Big Island - why are these palms so rare?

[PalmsandLiszt]

29 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Somewhat off topic, but bear with me,  I am fascinated that the genus Dietes contains six species, five found in South Africa and one on Lord Howe Island.  (D. robinsoniana).  These two points are separated by 120 degrees of longitude and 7200 miles !  In addition, LHI is less than 10 million years old.

Reminds me of Pitcairnia feliciana, the only bromeliad not endemic to the Americas but which somehow also found its way to Africa and Australasia. Also within the past 10m years. Birds are presumed responsible. I suspect birds are also behind the Dietes anomaly.

[mnorell]

21 hours ago, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

I hear you on the indigenous forest, keep in mind that indigenous forest actually has a temperate appearance and adaptation, not a tropical one. That's because all the plants that migrated here without human help, ie pre-polynesian canoe plant arrival all came from temperate regions and 90% of the land area of Hawaii is temperate, not tropical. 

On additional interesting factoid is that both koa and ohia are no longer viable at low elevations because of lack of resistance to pathogens from tropical biomes. I am not a big fan of the junk trees that make up the lowland forests, namely albizia, African tulip and gunpowder trees along with the nasty waiwi, aka strawberry guava. At my elevation I can right at the border of the viable Koa belt but ohia won't grow. I use conifers as a substitute for Ohia. The conifers have a symbiotic relationship with koa, making the Koa stronger.

Axel, in fact the vast majority of pre-human-contact plants had their origins in tropical and subtropical regions, with a minority from temperate regions (and those mostly North American in origin). Please see a good analysis in this study.

Also, Hawai'i (except for the relict islets and seamounts to the northwest) lies entirely within the tropics and does have a variety of tropical climates due to elevation. However, the truly high-elevation areas of the Hawai'ian islands are generally desolate. The heavily forested areas lie in mid- to low-elevation areas, most concentrated in the windward sides of the islands (usually below about 5000') and so enjoy year-round moderate to warm temperatures depending on elevation, with plentiful rain. 

High-altitude tropical climates do differ from temperate climates, the latter of which are characterized by a stronger seasonal variation in temperature due to higher latitude and seasonal influences; and although temperate and even some alpine species may grow, adapt and thrive in high-altitude tropical climes, I would think that some, perhaps many, species that rely on cues of extreme seasonal temperature and daylength differences would find it a challenge to adapt to the more uniform (and much warmer) annual temperature and daylight regime in Hawai'i's mid-elevation forest zones.

[Than]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Depends on the plant / it's overall distribution / adaptability..  Both CA and AZ ( esp. ) have numerous plant species / a few plant families which are centered in the Tropics, Below the Tropic of Cancer for example.   Passiflora,  Aristiolochia,  Bouteloua,  Bursera,  certain Ferns = Asplenium,  for one... are a few "tropical" Genus with species here in AZ for example.  Palo Verde, our native Ironwood, and Ocotillo are also plants considered Tropical in origin.

Some people may twist in the wind on this but all Cacti, are tropical in origin.. yet a few grow as far north as Canada..

While many of our problem non natives do originate from Mediterranean climate regions, there are a few " Tropicals"  which can also be aggressive / invasive in CA ..warmer parts of the state at least..

Ultra / Equatorial Tropicals? Those would be about the only things where it is definitely too cold for them to spread away from a garden in CA -if they'd even survive themselves in an average garden long term out there themselves..

Hm yeah, I guess I was talking about most tropical palms that grow marginally in Mediterranean climates. I cannot imagine those becoming weeds. Is it me btw or more and more tropical plants become acclimatized here? I don't remember any monsteras outdoors when I was little but recently I see a few (including mine), left outdoors all winter and surviving. Also several types of ficus.

[CLINODAVE]

11 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Somewhat off topic, but bear with me,  I am fascinated that the genus Dietes contains six species, five found in South Africa and one on Lord Howe Island.  (D. robinsoniana).  These two points are separated by 120 degrees of longitude and 7200 miles !  In addition, LHI is less than 10 million years old.

Another oddity is the hypothesis that Hawaii's Acacia koa was transported, presumably by birds, from Hawaii to Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean.  I tend to defer to the academics and field researchers, but this particular colonization seems suspect.  Altho apparently phylogentic research of molecular data shows the two Acacias as identical.  And Hawaii's koa is most closely related to Australia'a A. melanoxylon.  Lotta acacia traveling going on!

