Latent Butia Damage

[BeyondTheGarden]

This is my biggest Butia, presumably odorata. 

Ultimate low this past winter only 21, but the cold was wet and in much volume. 

This damage only became evident (noticeable) this past week, probably because the fronds are pushing up and out 

Part of the newest spear is brown, down the length. It doesn't show well in the pic but the other half is nice and green. 

Another Butia odorata of similar size, and one much smaller, undamaged. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Jesse PNW

[Chester B]

Lots of damage has shown up the last couple of weeks with my palms and others in my area.  All non Trachycarpus.

[BeyondTheGarden]

 

 

9 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Lots of damage has shown up the last couple of weeks with my palms and others in my area.  All non Trachycarpus.

Summer heat seems to do that. I've still got dead palm foliage in my nice cool, shaded carport from where the rats went on a rampage in March... the dead fronds and leaflets are still green and every time I walk in there I think "hey that's still alive!  Oh wait nevermind"...

[SeanK]

Butias die from the inside out. You need to start treating it ASAP.

[BeyondTheGarden]

56 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Butias die from the inside out. You need to start treating it ASAP.

Hit it with so much copper fungicide that I wonder if it was too much.  Inside and out.  And covered with a tarp as we have a rare summer mist coming down at the moment.  I had a Mule that spear pulled from too much wet, about this time last year and it recovered even though I neglected it.  So I have some hope. 

[GregVirginia7]

Looks like it’s healing, given the new spear…that’s a good sign…saw your yard on this forum a while back when you were getting it started…wow! what a difference…tremendous growth. Is your move in the same region? Are you transplanting anything to the new house? Would be hard to leave such an established oasis. I’m still discovering damage the likes of which I’ve never seen. Came out this morning and an Brazoria frond was laying on the ground…it rotted at the base of the petiole where it meets the trunk…collapsed under its own weight…no doubt two nights this Christmas in single digits, I think 8 F. or so and two days below freezing did more damage than past winters with much longer duration cold…maybe not so much single digits but below freezing anyway. Was a weird mild winter with that single digit cold sandwiched in between that did it I think…palms just weren’t properly acclimated to the abrupt change…anyway, all the best on the move.

[BeyondTheGarden]

thanks @GregVirginia7, this place has come quite a way.  When I look at old pics and videos it's hard to believe that it ever looked so different.  

Sorry about your Sabal, is it big enough to be able to recover?  I have a small uresana that I thought was toast a couple months ago; no green anywhere.  But now it's pushing green.  Don't know if it will have enough summer to recharge for next winter.  

The move will be to the other side of the country.  North Carolina.  It will be my 3rd time living there and a better situation for my wife and kids.  At least that's what I'm hoping for.  It gets just about a few degrees colder in the winter there, solid 8a.  Here i'm on the border between 8a/8b.  But the summers there will be way better for both palms and camping at the lake. 

[GregVirginia7]

1 minute ago, Jesse PNW said:

thanks @GregVirginia7, this place has come quite a way.  When I look at old pics and videos it's hard to believe that it ever looked so different.  

Sorry about your Sabal, is it big enough to be able to recover?  I have a small uresana that I thought was toast a couple months ago; no green anywhere.  But now it's pushing green.  Don't know if it will have enough summer to recharge for next winter.  

The move will be to the other side of the country.  North Carolina.  It will be my 3rd time living there and a better situation for my wife and kids.  At least that's what I'm hoping for.  It gets just about a few degrees colder in the winter there, solid 8a.  Here i'm on the border between 8a/8b.  But the summers there will be way better for both palms and camping at the lake. 

Sounds great all around…lots of NC folk on this forum, too. Their winters seem to get a little tricky but sounds like you will be further south so that’s good…the Brazoria is fine…it only affected that one frond (just watch, I’ll be sorry I said that😏) but it’s only showing 2.5 fronds now after the winter haircut but it’s moving along nicely. Been to coastal NC…so close geographically to me but it’s like stepping into the tropics in the summertime. Happy travels.

