Coconut palm 9a/9b palm coast Florida and need advice on crowding Sylvester/frozen coco

[Gottagrowemall]

Maypan coconut has been in the ground as a 7 gallon for close to 3 years now. It was unprotected year 1, probably burnt about 60% or more of foliage, year 2 it was poorly protected (I was not aware it needed heat source plus covering), year 3 I protected it for all the nights in the 20s with sheets and incandescent Christmas lights…. Then I took them off too soon and it got burned again by the next frost.

Anyways, she always rebounds by this time of year. If we can get a couple warm winters or I can protect better maybe she’ll get some size.

 

next topic, you guys can clearly see I planted my Sylvester and beccariophoenix alfreddii way too close together. It doesn’t help that I haven’t pruned either in months but what would you do here? I have no plans to dig up and transplant either one because they’re growing healthy together but you can’t really see the frozen coconut which is disappointing. Should I stake it with some pull to the right in hopes it grows out a bit?

[Gottagrowemall]

One thing I’d like to mention too for anyone seeing this and thinking they’d like to try it is  I have a few shrub sprinklers that gives this area lots of consistent watering, fertilization and great soil from the mulch that gets max growth from April to December which is probably the only reason why this tree can afford to burn hard and survive. If your tree isn’t in peak condition by the first cold snap it’s going to have a hard time making it through the following months 

[sonoranfans]

Sorry to say this but I would cut the sylvester down.  An adult alfredii  should be about 15' from another palm trunk as they are wider than bismarckia.  You could just chop green leaves to make them both fit, but that will cause a notable slowing of growth for each.  Plants need time and energy to produce the chlorophyll in those leaves.  The normally retract and save the chlorophyll when they drop dead leaves.  Perhaps you co8uld chop the alfredii if you like the sylvester more but it is a very common case of "just too close".  We all do this, I have had to remove 4 late juvenile or mature palms for this reason.  As far as leaf damage from abrasion in wind, I'd give a good edge to sylvestris which can have a hundred leaves in the crown which have pointed and sharp tips.  As your palms get larger you may find yourself saying "what was I thinking.  One I saw the other day was inexplicable, a cidp double with 3' thick trunks(4-5' trunk) with asabal palmetto planted within 3' of one of then and the whole mess was only 6' from the house.  My thoughts were 1) that sabals crown in overwhelmed by that big CIDP crown but then I though that house is awful close to o those CIDP's.  They had them trimmed up a bit but the future looks difficult for maintenance and survival of the palmetto and the shingle roof on the house!   I cut down my own sylvestris years ago.  It was producing ~ 40 leaves a year so lots of hazardous trimming and eye protection must be worn as leaflets can cut skin let alone eyeballs.

[Merlyn]

As a first guess I think the Alfredii will outgrow the Sylvester.  I planted a couple of semi-trunking Sylvesters and none are more than 8-10' total height after ~4 years.  The Alfredii are all 15-20' tall and totally dwarfing the Sylvesters.  I do have an Alfredii that's about 10-12' center-to-center with a Pindo, and they fit together okay.  The Alfredii will probably grow up and over the Pindo in another year.  I'd guess that Alfredii will more-or-less double in height this year if you give it a bit of extra Magnesium Sulfate.  And of course if LB/TPPD shows up in your neighborhood that Sylvester will die...

[Gottagrowemall]

8 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

As a first guess I think the Alfredii will outgrow the Sylvester.  I planted a couple of semi-trunking Sylvesters and none are more than 8-10' total height after ~4 years.  The Alfredii are all 15-20' tall and totally dwarfing the Sylvesters.  I do have an Alfredii that's about 10-12' center-to-center with a Pindo, and they fit together okay.  The Alfredii will probably grow up and over the Pindo in another year.  I'd guess that Alfredii will more-or-less double in height this year if you give it a bit of extra Magnesium Sulfate.  And of course if LB/TPPD shows up in your neighborhood that Sylvester will die...

That's true. I haven't seen the LB/TPPD here but it's probably inevitable. Maybe if I prune the sylvester pretty good and take off some of those lower green leaves it will help to slow it down. I really love both of these palms and i'd be way more likely to try to dig one up and move it than cut one down. I like your synopsis. Since they're so close together is it possible to fertilize one and not the other lol?