[Silas_Sancona]

12 hours ago, CLINODAVE said:

Another oddity is the hypothesis that Hawaii's Acacia koa was transported, presumably by birds, from Hawaii to Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean.  I tend to defer to the academics and field researchers, but this particular colonization seems suspect.  Altho apparently phylogentic research of molecular data shows the two Acacias as identical.  And Hawaii's koa is most closely related to Australia'a A. melanoxylon.  Lotta acacia traveling going on!

That is certainly possible...  If the ancestral link between A. melanoxylon  and A. koa  produced seed which was attached to... or  encased within  a fleshy, bright red or orange Aril  ..like Acacia cyclops, or salicina  (  Fairly popular Australian Acacia sp. here  -Messy as H--- though, lol )   for example,  that is one way to get  birds ( ..or other seed dispersers )  to notice and move seed of those particular sp(s) around first,  ....compared to Acacia sps which lack that extra benefit ( for birds esp.  )  -generally speaking of course..

Any bird(s) capable of long distance flight, w/ a sweet tooth for Aril-producing plants =  high potential for depositing seed, while hop-scotching from island to island / between continents, depending of course on how long they can carry that seed  in their guts. 

Over time, each island puts this seedlings from X particular Acacia through it's own unique evolutionary filter, moulding new species from the old...

One possible idea anyway..

 

[Silas_Sancona]

21 hours ago, ego said:

Hm yeah, I guess I was talking about most tropical palms that grow marginally in Mediterranean climates. I cannot imagine those becoming weeds. Is it me btw or more and more tropical plants become acclimatized here? I don't remember any monsteras outdoors when I was little but recently I see a few (including mine), left outdoors all winter and surviving. Also several types of ficus.

Depends on the species overall adaptability, and if seed lands in the right spot -outside of a garden..  Canary Island Dates would be a species w/ a adaptive advantage in California ( and here in AZ ) for instance.

That said, seed of a Queen, hardier Archontophoenix sp / natural variety of x sp,  ..perhaps even " tropical " palms like Howea, Ravaena rivularis, ..or some of the cloud forest / cooler island growing Palm sps lands somewhere along a perennial stream, in a canyon somewhere in CA, where it doesn't get cold enough to kill those seedlings in winter and ..the opportunity is opened for a few of those seedlings to survive to adulthood / reproductive age, thus being able to begin the colonization / invasion process..

I myself might even toss in such palms as Areca ( Chrysalidocarpus lutescens ), Pygmy Dates, ..Possibly one of the Veitchia ( very low probability on that one, atm at least ) ..or, because it might  have an advantage over each parent, the Veitchia X Woodyetia cross  as having the potential  -as bare minimal as it might be-   to germinate and grow -unaided- in the right spot outside a garden in the most ideal of location(s) in CA.

Obviously, these kinds of occurrences would be very localized events, rather than one where -Queen, or Pygmy Date palms for example- might spread everywhere.. In California at least, each one of those potential " invaders " would be restricted to the most ideal  of ideal spots.



Regarding both Ficus and Monstera,

Ficus is a very widespread Genus, with plenty of species growing well beyond the " true " tropics..  Just south of Arizona,  there are 6-8 Ficus species which can be found growing in river carved canyons in Sonora, and northern Sinaloa Mexico, within some very un-tropical looking landscapes ( Look very Desert-y a good portion of the year anyway )  Range of others can extend up to where those local population(s) might experience more cold ..or drought, which also also helps fuel potential wider adaptability.

Monstera ( ..the most well known species at least ) originates in an area from Southern Mexico to Panama ( ..and probably into S. America ) Within it's range, it may grow in higher areas, where it is cooler,  ..and/or other spots where it experiences a little more drought than in other locales.

Collect and propagate clones ..or seed  from specimens from a cooler or drier extreme within in their range, and you get something that could turn out to be more adaptable outside it's ideal climate tolerance.. ( Monstera clone(s) which could survive more cold / lack of regular water for example )

Craziest thing i have come across -so far-  is the sight of a large Pothos growing in a tree ( at least 30ft in height ) in Hermosillo while doing some Street View touring.. 

Hermosillo can experience the same intensity of drought and heat as Phoenix usually does this time of year. More rainfall there, in summer esp.  but their yearly rainfall totals are more similar to Tucson, rather than Alamos or Culiacan ( Sinaloa ) both of which are wetter. Winters in Hermosillo may be a few deg warmer than here on average, but the difference isn't huge  ..Say compared to S. FL. or Hawaii. 

