Dwarf butia

[Gallop]

Anyone else growing a dwarf Butia that looks like this? 

[Dwarf Fan]

Do you know which type of Dwarf Butia it is?

Archeri

Arenicola

Paraguayensis

Lallemantii

Matogrossensis

Microspadix

???

 

[Gallop]

Seed was from RPS as Archeri, however I don’t think it’s archeri. There are apparently two forms of archeri. Thought it might be the archeri var archeri form however I don’t think it is.  I have a couple arenicola, it’s not that. I also have paraguayensis and it definitely doesn’t resemble paraguayensis. What ever it is it’s cold tolerant. My paraguayensis had spear pull this past winter and this one was just fine. I believe this palm is going on 8yrs old and maybe it will continue to get bigger not sure?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Gallop

[Gallop]

A couple more pictures 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Gallop

[Dwarf Fan]

Maybe send a PM to Alberto in Brazil he knows Butias extremely well and might have some insight as to what Dwarf Butia species it is. Whatever it turns out to be you are fortunate to have such a nice looking Dwarf Butia! She may have taken her time getting ready, but she sure come out a real beauty.

If you ever get any seeds in the future that you would be willing to part will please keep me in mind.

[Pal Meir]

2 hours ago, Gallop said:

Seed was from RPS as Archeri, however I don’t think it’s archeri. There are apparently two forms of archeri. Thought it might be the archeri var archeri form however I don’t think it is.  I have a couple arenicola, it’s not that. I also have paraguayensis and it definitely doesn’t resemble paraguayensis. What ever it is it’s cold tolerant. My paraguayensis had spear pull this past winter and this one was just fine. I believe this palm is going on 8yrs old and maybe it will continue to get bigger not sure?

This seedling is from RPS also labeled as B archeri. I gave it away in 2008, so I don't know if it is still alive … Did your Butia look like this one when it was young?

[freakypalmguy]

Whatever it is it’s a beauty, very petite leaflets. Very different from my RPS grown plants.
 

I have a bunch of plants, both bought and grown from RPS seeds all 15 to 20ish yrs old, , they all ended up looking different and I’ve never been able to get Any definitive answer on what species they are from any of the experts, so I’ve had to learn to just enjoy them as a dwarf, Butia species.

[Gallop]

21 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

This seedling is from RPS also labeled as B archeri. I gave it away in 2008, so I don't know if it is still alive … Did your Butia look like this one when it was young?

Yes, it did.

[Gallop]

22 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Maybe send a PM to Alberto in Brazil he knows Butias extremely well and might have some insight as to what Dwarf Butia species it is. Whatever it turns out to be you are fortunate to have such a nice looking Dwarf Butia! She may have taken her time getting ready, but she sure come out a real beauty.

If you ever get any seeds in the future that you would be willing to part will please keep me in mind.

I’ve communicated with most all the Butia experts and no one seems to know.  I’ve come to the realization Butia needs to be studied more. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gallop

[Gallop]

14 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

Whatever it is it’s a beauty, very petite leaflets. Very different from my RPS grown plants.
 

I have a bunch of plants, both bought and grown from RPS seeds all 15 to 20ish yrs old, , they all ended up looking different and I’ve never been able to get Any definitive answer on what species they are from any of the experts, so I’ve had to learn to just enjoy them as a dwarf, Butia species.

Thanks Matt, I agree with your statement there are several plants in my collection I’ve tried to identify with no luck, I’m learning I’ll just have to enjoy them as something special

[freakypalmguy]

Here some pics of what I’ve grown over the years as dwarf Butia, all plants are 15 to 20 years old.

This plant was Sold to me by A reputable grower that swore up and down, and even years later that these are the real thing, he had the plants and knew how they were pollinated. This one is hard to get a picture of because it’s in between two of my other plants, it is also mostly shade grown because of the canopy from those plants. It gets a ton of water as it is right at the edge of my lawn, and also the shade of contributed to its large appearance, it was much more compact, and the other plants were smaller!

 

 

[freakypalmguy]

Two of these are from RPS grown plants, and one of them is from a small seedlings from a grower, all at least 15 years old

[freakypalmguy]

Then these two plants are both approximately 20 years old, and we’re sold as small 1 gallon plants, they were doubles, not clumpers, sold as Butia paraguayensis, but don’t fit the description, Alberto classified them years ago, as Butia sp. paraguay, so unknown.

