If ya got 'em, smoke 'em!

[Hillizard]

Against the odds, one of my smoke tree seedlings, Psorothamnus (Dalea) spinosus,  managed to survive this past winter outdoors in a tree pot. I can't count how many seedlings of this species I've been unable to grow up to this stage. I'll consider it a success if I get even one bloom on it in the next few years. I don't plan to put it in the ground in the near term.

[Tom in Tucson]

Even at this small stage mine bloomed (deep indigo). Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. I've lost several when I changed anything at all!

Hi 109˚, Lo 83˚

[Hillizard]

17 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Even at this small stage mine bloomed (deep indigo). Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. I've lost several when I changed anything at all!

Hi 109˚, Lo 83˚

Thanks for your advice Tom. Very glad to know I could expect a bloom or two even at this stage!! I'm glad this one is planted in a tree pot and won't need to be repotted anytime soon. All of the seedling P. schottii I was growing alongside this one didn't make it through the winter. Guess I should have kept them indoors for a year or two.

[JeskiM]

Oh, I've smoked them all right.  Been able to germinate a hundred of them over the years and all hundred of them are smoked by mid-summer.

What is the soil mix in that pot ?

I've tried pure sand. Sand mixed with soil. Decomposed granite, etc.  Or is it more of a watering (too much) problem ?

I am still trying to figure out the secret with this species.

If I a ever in Tucson I may just buy a few at the nurseries there and bring them home with me since the seed route doesn't seem to be working for me.

-Matt

[Tom in Tucson]

4 hours ago, JeskiM said:

Oh, I've smoked them all right.  Been able to germinate a hundred of them over the years and all hundred of them are smoked by mid-summer.

What is the soil mix in that pot ?

I've tried pure sand. Sand mixed with soil. Decomposed granite, etc.  Or is it more of a watering (too much) problem ?

I am still trying to figure out the secret with this species.

If I a ever in Tucson I may just buy a few at the nurseries there and bring them home with me since the seed route doesn't seem to be working for me.

-Matt

Here in the Tucson area these are extremely hard to find. I only know of one native plant grower that has figured out their mysterious requirements of cultivation. You'd be far better off trying to buy some in the Palm Springs area.

Hi 110˚, Lo 79˚

[Silas_Sancona]

31 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Here in the Tucson area these are extremely hard to find. I only know of one native plant grower that has figured out their mysterious requirements of cultivation. You'd be far better off trying to buy some in the Palm Springs area.

Hi 110˚, Lo 79˚

Both DS and the Spade have offered them.. Last i'd seen, Nursery #2 had 5gals. 

Considering the peculiarities of these,  i've always wondered how those plants offered had done after they were planted.

[Hillizard]

33 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Here in the Tucson area these are extremely hard to find. I only know of one native plant grower that has figured out their mysterious requirements of cultivation. You'd be far better off trying to buy some in the Palm Springs area.

Hi 110˚, Lo 79˚

Agreed Tom. I once saw a nicely grown, affordable potted specimen on eBay that I passed on purchasing. Getting that one would have saved me years of waiting and disappointment. No nurseries here in NorCal would bother stocking this species.

[Hillizard]

5 hours ago, JeskiM said:

Oh, I've smoked them all right.  Been able to germinate a hundred of them over the years and all hundred of them are smoked by mid-summer.

What is the soil mix in that pot ?

I've tried pure sand. Sand mixed with soil. Decomposed granite, etc.  Or is it more of a watering (too much) problem ?

I am still trying to figure out the secret with this species.

If I a ever in Tucson I may just buy a few at the nurseries there and bring them home with me since the seed route doesn't seem to be working for me.

-Matt

Matt: The seed for this particular plant started out in a commercial seedling mix (probably peat & perlite) in a peat pot last year. I put it in a south-facing window, indoors, under a hi-intensity LED lamp designed for horticultural use (this was probably what helped the most). I can't recall if it was also on a heating pad? After several sets of leaves developed, I moved it into my sunroom for a few months. Later I sunk that peat pot in a treepot of sandy soil to minimize root disturbance. I put it outdoors in an eastern exposure. The one you see is the only one that survived our last winter. I thought it was dead but it resprouted in late spring. Just like with some palms that look like goners, patience is a virtue with some desert-adapted plants like this. Regardless, it's possible this specific plant has an individual genetic makeup that allowed it to weather our local conditions and its survival had less to do with my horticultural nursing. I still don't know what will happen this coming winter... 🤔 BTW, I lost a Larrea tridentata (creosote bush) in a pot but the one in clay in my front yard is still holding on and even bloomed last year. Go figure.