[CLINODAVE]

22 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Depends on the species overall adaptability, and if seed lands in the right spot -outside of a garden..  Canary Island Dates would be a species w/ a adaptive advantage in California ( and here in AZ ) for instance.

That said, seed of a Queen, hardier Archontophoenix sp / natural variety of x sp,  ..perhaps even " tropical " palms like Howea, Ravaena rivularis, ..or some of the cloud forest / cooler island growing Palm sps lands somewhere along a perennial stream, in a canyon somewhere in CA, where it doesn't get cold enough to kill those seedlings in winter and ..the opportunity is opened for a few of those seedlings to survive to adulthood / reproductive age, thus being able to begin the colonization / invasion process..

I myself might even toss in such palms as Areca ( Chrysalidocarpus lutescens ), Pygmy Dates, ..Possibly one of the Veitchia ( very low probability on that one, atm at least ) ..or, because it might  have an advantage over each parent, the Veitchia X Woodyetia cross  as having the potential  -as bare minimal as it might be-   to germinate and grow -unaided- in the right spot outside a garden in the most ideal of location(s) in CA.

Obviously, these kinds of occurrences would be very localized events, rather than one where -Queen, or Pygmy Date palms for example- might spread everywhere.. In California at least, each one of those potential " invaders " would be restricted to the most ideal  of ideal spots.



Regarding both Ficus and Monstera,

Ficus is a very widespread Genus, with plenty of species growing well beyond the " true " tropics..  Just south of Arizona,  there are 6-8 Ficus species which can be found growing in river carved canyons in Sonora, and northern Sinaloa Mexico, within some very un-tropical looking landscapes ( Look very Desert-y a good portion of the year anyway )  Range of others can extend up to where those local population(s) might experience more cold ..or drought, which also also helps fuel potential wider adaptability.

Monstera ( ..the most well known species at least ) originates in an area from Southern Mexico to Panama ( ..and probably into S. America ) Within it's range, it may grow in higher areas, where it is cooler,  ..and/or other spots where it experiences a little more drought than in other locales.

Collect and propagate clones ..or seed  from specimens from a cooler or drier extreme within in their range, and you get something that could turn out to be more adaptable outside it's ideal climate tolerance.. ( Monstera clone(s) which could survive more cold / lack of regular water for example )

Craziest thing i have come across -so far-  is the sight of a large Pothos growing in a tree ( at least 30ft in height ) in Hermosillo while doing some Street View touring.. 

Hermosillo can experience the same intensity of drought and heat as Phoenix usually does this time of year. More rainfall there, in summer esp.  but their yearly rainfall totals are more similar to Tucson, rather than Alamos or Culiacan ( Sinaloa ) both of which are wetter. Winters in Hermosillo may be a few deg warmer than here on average, but the difference isn't huge  ..Say compared to S. FL. or Hawaii. 

So is it safe to say those Sonora/Siniloa Ficus species would likely be able to thrive in your area?  Excluding other environmental factors, I would think the infrequent frost in Phoenix would permit them to grow.

[CLINODAVE]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:47 PM, Xenon said:

 

 

This paper: https://academic.oup.com/sysbio/article/61/3/426/1671441 has Pritchardia most closely related to Copernicia, with Washingtonia basal (diverging earlier) to the group that contains Pritchardia and Copernicia. It also supports an American origin for Pritchardia but with an initial colonization event in the central Pacific and the Hawaiian Prichardia being the result of colonization from the central Pacific. The earliest divergence within Pritchardia is seen in P. mitiaroana native to the Cook Islands while the Hawaiian Pritchardia are the result of adaptive radiation within the last few million years. P. minor (native to Kauai, the oldest major island) is the most basal member of the Hawaiian Pritchardia.

This paper: https://bmcecolevol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-23 also places P. mitiaroana, P. pacifica, and P. thurstonii basal to the Hawaiian Pritchardia with P. thurstonii the closest to the Hawaiian Pritchardia. This further supports the idea of dispersal of Pritchardia to Hawaii via the central Pacific.  Now how did the American ancestor arrive in the Cook Islands/Fiji? 🙂

Many thanks for your links to the cited papers.  As a reforester in HI -- and someone just fascinated by the origins of our islands' native flora -- this kind of phylogenetic research is one of the resources I use for determining what species to use in reforesting.  Unfortunately, Pritchardia seem to hybridize with one another fairly easily.  Combine that with the human impacts upon island vegetation, and you are aren't always sure which species you are looking at.  I know it is heresy in HI to say it, but I tend to like the S. Pacific species more!  Although if someone gifted me a true P. viscosa (or 2, or 3, or 30... lol), I wouldn't complain.  P. viscosa and P. shattauerii are my two faves, the former for its striking leaf structure, and the latter for its towering height at maturity.

