have been flowering for over 10 years but have never produced seeds.  Why is that?   They are healthy, growthing very well and seem to try and form fruit, but the tiny fruit always abort and fall off before they get half inch in size.  Picture of my Palms from last Feb.