[BeyondTheGarden]

2 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

the Brazoria is fine…it only affected that one frond (just watch, I’ll be sorry I said that😏) 

I have hope for my Butia but I've also learned the hard way not to be too confident.  Seems like every time I brag, I get put in my place.   

5 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

 Are you transplanting anything to the new house?

I have probably a hundred seedlings, mostly in 6 oz solo cups that will be easy to put in totes and stack in the bed of the truck. And some 1 gal's.  Mostly trachycarpus but a few other oddities.  There are a few trachy's in-ground that are still small enough that I could dig them up, maybe 3 or 5 gal size, have only been in ground for a year.  We'll see.  I'm also attempting to propogate a few things from cutting, and I just broke up some cactus pups.  Cactus are really a different topic, but I'm glad that there's native Opuntia in NC.  

I am really looking forward to starting a new garden, developing a brand new space.  But it will be the same story in 3 to 5 years as that's when I plan to make my way to Florida.

[GregVirginia7]

Speaking of cacti…just started, though potted, a cold hardy trio of Echinocereus rigidissimus…had to look the botanical name up AGAIN as I have a terrible time remembering botanical names 🙄…anyway, it’s really Rainbow cactus and in keeping with “cold hardy” I’m looking to start some cacti as a compliment to the cold hardy palms…though the hardiness temps for this cactus seem all over the place on the internet…I’ll watch them carefully this winter…

Really like these little things. Outdoor agave are already adding to the cold hardy mix…and the whale’s tongue ovatifolia winters in the pot! with only burlap cover in the single digits

I’m with you…the more variety the merrier and given I’m zone 7, I have to branch out!

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

5 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

…though the hardiness temps for this cactus seem all over the place on the internet…

 

This seems to be the case for many of the most interesting plants.  I have a couple Echinocereus that survived a terribly wet winter- reichenbachii and dasyacanthus.    I also have a Trichocereus grandiflorus hybrid that did great as well.  

"Hardiness" really is an incomplete term, or concept.  The idea of a plant being hardy to a zone, or a temperature, really depends upon many factors.  I'm with you on just trying things and keeping an eye on them, experience is the best teacher.  

I like that rainbow cactus, I'll look it up.  I don't like mixing tropical and desert in the same garden space, I like them to have differentiated spaces.  But I would love to do a bigger desert garden in the future. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

@GregVirginia7 where did you source that rainbow cactus from?  I just looked it up, I like it a lot.  And that genus seems to be one which is more tolerant of cold and wet.  

[GregVirginia7]

A place called Desert Noir…got the agaves there, too…very pleased with them.

https://desert-noir.myshopify.com

[jwitt]

@GregVirginia7

The picture of your rainbow cactus.

When I was in my early teens, I used to go to a camp in the Sacramento mountains of southern NM, a couple miles east of Cloudcroft. On one of my escapades of leaving(ditching) the camp, I climbed a peak near the camp. I found those cactus growing in sunny/rocky areas above 8000! And truthfully, probably approaching 9000'.  Brought one or 2 home to Rio Rancho and planted. Lived for decades before I lost track(moved, sold house). 

So yes they are very hardy. 

Very hardy!

The blooms were small and dull yellow. Somewhat uninteresting for a cactus.  But that cactus and banding!

 

[GregVirginia7]

Thank you…great story. I was that way, too…always wondering off into the woods of PA…not NM desert but equally fascinating in its own mountain geology and plant life…good to hear the cactus has 8-9 thousand feet of cold hardiness and longevity when brought down from there…but like our cold hardy palms, it’s all subject to environmental variables…will see if I can keep them going. My problem for the agaves and now these cacti is getting the full amount of sun they need…lots of surrounding large trees to keep things shaded till late morning…at 10 feet of trunk, my Trachy is the worst offender for the agaves but so far, so good…

[BeyondTheGarden]

I started a cold/wet cactus thread over on the "Tropical Looking Plants other than palms", if you guys have any other cold/wet tolerant cactus can you please add them to that list? I would appreciate it. (That list will probably become my purchase list

[BeyondTheGarden]

Ok seriously... it's the middle of June and it's 53 degrees and raining... 