[Silas_Sancona]

Just now, CLINODAVE said:

So is it safe to say those Sonora/Siniloa Ficus species would likely be able to thrive in your area?  Excluding other environmental factors, I would think the infrequent frost in Phoenix would permit them to grow.

Definitely..  While infrequent, there are a few decent-sized  F. petiolaris ( and palmeri ) around town.. F. brandegeei, a supposed 3rd form of F. petiolaris,  shouldn't have issues here as well ( if not already growing in a garden somewhere ) .. All three can grow in really dry areas of Baja and Sonora and could grow in similar ideal spots in the hills here. Some big specimens of the first two sps in S. Cal gardens as well.

  Had a F. pertusa that did fine ( ..until i killed it ) F. cotinifolia, insipida,  and trigonata  are grown ( infrequently ) by a couple nurseries in Tucson.. May be too cold down there, but i see no reason they wouldn't grow here.  Have a goal of acquiring each..

Someone i know in Tucson had told me that the F. pertusa " mother" trees they keep had recently started to set fertile fruit ..and that seedlings will pop up in other things placed near those specimens in the greenhouse they keep them in..

Only questionable sp(s) would be F. maxima,  and obtusifolia.. Don't know of anyone growing either species in AZ.. That said, Cascalote, Tara cacalaco  ( Formally included in Caesalpinia ) and a few other things grown here grow in the same areas of S. Sonora and Sinaloa as F. maxima  and obtusifolia ( among most of the other sp i listed from that area ) and has proven to be hardier than was assumed..  A nearby park in a cooler part of Chandler has several, large specimens growing in an area that isn't maintained / is fully exposed to the elements.

F. aurea, the FL strangler, has also been recorded in a few areas on the west side of Mexico as well..

Yea, any / all of those species could get damaged in one of our exceptionally rare severe freezes, but, esp. if large enough, would likely bounce back like a majority of the non native Ficus planted around town have in the past.  In the warmer, more developed parts of town at least..

With so many microclimates out in the desert ( foothills esp ) and gradual, but continued warming,  who knows what might survive if seed made its way to.. in the future.   Erythrina flabelliformis, and Gossypium thurberi  are just two examples of " tropical " plants which have endured since the overall climate here cooled down enough in the past to restrict them to the warmest spots here in AZ..
 

[Than]

Potted pothos survives our winter too, although with damage. I am tempted to try and plant one on the ground and see how it goes. 

[CLINODAVE]

On 6/16/2023 at 8:58 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

Definitely..  While infrequent, there are a few decent-sized  F. petiolaris ( and palmeri ) around town.. F. brandegeei, a supposed 3rd form of F. petiolaris,  shouldn't have issues here as well ( if not already growing in a garden somewhere ) .. All three can grow in really dry areas of Baja and Sonora and could grow in similar ideal spots in the hills here. Some big specimens of the first two sps in S. Cal gardens as well.

  Had a F. pertusa that did fine ( ..until i killed it ) F. cotinifolia, insipida,  and trigonata  are grown ( infrequently ) by a couple nurseries in Tucson.. May be too cold down there, but i see no reason they wouldn't grow here.  Have a goal of acquiring each..

Someone i know in Tucson had told me that the F. pertusa " mother" trees they keep had recently started to set fertile fruit ..and that seedlings will pop up in other things placed near those specimens in the greenhouse they keep them in..

Only questionable sp(s) would be F. maxima,  and obtusifolia.. Don't know of anyone growing either species in AZ.. That said, Cascalote, Tara cacalaco  ( Formally included in Caesalpinia ) and a few other things grown here grow in the same areas of S. Sonora and Sinaloa as F. maxima  and obtusifolia ( among most of the other sp i listed from that area ) and has proven to be hardier than was assumed..  A nearby park in a cooler part of Chandler has several, large specimens growing in an area that isn't maintained / is fully exposed to the elements.