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, Hillizard said:

Matt: The seed for this particular plant started out in a commercial seedling mix (probably peat & perlite) in a peat pot last year. I put it in a south-facing window, indoors, under a hi-intensity LED lamp designed for horticultural use (this was probably what helped the most). I can't recall if it was also on a heating pad? After several sets of leaves developed, I moved it into my sunroom for a few months. Later I sunk that peat pot in a treepot of sandy soil to minimize root disturbance. I put it outdoors in an eastern exposure. The one you see is the only one that survived our last winter. I thought it was dead but it resprouted in late spring. Just like with some palms that look like goners, patience is a virtue with some desert-adapted plants like this. Regardless, it's possible this specific plant has an individual genetic makeup that allowed it to weather our local conditions and its survival had less to do with my horticultural nursing. I still don't know what will happen this coming winter... 🤔 BTW, I lost a Larrea tridentata (creosote bush) in a pot but the one in clay in my front yard is still holding on and even bloomed last year. Go figure.

These can definitely be about as challenging as Psorothamnus  to get going..  At least in pots.. At least one nursery i know of has even slowed on offering 1gal sized plants at their sales, choosing to grow them out to 5gal instead, which  -they say-  are much easier to establish after planting.  Once in the ground, they're tough as nails ..and look -reasonably- decent if given a light trim 1x/ year / grown as patio - type small " trees "

On the other hand, I see seedlings of all sizes quite often in some of the most inhospitable -looking places out in the desert / parks retaining natural vegetation though..


 

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

These can definitely be about as challenging as Psorothamnus  to get going..  At least in pots.. At least one nursery i know of has even slowed on offering 1gal sized plants at their sales, choosing to grow them out to 5gal instead, which  -they say-  are much easier to establish after planting.  Once in the ground, they're tough as nails ..and look -reasonably- decent if given a light trim 1x/ year / grown as patio - type small " trees "

On the other hand, I see seedlings of all sizes quite often in some of the most inhospitable -looking places out in the desert / parks retaining natural vegetation though..


 

Here's an example of a " mini " tree- sized Creosote bush.. 



 

[JeskiM]

Creosote is the other species that I am having the same problem with. They germinate readily and after a few months they all die at once.  I can't tell if it's a damping off of the seedlings or too much or too little water. I do germinate mine outdoors and it could be sudden swings in temperature and humidity that we can see in the spring-time around here. The ones that have lasted the longest seemed to have been in sandy soil. My guess is that even the sandy soil in the pot retains more moisture than I would expect because I do recall that the sand I used was pretty fine grain. ... maybe too fine. 

I think I may try them again this coming spring but spread them around numerous pots with different soil mixes located in different light intensities, rain protection etc.  I'll try a mix that has much larger grains this next time around. Now I just need to find some seeds again as I am all out of seed attm.

I mentioned Tucson nurseries because the only one that I have known that sells them is Spadefoot.  They don't ship plants, and from what I have gathered in this thread, they likely would not survive shipping too well anyways.

-Matt

 

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, JeskiM said:

Creosote is the other species that I am having the same problem with. They germinate readily and after a few months they all die at once.  I can't tell if it's a damping off of the seedlings or too much or too little water. I do germinate mine outdoors and it could be sudden swings in temperature and humidity that we can see in the spring-time around here. The ones that have lasted the longest seemed to have been in sandy soil. My guess is that even the sandy soil in the pot retains more moisture than I would expect because I do recall that the sand I used was pretty fine grain. ... maybe too fine. 

I think I may try them again this coming spring but spread them around numerous pots with different soil mixes located in different light intensities, rain protection etc.  I'll try a mix that has much larger grains this next time around. Now I just need to find some seeds again as I am all out of seed attm.

I mentioned Tucson nurseries because the only one that I have known that sells them is Spadefoot.  They don't ship plants, and from what I have gathered in this thread, they likely would not survive shipping too well anyways.

-Matt

 

They don't ship either but Desert Survivors is the other nursery in Tucson that has offered Smoke tree also at their sales ( 1 and 5gals ).  I'd bet there are a couple other nurseries there, and  ..at least one up here.. that sell them as well..

W/ Creosote, sandy-er / grittier soil seems to be preferred -at least here-   Not sure swings in temps / humidity would significantly effect seedlings since they experience similar ( ...or more extreme ) Wx - related swings here and survive. 

Devil's Claw is another tricky  true " desert " plant,  particularly the perennial sp..  That said, i might have finally cracked the code on getting seedlings going. Getting seed to germinate appears to be pretty easy, once you know what to do.. Want to apply the same " experiment " with Creosote " as well.


The one unique, desert native i have yet to see  -anyone-  grow / offer:  Rhatany ( Genus Krameria ) Tried seed myself a couple years ago but got no where.. Planning on trying again though.

