Chrysalidocarpus Decipiens- why is this happening?

[doubravsky]

This is the second spear this year that has fallen over just as it was opening. With the last one the frond died off pretty quickly. Any thoughts as to what’s causing this and what I should do about it? 
 

location- riverside CA. It’s been in the ground 15 years and this is a new phenomenon…

thanks in advance! 

[BayAndroid]

I can't say, but have you fertilized it recently? If so, with what? I also wonder if it could be a water issue.. 

I'm not sure it compares, but this year I had a frond from an Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana's new spear pushing and one day just collapsed. I speculate this cold wet winter could have caused it to happen. 

[BS Man about Palms]

I default to mulching some more to help the boron..

[doubravsky]

I fertilize with Peters 15-5-15 cal mag through the drip system with a fertigator.... I've given it a decent amount this growing season. the label shows .0187% boron... 

[doubravsky]

@BS Man about Palms boron deficiency seems to match the symptom of spears not opening ... can you overdo boron? 

[BS Man about Palms]

Just now, doubravsky said:

@BS Man about Palms boron deficiency seems to match the symptom of spears not opening ... can you overdo boron? 

Not that I know of.. but don't quote me.  I always just mulch heavier as it happens naturally as the mulch breaks down. Also, trying to not get near the trunk..or barely. I have also read that heavy rains or water will wash away boron.

I also know it usually helps the newest fronds, not past ones..

[Tomas]

5 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

Not that I know of.. but don't quote me.  I always just mulch heavier as it happens naturally as the mulch breaks down. Also, trying to not get near the trunk..or barely. I have also read that heavy rains or water will wash away boron.

I also know it usually helps the newest fronds, not past ones..

Hello, please refer  to fig. 9 in this file. 

The main issue wirh boron deficiency is the pH of the soil, if it is high, you can add as much as you want, but it will not be available for uptake by the plant

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/EP264

Anyway, I think to remeber that it is mentioned in the article, too much boron is detrimental.

 

[Josh-O]

Do you have any stem rot or black spots forming  the base? Usually I see this happen to Dypsis when this occurrs.  When vasticular bundles (vascular bundle is known as conducting vessel of a plant. The vascular bundle consists of the xylem and phloem. They aid in water and dissolved mineral absorption, as well as their transmission to the stem and the storage of reserve foods)   inside the palm are not functioning properly this happens to branches. They  start to wilt due to lack of nutrients not  being carried to the meristematic tissue.  
 

send photos of the base and just below your mulch line when you have time. 

[doubravsky]

@Josh-O none I can see… here’s some pics

[Billeb]

7 hours ago, Josh-O said:

Do you have any stem rot or black spots forming  the base? Usually I see this happen to Dypsis when this occurrs.  When vasticular bundles (vascular bundle is known as conducting vessel of a plant. The vascular bundle consists of the xylem and phloem. They aid in water and dissolved mineral absorption, as well as their transmission to the stem and the storage of reserve foods)   inside the palm are not functioning properly this happens to branches. They  start to wilt due to lack of nutrients not  being carried to the meristematic tissue.  
 

send photos of the base and just below your mulch line when you have time. 

Josh, this sounds like what was happening to my Koghiensis a while back. I subsequently yank this thing out cuz after nearly a year it never seemed to recover after trying different things and it looked terrible. It pushed a frond and immediately drooped heavily. 
 

What is one to do if you think the plant has an issue with its vascular bundle? Can it be treated with something? Thanks. 
 

-dale 

[Josh-O]

41 minutes ago, Billeb said:

Josh, this sounds like what was happening to my Koghiensis a while back. I subsequently yank this thing out cuz after nearly a year it never seemed to recover after trying different things and it looked terrible. It pushed a frond and immediately drooped heavily. 
 

What is one to do if you think the plant has an issue with its vascular bundle? Can it be treated with something? Thanks. 
 

-dale 

that species is prone to that. Has happen to me a few times.

[Josh-O]

I see damage to the outer layer of the skin. How long do you think it’s been there?

[TomJ]

First of all... NICE trunking Decipiens.

I have been to a few trophy gardens where they were absent.

I had an outbreak of similar experiences a few yers back and was too slow to react.