F. aurea, the FL strangler, has also been recorded in a few areas on the west side of Mexico as well..

Yea, any / all of those species could get damaged in one of our exceptionally rare severe freezes, but, esp. if large enough, would likely bounce back like a majority of the non native Ficus planted around town have in the past.  In the warmer, more developed parts of town at least..

With so many microclimates out in the desert ( foothills esp ) and gradual, but continued warming,  who knows what might survive if seed made its way to.. in the future.   Erythrina flabelliformis, and Gossypium thurberi  are just two examples of " tropical " plants which have endured since the overall climate here cooled down enough in the past to restrict them to the warmest spots here in AZ..
 

so interesting.  As volatile as the climate seems to be -i.e. who knows what will happen next -- an overall warming trend should lead to northward movement of a lot of cool Mexican flora and fauna.

[Silas_Sancona]

16 minutes ago, CLINODAVE said:

so interesting.  As volatile as the climate seems to be -i.e. who knows what will happen next -- an overall warming trend should lead to northward movement of a lot of cool Mexican flora and fauna.

Agree totally.. In some cases, this is happening as i write..

Not to veer too far from topic, nor create another super long post,  but,  if you already follow the App, you might have noticed  ..if you look up certain " tropical " birds on iNaturalist, ...any that may occur near the west coast of Mexico / in northern / central Mexico, whose known presently documented range(s) comes close to the U.S. border,  you'll find some surprises which appear to be either expanding north out of Mexico into AZ and CA, ..or,  in other circumstances,  from AZ into California, Nevada and N..M. ( Birds assumed to be restricted to the Sonoran Desert / areas to the south in Mexico for instance, Ie:  Verdin, Vermilion Flycatcher,  Broad-Billed Hummingbird, Tropical Kingbird, Sulphur-Bellied Flycatcher, Harris Hawk, Black Vulture, Crested Caracara )

  Red Billed Tropicbird ( in S. Cal. ).. Several observations from around San Diego / So. Cal Bight last year / over the past few years.  Was thought to be an extremely rare visitor to offshore waters off San Diego / west of the Channel Islands.  Same with Magnificent Frigate Bird. 

While you may not see either each time you're at a local beach, or doing some near-shore fishing just beyond a beach, ..they could be considered a regular visitor along the coast of S. Cal. now.  

We've had a few Roseate Spoonbills and Wood Storks hanging around / regularly returning to  some of the restored wetland / groundwater recharge areas here in AZ the last few years. 

Probably the most unique "Tropical" bird sighting i've noted since living here?  Northern Jacana ..The " Jesus " Bird ( ...Because it can walk over lily pads and other floating vegetation effortlessly..  )

Was -at least- one that hung around Tucson for over a year, even through the winter.. Other sightings further south, north of the AZ / Mex. border, and near Casa Grande back in the 2000's. Supposedly a rare visitor to S. TX.  No observation records - that i've noted, from FL.  I missed being able to get my eyes on it / pictures by about a month ( Assumed it was too cold in Tucson at the time, and that  it had returned south into Mexico )

I also found an observation from Baja Sur of this guy last night.. May be the first observation -ever-  on the N.W. coast of Mexico /  West coast of N. America ( ..Which includes Mexico )...

Species: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/5301-Elanoides-forficatus

Baja Sur observation..

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/159573015

I'd see these in FL. quite often and Imo, probably one of the most exotic looking Birds of Prey in the Americas..  While this one might be an escapee ( no clue how someone would keep it in captivity ) To think it might be one ..of a few.. exploring new real estate west of the Mex. Plateau is pretty neat..


Birds ..and Bugs.   ....Because they can get around pretty easily,  compared to most other critters,  those are the things i keep track of the most when it comes to any interesting things which might be moving north from Mexico / west from Texas ( ...or extending their ranges north / west  out of AZ / N.M. )


Because we don't get the kind of freezes Texas can see,  if already reasonably adaptable,  esp. to heat / drought -at times,   animals ( ...and eventually plants )  that might take longer to get a secure foothold in TX, can have an easier time trying to do so here ( ...from the " Less chance X plant will suffer.. / newly established population(s) of X cold sensitive animal being killed off by...  a severe freeze on a relatively regular enough of a schedule to slow expansion "  viewpoint )  Obviously, it is quite dry here, esp at lower elevations, -for the time being at least-  which itself imposes it's own limits on what can  -and can't-  expand it's range north into the state / region though.

All in all, interesting stuff, all the way around..