[Tom in Tucson]

9 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

They don't ship either but Desert Survivors is the other nursery in Tucson that has offered Smoke tree also at their sales ( 1 and 5gals ).  I'd bet there are a couple other nurseries there, and  ..at least one up here.. that sell them as well..

W/ Creosote, sandy-er / grittier soil seems to be preferred -at least here-   Not sure swings in temps / humidity would significantly effect seedlings since they experience similar ( ...or more extreme ) Wx - related swings here and survive. 

Devil's Claw is another tricky  true " desert " plant,  particularly the perennial sp..  That said, i might have finally cracked the code on getting seedlings going. Getting seed to germinate appears to be pretty easy, once you know what to do.. Want to apply the same " experiment " with Creosote " as well.


The one unique, desert native i have yet to see  -anyone-  grow / offer:  Rhatany ( Genus Krameria ) Tried seed myself a couple years ago but got no where.. Planning on trying again though.

 

The lady who runs Nighthawk Native Nursery (520) 981-7136. Bernadette Jilka is the person I referred to above who has mastered the art of growing smoke trees. Her nursery is located in Avra Valley (just west of Tucson). I don't think she has re-established her web site. She always attends the Tohono Chul plant sales, and a nicer person would be hard to find. Let us know what you find out if you call her.

Hi 109˚, Lo 74˚

Edited August 5, 2023 by Tom in Tucson

[Tom in Tucson]

4 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

 

The lady who runs Nighthawk Native Nursery (520) 981-7136. Bernadette Jilka is the person I referred to above who has mastered the art of growing smoke trees. Her nursery is located in Avra Valley (just west of Tucson). I don't think she has re-established her web site. She always attends the Tohono Chul plant sales, and a nicer person would be hard to find. Let us know what you find out if you call her.

Hi 109˚, Lo 74˚

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, Tom in Tucson said:

The lady who runs Nighthawk Native Nursery (520) 981-7136. Bernadette Jilka is the person I referred to above who has mastered the art of growing smoke trees. Her nursery is located in Avra Valley (just west of Tucson). I don't think she has re-established her web site. She always attends the Tohono Chul plant sales, and a nicer person would be hard to find. Let us know what you find out if you call her.

Hi 109˚, Lo 74˚

I've heard a lot of good things about her from the usual suspects..  From what i was told, she doesn't really open her nursery to walk in retail, but often supplies various things to the Spade and DS.  Was also told there's been a bit of a scramble to fill a void created after ..not sure which.. bigger native plant grower creased operations ...either last year, or  sometime in '21 down there.  

 

[Hillizard]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:29 AM, Hillizard said:

Against the odds, one of my smoke tree seedlings, Psorothamnus (Dalea) spinosus,  managed to survive this past winter outdoors in a tree pot. I can't count how many seedlings of this species I've been unable to grow up to this stage. I'll consider it a success if I get even one bloom on it in the next few years. I don't plan to put it in the ground in the near term.

My Psorothamnus is growing well during the latest heatwaves, although I'm probably watering it too often! This picture below if from today. 

[aztropic]

Not much to look at most of the year,but when they bloom,they ARE spectacular. This one is planted just outside my neighborhood,and blooms early June,every year. 

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona 

[Hillizard]

3 hours ago, aztropic said:

Not much to look at most of the year,but when they bloom,they ARE spectacular. This one is planted just outside my neighborhood,and blooms early June,every year. 

 

aztropic 

Mesa, Arizona 

Wow! I mean just WOW! Thanks for sharing those pictures.  I'd just be happy getting a few dozen flowers in a couple more years.

[JeskiM]

 

+1 on that Wow !

Does anyone know of a source for these online ?

I guess I may have to re-attempt these from seed again.

-Matt

 

[ahosey01]

Honestly these are often the largest plant in their native range, which is basically the washes in the hottest and driest part of the country.  I've seen some 15-20ft tall ones in habitat near Havasu looking just fine in years they get 3-4" of rain.  If you're watering more than 4x a year and you have any real soil, you might be overwatering.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, JeskiM said:

 

+1 on that Wow !

Does anyone know of a source for these online ?

I guess I may have to re-attempt these from seed again.

-Matt

 

Check the seed catalog  from Theodore Payne, Mojave Desert Land Trust's seedbank,  ..among some other sources here.  Theodore Payne ..and some other sources occasionally offer seed of some of the other " western "  Psorothamnus sps as well..

If you're ever in the area, Desert Survivors occasionally offers 1gals ..Maybe 5's. Typically at the upcoming Monsoon and Fall sales.

Used to be a seed source for the species from New Mexico, P. scorparius  but think they shut down their online store . I'm sure someone in N.M. could go directly to one of their locations and mail you seed though.