For me it was some sort of parasite in the crown shaft. IDK for sure but suspect banana moth. 

For me imadrocloprid down the crown shaft and root soak was the solution.

If this is the solution....  I would treat all your palms.  The moth has probably infected others you can not see yet.

A few passed and a majority survived, and are just now starting to look good again. The conditionwas more profound on the slower growing palms.

The faster growing ones exibited a "chewed up" runt leaf and slower growth.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by TomJ
scatter brain

[LJG]

3 hours ago, Billeb said:

Josh, this sounds like what was happening to my Koghiensis a while back. I subsequently yank this thing out cuz after nearly a year it never seemed to recover after trying different things and it looked terrible. It pushed a frond and immediately drooped heavily. 
 

What is one to do if you think the plant has an issue with its vascular bundle? Can it be treated with something? Thanks. 
 

-dale 

Dale, vascular bundles just don’t stop working like a failed organ. Palms have vascular bundles that are unequally spread in the trunk, allowing them to live through a lot of damage. Ever seen a palm still growing with a massive hole in it? That’s why. So you won’t have healthy green leaf flop. Fungus attacks the tissue that makes up the vascular bundles, which leads to dead fronds, etc, and eventually a dead apical meristem. I would bet this is one of three things. A missing minor that is causing weak plant cell walls or even too much fertilizer - which cause weak, elongated cells walls. Or finally, mites or mealys you can’t see in crown.

[LJG]

22 hours ago, doubravsky said:

This is the second spear this year that has fallen over just as it was opening. With the last one the frond died off pretty quickly. Any thoughts as to what’s causing this and what I should do about it? 
 

location- riverside CA. It’s been in the ground 15 years and this is a new phenomenon…

thanks in advance! 

This is such a frustrating thing with DD. I see this all the time, in fact my large trunking one did this a lot. DD are not easy to grow. Hence why you don’t see many trunking in gardens considering every palm grower you know plants them. This is usually the cause of one of two things. The most common is early warning of rot somewhere. The new spears just aren’t able to get enough nutrients due to rotting roots, or damage in trunk, and flop. But you will see symptoms getting worse, which it sounds you haven’t. So my guess is over fertilization. I know for a fact this is what causes large Dypsis leaf flop - especially in DD.  I had to cut back on my fertilization (Was using doser and palmgain). After a year or two, this stopped. Over fertilization causes elongated cell walls to form. This makes them weak. Large Dypsis have extremely heavy leaves as you know. Elongated cell walls also make it easier for pest to attack - yes, seems counter intuitive. I corrected this flop issue considerably by lowering my synthetic fertilization regiment and moving to much more mulch. 
 

Side note, I have noticed in my garden this year is that due to the record rainfall, plants really got fat. I have so many trunking palms with split or fissured trunks that never had issues prior. Just my 2…

[ruskinPalms]

Looks a heck of a lot like how two of my Adonidia, my A. cunninghamiana and my spindle palm kicked the bucket. In all cases when I cut them down they had trunk rot. All of them died like that in spring and early summer. I remember posting on here asking about similar symptoms with my A. cunninghamiana and boron deficiency was indeed suggested as well. Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with C. decipiens but my gut suspicion is some sort of pathogen.  Also I have a coconut that had the same sort of problem that did manage to survive a couple years ago but it has never returned to its former glory and is being outcompeted by much more vigorous and resilient C. lutescens planted near it now. I hope you are able to figure out a solution to your problem because that one would definitely be a heartbreaker to lose. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by ruskinPalms

[doubravsky]

Dang... so its boron deficient/ banana moth infected/ rotting/ over fertilized  🙃. Thanks all for the great info! Len @LJG what would be the best course to combat the idea of it being rot? I'll definitely avoid the third round of fertilizer the year.... and look for some imidaproclid. I would hate to lose this one... 

[Josh-O]

Cleary's 3336F Fungicide mixed with  subdue Has worked with phenomenal results in the past for me. Mix in a 5 gallon bucket and drench it.

[doubravsky]

Thanks! I'll pick up the fungicide and the imadrocloprid.....

[LJG]

2 hours ago, doubravsky said:

Thanks! I'll pick up the fungicide and the imadrocloprid.....

PM’ed you.