[CLINODAVE]

6 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree totally.. In some cases, this is happening as i write..

Not to veer too far from topic, nor create another super long post,  but,  if you already follow the App, you might have noticed  ..if you look up certain " tropical " birds on iNaturalist, ...any that may occur near the west coast of Mexico / in northern / central Mexico, whose known presently documented range(s) comes close to the U.S. border,  you'll find some surprises which appear to be either expanding north out of Mexico into AZ and CA, ..or,  in other circumstances,  from AZ into California, Nevada and N..M. ( Birds assumed to be restricted to the Sonoran Desert / areas to the south in Mexico for instance, Ie:  Verdin, Vermilion Flycatcher,  Broad-Billed Hummingbird, Tropical Kingbird, Sulphur-Bellied Flycatcher, Harris Hawk, Black Vulture, Crested Caracara )

  Red Billed Tropicbird ( in S. Cal. ).. Several observations from around San Diego / So. Cal Bight last year / over the past few years.  Was thought to be an extremely rare visitor to offshore waters off San Diego / west of the Channel Islands.  Same with Magnificent Frigate Bird. 

While you may not see either each time you're at a local beach, or doing some near-shore fishing just beyond a beach, ..they could be considered a regular visitor along the coast of S. Cal. now.  

We've had a few Roseate Spoonbills and Wood Storks hanging around / regularly returning to  some of the restored wetland / groundwater recharge areas here in AZ the last few years. 

Probably the most unique "Tropical" bird sighting i've noted since living here?  Northern Jacana ..The " Jesus " Bird ( ...Because it can walk over lily pads and other floating vegetation effortlessly..  )

Was -at least- one that hung around Tucson for over a year, even through the winter.. Other sightings further south, north of the AZ / Mex. border, and near Casa Grande back in the 2000's. Supposedly a rare visitor to S. TX.  No observation records - that i've noted, from FL.  I missed being able to get my eyes on it / pictures by about a month ( Assumed it was too cold in Tucson at the time, and that  it had returned south into Mexico )

I also found an observation from Baja Sur of this guy last night.. May be the first observation -ever-  on the N.W. coast of Mexico /  West coast of N. America ( ..Which includes Mexico )...

Species: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/5301-Elanoides-forficatus

Baja Sur observation..

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/159573015

I'd see these in FL. quite often and Imo, probably one of the most exotic looking Birds of Prey in the Americas..  While this one might be an escapee ( no clue how someone would keep it in captivity ) To think it might be one ..of a few.. exploring new real estate west of the Mex. Plateau is pretty neat..


Birds ..and Bugs.   ....Because they can get around pretty easily,  compared to most other critters,  those are the things i keep track of the most when it comes to any interesting things which might be moving north from Mexico / west from Texas ( ...or extending their ranges north / west  out of AZ / N.M. )


Because we don't get the kind of freezes Texas can see,  if already reasonably adaptable,  esp. to heat / drought -at times,   animals ( ...and eventually plants )  that might take longer to get a secure foothold in TX, can have an easier time trying to do so here ( ...from the " Less chance X plant will suffer.. / newly established population(s) of X cold sensitive animal being killed off by...  a severe freeze on a relatively regular enough of a schedule to slow expansion "  viewpoint )  Obviously, it is quite dry here, esp at lower elevations, -for the time being at least-  which itself imposes it's own limits on what can  -and can't-  expand it's range north into the state / region though.

All in all, interesting stuff, all the way around..

Fascinating.  I did some further readings, and couldn’t help but wonder if a Mexican parrot might wander north.  Seems the Mexican Parrotlet is the northern most Mexican psittacine.  Ways to go yet, but who knows.

[Silas_Sancona]

52 minutes ago, CLINODAVE said:

Fascinating.  I did some further readings, and couldn’t help but wonder if a Mexican parrot might wander north.  Seems the Mexican Parrotlet is the northern most Mexican psittacine.  Ways to go yet, but who knows.