[Scott W]

On 8/29/2023 at 5:31 AM, Gallop said:

Seed was from RPS as Archeri, however I don’t think it’s archeri. There are apparently two forms of archeri. Thought it might be the archeri var archeri form however I don’t think it is.  I have a couple arenicola, it’s not that. I also have paraguayensis and it definitely doesn’t resemble paraguayensis. What ever it is it’s cold tolerant. My paraguayensis had spear pull this past winter and this one was just fine. I believe this palm is going on 8yrs old and maybe it will continue to get bigger not sure?

When was the seed purchased and how old is the plant?

I ask as this looks very similar to the ones Rich Lindberg and I grew from RPS seed purchased 2/14/2016 that were labelled as Butia archeri.

Has this flowered yet?  A couple of the ones Rich are growing have, mine has not yet. In discussing dwarf Butia previously with Kellen Soares the flowers will help to better identify it as well.

[Scott W]

7 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

Then these two plants are both approximately 20 years old, and we’re sold as small 1 gallon plants, they were doubles, not clumpers, sold as Butia paraguayensis, but don’t fit the description, Alberto classified them years ago, as Butia sp. paraguay, so unknown.

 

Do you offer the seeds up for sale or are you germinating them?

 

 

[freakypalmguy]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

When was the seed purchased and how old is the plant?

I ask as this looks very similar to the ones Rich Lindberg and I grew from RPS seed purchased 2/14/2016 that were labelled as Butia archeri.

Has this flowered yet?  A couple of the ones Rich are growing have, mine has not yet. In discussing dwarf Butia previously with Kellen Soares the flowers will help to better identify it as well.

The seeds were purchased in 2008 from RPS, one has flowered and the other has not.

[freakypalmguy]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

 

Do you offer the seeds up for sale or are you germinating them?

 

 

I’ve been hybridizing this one, and have had a few germinate. I have to protect them or the squirrels steel them as they ripen. Ill try to protect these soon and see if they germinate. I’m not a seller, just in it for fun

[Gallop]

16 hours ago, Scott W said:

When was the seed purchased and how old is the plant?

I ask as this looks very similar to the ones Rich Lindberg and I grew from RPS seed purchased 2/14/2016 that were labelled as Butia archeri.

Has this flowered yet?  A couple of the ones Rich are growing have, mine has not yet. In discussing dwarf Butia previously with Kellen Soares the flowers will help to better identify it as well.

Hi Scott, these were purchased as soon as the came available from rps in 2016.  Mine have not flowered and I apparently have a couple different plants from that seed batch labled archeri. I’ve sent pictures to a couple experts in Brazil and elsewhere even to a  botanical gardens that has gone on several Butia expeditions with their staff. I’m told time and time again this is not butia archeri or archeri var archeri. 

[Gallop]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:52 AM, freakypalmguy said:

Then these two plants are both approximately 20 years old, and we’re sold as small 1 gallon plants, they were doubles, not clumpers, sold as Butia paraguayensis, but don’t fit the description, Alberto classified them years ago, as Butia sp. paraguay, so unknown.

Nice butia Matt!

[Gallop]

Here is another from the same batch of seed showing a smooth purple petiole. 

[Scott W]

15 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

I’ve been hybridizing this one, and have had a few germinate. I have to protect them or the squirrels steel them as they ripen. Ill try to protect these soon and see if they germinate. I’m not a seller, just in it for fun

Understand.   I only ask because Dwarf Butia are so rare in cultivation and it'd be great to get some more seeds, especially from a US source.  Keep me in mind should you ever have extras.

[Scott W]

1 hour ago, Gallop said:

Hi Scott, these were purchased as soon as the came available from rps in 2016.  Mine have not flowered and I apparently have a couple different plants from that seed batch labled archeri. I’ve sent pictures to a couple experts in Brazil and elsewhere even to a  botanical gardens that has gone on several Butia expeditions with their staff. I’m told time and time again this is not butia archeri or archeri var archeri. 

Thanks for the additional info.  I think our thoughts are that the plants were archeri var archeri, regardless,  they are Dwarf for sure, especially considering they are flowering at this size and at this age.

[freakypalmguy]

2 hours ago, Gallop said:

Hi Scott, these were purchased as soon as the came available from rps in 2016.  Mine have not flowered and I apparently have a couple different plants from that seed batch labled archeri. I’ve sent pictures to a couple experts in Brazil and elsewhere even to a  botanical gardens that has gone on several Butia expeditions with their staff. I’m told time and time again this is not butia archeri or archeri var archeri. 