[Gottagrowemall]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Sorry to say this but I would cut the sylvester down.  An adult alfredii  should be about 15' from another palm trunk as they are wider than bismarckia.  You could just chop green leaves to make them both fit, but that will cause a notable slowing of growth for each.  Plants need time and energy to produce the chlorophyll in those leaves.  The normally retract and save the chlorophyll when they drop dead leaves.  Perhaps you co8uld chop the alfredii if you like the sylvester more but it is a very common case of "just too close".  We all do this, I have had to remove 4 late juvenile or mature palms for this reason.  As far as leaf damage from abrasion in wind, I'd give a good edge to sylvestris which can have a hundred leaves in the crown which have pointed and sharp tips.  As your palms get larger you may find yourself saying "what was I thinking.  One I saw the other day was inexplicable, a cidp double with 3' thick trunks(4-5' trunk) with asabal palmetto planted within 3' of one of then and the whole mess was only 6' from the house.  My thoughts were 1) that sabals crown in overwhelmed by that big CIDP crown but then I though that house is awful close to o those CIDP's.  They had them trimmed up a bit but the future looks difficult for maintenance and survival of the palmetto and the shingle roof on the house!   I cut down my own sylvestris years ago.  It was producing ~ 40 leaves a year so lots of hazardous trimming and eye protection must be worn as leaflets can cut skin let alone eyeballs.

Thank you. That does make me a little nervous the idea of the sylvesters spikes rubbing again the alfreddii. It's hard to see from the pictures but the sylvester is 12 feet off the house and the alfreddii is like 9.5 feet, it's planted deeper in the bed. the Alfreddii is leaning forward a little too. it was loose in the ground from the hurricanes last year but i stake it really hard and just went to wiggle it and it's pretty firm in the ground now. 

[Merlyn]

@Gottagrowemallyou could definitely dig up the Sylvester and transplant it.  One reason mine are smaller is that both have been transplanted when they were a little bit smaller than yours.  This one had roughly 2-3 feet of trunk...

To move it I tied up the fronds and "rolled" it out of the hole.  I had my wife help me roll the root ball onto one of those convertible 2-wheeler carts that lays flat.  Then we took it down the driveway to the new spot and "rolled" it across the mulched area to the new spot.  It took about a year to start really growing normally again, but looks fine now 2 years later.  This was easily 300-500lb and ultra-stabby, so it was NOT easy to move.

I've been considering all my Phoenix species as potentially dead.  Sylvesters within 1-2 miles of me are dying off, so it's almost inevitable that it'll end up here...

[sonoranfans]

I think sylvestris is typically too fast to plan as understory for alfredii.  I chose serenoa repens and p. rupicolas nearby.  At 11' away those rupicolas fit under my alfredii at 12+ years in the ground from 3 gallons.

[Gottagrowemall]

22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I think sylvestris is typically too fast to plan as understory for alfredii.  I chose serenoa repens and p. rupicolas nearby.  At 11' away those rupicolas fit under my alfredii at 12+ years in the ground from 3 gallons.

can I see a picture of your alfredii? Mine was a medium/small 15 gallon about 2 years ago

[sonoranfans]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:08 PM, Gottagrowemall said:

can I see a picture of your alfredii? Mine was a medium/small 15 gallon about 2 years ago

I tried taking a pic but I do not have enough unobstructed distance to get the whole palm in without a wide angle lens which scrunches the image.  To stand within 25' and look up at it is to understand its size.  I measured it at about 35' wide leaf tip to leaf tip.  Once they get that big, I have to back off to get the whole height and then other palms are in the way, obstructing the view.  Here is a pic with a 12-14' rupicola triple under it, only pic angle here is within 15-18 feet.  Second pic is using a little wide angle about 25-30mm setting on my 17-55mm canon EFS lens  Second pic shows at least the outline of the width if you look at the horizontal leaves.  Its a wider palm than it is tall I think   Unfortunately some image compression is going to happen due to the 25-30mm lens setting.  This palm was a big surprise, I never planned on it getting this big, no I didnt know at the time it would be so wide as to encroach on the rupicolas as it was a new species.  Fortunately only one leaf from the BA is contacting the top of the rupicola crown.

[Gottagrowemall]

20 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I tried taking a pic but I do not have enough unobstructed distance to get the whole palm in without a wide angle lens which scrunches the image.  To stand within 25' and look up at it is to understand its size.  I measured it at about 35' wide leaf tip to leaf tip.  Once they get that big, I have to back off to get the whole height and then other palms are in the way, obstructing the view.  Here is a pic with a 12-14' rupicola triple under it, only pic angle here is within 15-18 feet.  Second pic is using a little wide angle about 25-30mm setting on my 17-55mm canon EFS lens  Second pic shows at least the outline of the width if you look at the horizontal leaves.  Its a wider palm than it is tall I think   Unfortunately some image compression is going to happen due to the 25-30mm lens setting.  This palm was a big surprise, I never planned on it getting this big, no I didnt know at the time it would be so wide as to encroach on the rupicolas as it was a new species.  Fortunately only one leaf from the BA is contacting the top of the rupicola crown.

Thank you for taking those pictures, i'm sure it wasn't easy. The fronds really do look very coconut like at that size. I have some thinking and planning to do.