Thick Billed Parrot, a " Sky Island " native  used to roam the forests of the While Mountains and " island" in S. AZ until all but extirpated from AZ,  and is highly threatened where it hangs on in the Sierra Madre Occidental just south of the border.. Beautiful birds.. Desert Museum has a few used their breeding program.  There are several other significant efforts under way between the U.S. and Mexico to try and restore it's numbers / re-introduce it to certain areas of Southern AZ.  One link: https://wildlandsnetwork.org/news/thick-billed-parrot

Military Macaw would be the next " large " Parrot which could wander into AZ. ( not all that far away either ) ...if people leave it ..and it's habitat...  alone..  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/19020-Ara-militaris

You'd think the Mexican Parrolet would be the next small Psittacine to make it's way north.. ...it may,  but,  interestingly enough, Green Parakeet, another smaller parrot native to Eastern Mexico, may be trying to expand north and west ( was a recent iNat observation made in El Paso.  Another made in the mountains between Alamos and Creel back in 2015 ) so, ..We'll see.

While they were escapees initially, there are a few " Mexican " Parrots ( among others ) that have done quite well since establishing themselves in California ( S. Cal. esp ) Some are listed as endangered back in Mexico.

Some folks complain about the noise or mess they make but,  i'd rather have them around than not..  Link to the California Parrot Project: https://californiaparrotproject.org/index.html





 

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

On 6/14/2023 at 1:11 PM, mike in kurtistown said:

I thought that the reason Hawaii is considered tropical is that it never freezes. In fact, the temperature rarely ever goes below the upper 50's, which is what makes it possible to grow hundreds of Indo-Pacific species. But it's also not very hot - there are several tropical American palms that just won't grow here, and I suspect that it isn't hot enough.

My heat zone is the same as Alaska, so this explains why we have giant redwoods and cryptomeria on the farm. Most of the palms that do well for me seem to come from Madagascar, New Caledonia and other oceanic tropical climates. All time min here is 48F, but you are right that generally it doesn't drip below the upper 50's very often.

By Köppen climate guidelines our farm on Mauna Kea is just above the rainforest zone Af and is actually oceanic temperate Cfb. The Big Island contains 14 of the world's 17 climate zones. 

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

On 6/14/2023 at 11:21 AM, CLINODAVE said:

Yes, there’s a perception that the tropics are- by definition- “torrid.”  Likely stems from early explorers from temperate areas experiencing equatorial heat.  In fact, most climatologists define a tropical climate as one in which the minimum average temperature of the coldest month is 64.4F or higher.  Most low elevation Big Island experiences a higher average than that.  As one goes to higher elevations, many scientists determine that tropical submontane climate takes over, then tropical montane…

By this definition the climate at my elevation isn't tropical, the min average on the warmest month is 63F. In the Winter during the coldest month it's 57F. Many Summer Mornings are 59F. It rarely gets above 72F during the day. If it does it's for a couple of hours to maybe 75-78F. 

[CLINODAVE]

11 hours ago, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

By this definition the climate at my elevation isn't tropical, the min average on the warmest month is 63F. In the Winter during the coldest month it's 57F. Many Summer Mornings are 59F. It rarely gets above 72F during the day. If it does it's for a couple of hours to maybe 75-78F. 

You’re confusing min avg with avg min.  The average temperature of any day of your location’s warmest month is above 63F.  In addition to your preferred climate definition, your climate can also be referred to as tropical submontane or maybe even tropical montane.  It’s not really on a par with Alaska, give that coconuts grow quite close to your location.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:19 AM, CLINODAVE said:

You’re confusing min avg with avg min.  The average temperature of any day of your location’s warmest month is above 63F.  In addition to your preferred climate definition, your climate can also be referred to as tropical submontane or maybe even tropical montane.  It’s not really on a par with Alaska, give that coconuts grow quite close to your location.

I have a dwarf Samoan coconut that is fruiting. But Betel palms don't fruit here, neither do peach palms. Some palms get cold stress spots. I don't think anyone would ever claim that our climate is identical to Alaska. However, the heat zone is the same as Alaska, heat zone 1,  zero days above 30C. The USDA zone is 11b/12a, and the Köppen zone is oceanic temperate / montane tropical Cfb. The result is that I have giant coast redwoods and giant Alaska cedars growing all over the place and due to the lack of chill and lack of frost I can grow any palm that tolerates cool temperatures, high rainfall and acidic soils. I have a beautiful attalea cohune growing next to a big cryptomeria. But the criteria for growing things here is also if it can tolerate oceanic temperate conditions, the majority of the time the temp during the day is 18-22C at best with frequent overcast and drizzle. You are correct in that most flora from submontane and montane tropical régions do quite well here, but so does all the flora from oceanic temperate zones that don't require much chill. We do have spruces on the farm as well. See photos below. Look at the current weather, 67F in July, on par with coastal Northern California.