If you're not from the PNW, it never rains here in summer time. Glad I noticed it, had to grab a tarp real quick. 

The garden does look great when it rains.  Unless there's a big dumb tarp covering the best looking palm.

[jwitt]

@GregVirginia7

Throw this in your back pocket. They were among rocky terrain(broken rock the size of a fist) in clearings of the forest. Good luck. Nice cactus that you can "touch"

"

The climate of Cloudcroft and the Sacramento Mountains is cooler and receives more precipitation and snowfall than the surrounding areas in West Texas and southern New Mexico.

Cloudcroft meets the criteria of a humid continental climate (Köppen: Dfb), if the 32 °F or 0 °C coldest-month isotherm is used. It is the southernmost urban area on the North American continent with such a climatic subtype.[10]"

From Wikipedia 

Edited June 18, 2023 by jwitt
Forest

[amh]

6 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

Ok seriously... it's the middle of June and it's 53 degrees and raining... 

If you're not from the PNW, it never rains here in summer time. Glad I noticed it, had to grab a tarp real quick. 

The garden does look great when it rains.  Unless there's a big dumb tarp covering the best looking palm.

Omega block 2023, hopefully not as long lived as omega block 2022.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Hadn't heard of that, had to look it up. 

https://www.wunderground.com/article/forecast/national/news/2023-06-05-omega-block-weather-pattern-united-states-forecast-early-june 

[GregVirginia7]

7 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

Ok seriously... it's the middle of June and it's 53 degrees and raining... 

If you're not from the PNW, it never rains here in summer time. Glad I noticed it, had to grab a tarp real quick. 

The garden does look great when it rains.  Unless there's a big dumb tarp covering the best looking palm.

😂…what a weather rollercoaster…stay dry!

[GregVirginia7]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

@GregVirginia7

Throw this in your back pocket. They were among rocky terrain(broken rock the size of a fist) in clearings of the forest. Good luck. Nice cactus that you can "touch"

"

The climate of Cloudcroft and the Sacramento Mountains is cooler and receives more precipitation and snowfall than the surrounding areas in West Texas and southern New Mexico.

Cloudcroft meets the criteria of a humid continental climate (Köppen: Dfb), if the 32 °F or 0 °C coldest-month isotherm is used. It is the southernmost urban area on the North American continent with such a climatic subtype.[10]"

From Wikipedia 

Thank you…will keep a close eye on them and be way more attuned to my palms as we see what an El Niño? winter brings here to the mid-Atlantic…

[BeyondTheGarden]

Mixed signals here.  Some new necrosis on some of the leaflet tips, but the center spear is definitely moving.   Weather has been cool so growth is slow. Mark is hard to see on spear, but  I put it there 4 or 5 days ago. 

[LeonardHolmes]

I've seen two large mature Butias in my NC neighborhood that look dead.  One is completely grey and the other has some mature leaves still green but no new growth.  We hit 18 degrees on 12/24 and we were below freezing for 36 hours.  Many others look okay.  I assume that the owners of those two didn't really understand the importance of treating spear pull. Yours looks great in comparison, and I think you caught it in time.

[BeyondTheGarden]

This is interesting.  The center frond/spear has continued to look more dead, but also continued pushing growth.  I've been pulling on it every couple days.  Today it let go, but the part that snapped looks alive and the decay is all up a couple inches above the white, healthy looking flesh.   I think she might pull through.  I'm guessing it broke because I've been pulling in it every couple days... I think thats called loving your plants to death.