Oops, I thought he was asking about my plant, but now that I actually read the question, I realized he wasn’t 

[freakypalmguy]

2 hours ago, Gallop said:

Here is another from the same batch of seed showing a smooth purple petiole. 

Very nice, every plant I have is armed.

[Scott W]

@Gallop, here's two of mine which were recently potted up.  Sadly, not sure of the ID as well because of bad labelling, but these came from the same RPS seed batch purchased in 2016 (which included archeri, lepidiospatha, lallemantii & mattogrossensis)

Smooth petioles, whispy look with narrow leaves.  It also appears to be developing a bluish hue on the petioles, which rubs off just like my large Blue odorata.   Bluish hue points to Butia lepidotispatha according to Palmpedia, which would be awesome!

Most importantly...it just started flowering 😁

[Gallop]

4 hours ago, Scott W said:

@Gallop, here's two of mine which were recently potted up.  Sadly, not sure of the ID as well because of bad labelling, but these came from the same RPS seed batch purchased in 2016 (which included archeri, lepidiospatha, lallemantii & mattogrossensis)

Smooth petioles, whispy look with narrow leaves.  It also appears to be developing a bluish hue on the petioles, which rubs off just like my large Blue odorata.   Bluish hue points to Butia lepidotispatha according to Palmpedia, which would be awesome!

Most importantly...it just started flowering 😁

Thanks for sharing Scott. It would be interesting to see how yours would grow in the ground?

 Mine are growing good in the ground here.  Hopefully we’ll be able to put a name on these one day.

[Scott W]

8 hours ago, Gallop said:

Thanks for sharing Scott. It would be interesting to see how yours would grow in the ground?

 Mine are growing good in the ground here.  Hopefully we’ll be able to put a name on these one day.

I did put one Archeri in the ground.  These were potted because of the unknown ID, and now knowing that these are definitely Dwarf I might just keep them potted for ease of hybridization experiments. 

[Gallop]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

I did put one Archeri in the ground.  These were potted because of the unknown ID, and now knowing that these are definitely Dwarf I might just keep them potted for ease of hybridization experiments. 

Understood, did you put your Butia silva minor (B arenicola) in the ground ? I put mine in the ground in a new planting bed I made and it’s doing good.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Gallop

[Scott W]

12 hours ago, Gallop said:

Understood, did you put your Butia silva minor (B arenicola) in the ground ? I put mine in the ground in a new planting bed I made and it’s doing good.

I did not.  It actually suffered spear pull after two days of lows around 25F Christmas 2022 (along with three other dwarfs), so she's staying potted for the time being as well. 

[Gallop]

3 hours ago, Scott W said:

I did not.  It actually suffered spear pull after two days of lows around 25F Christmas 2022 (along with three other dwarfs), so she's staying potted for the time being as well. 

Thanks for the information. I’ll keep my eye on them this winter. Butia paraguayensis took the biggest hit for me last year. Spear pull and trunk rot. Trimmed the soft tissue away and treated. Still looks a little deformed but it pulled through. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gallop]

1 hour ago, Gallop said:

Thanks for the information. I’ll keep my eye on them this winter. Butia paraguayensis took the biggest hit for me last year. Spear pull and trunk rot. Trimmed the soft tissue away and treated. Still looks a little deformed but it pulled through. 

 

 

 

 

 

Recovery progression on B paraguayensis 

[Scott W]

My Butia paraguayensis sent up two bracts this year, harvested one and the other is ripening.  Seed is by far the smallest butia seeds I've seen, and compared to the pics on palmpedia appear to match what they should look like.  Knowing she's making seed it'll get Syagrus pollen on next year's bracts.

 

[Gallop]

Scott, did you bagged thses bracts? My paraguayensis  is the sane size of yours or bigger no bracts this year. Where did you get yours? I got mine 3yrs ago from Phil at JM

I looked todat I have 5 bracts left on my archeri. I pollinated one bract with queen pollen and it’s looks promising. I’ll bag a few more bracts and pollinate a couple more with queen. 

[Scott W]

Both my Butia paraguayensis and catarinensis I bought from @Steve in Florida two years ago.

Catarinensis pushed 5 bracts last year but no seed and no bracts this year.

Paraguayensis first bract I did not bag, but the second one I did as a test to see if there was better pollination.  Twice as many seed on the second so it might have worked...or could be a fluke.

Good to hear the one pollinated with Queen looks promising!