Just moved, new to Queen palms.. curious about health

[Ben F.]

Hi all, I found this website from searching around for palm health, so happy to find this resource. A few weeks ago I moved to a place that's got 9 rather large Queen palms in Fallbrook (Northeast San Diego county), I'd say trees are anywhere between 20 - 40 feet. Looks like there were 2 other palms that had been cut down a while back. I don't really know much about the history of the lot and how the trees were taken care of, the previous owner seems to have watered a TON of plants.

I don't know much at all about Queen palms, other than I'd love for these to stay in great shape. I did ask a local gardener, he seemed to think they were in pretty decent shape, and to maybe fertilize with 15-15-15 at some point. I've read sometimes these trees can suffer from deficiencies... what I've noticed is that some of them seem yellower on the lower fronds, some are greenish/yellow speckled, some are totally yellowed and dried out looking, or red brownish on the lowers. One is kind of worn out up top. I've attached some photos here.

So I guess what I'm curious about, is based on the photos.. any suggestions for maintenance, or should I just find a local arborist? I've only watered them once in the past few weeks for maybe 1-2 minutes per tree, we did get about 2 1/12 inches of rain a few weeks ago with Hilary.  (I can take better close up photos if needed) 

 

Thanks, Ben

 

[PalmatierMeg]

Queens are notorious water and fertilizer hogs. In FL they are rated Class II invasives. If you want to keep yours at the peak of health you need to provide both water and nutrients regularly. Regarding an arborist be very careful when you look for one. Most so-called arborists/tree trimmers understand little or nothing about palms and are liable to do more harm than good. Palm “trees” are not true trees - they are more closely related to grasses - and cannot be treated like an oak or eucalyptus.

In addition to looking a bit anemic, your queens also appear over trimmed. Don’t let some guy with cleats or a ladder take a go at yours unless he truly knows what he’s doing. Palms withdraw nutrients from older leaves to build new ones. Cutting off green leaves deprives them of those nutrients. Palms cannot heal themselves like dicot trees so any mechanical injury creates a conduit for disease and rot.

[Palmfarmer]

Up the watering a lot.  Water slow and saturate the soil, a few minutes are not enough. 

Yeah it does not hurt to feed them, but keep in mind triple 15 does not contain any micros and is missing some macros for it to be ideal. Get a palm fertilizer if you can find one at a good price. 

[sonoranfans]

Big fertilizer and water consumption to look nice and green.  IF you dont they can get really ugly with frizzletop that takes years to recover fully.  Some areas they can look nice with the right climate and soil, but they look terrible around my area with all the sandy soils.  If you do get tired of looking at them there are other palms that are less maintenance intensive for your area and you are in the perfect place to find someone who lives near you to help with taking care of your queens or replacing them with something that looks great with less effort and cost of maintenance.  I also believe there are some great nurseries that specialize in palms in the fallbrook area.  I will restate Megs comment: these are not like other trees they are more closely related to grasses. 

[Merlyn]

I'd just add that generic 15-15-15 is not a good fertilizer for palms.  Typically a formulation similar to Palmgain 8-2-12 or Florikan 8-2-12 is a good choice.  There are lots of other options, but a fast release or ones with lots of Phosphorus (the middle number) are a bad choice.  The 8-2-12 ratio was experimentally found to work the best in Florida soils by Broschat et. al., but most Florida soils are very high in Phosphorus.  Your CA soil is different, but anything similar is just fine.  Other CA people might have a favorite, but I don't remember it at the moment.

General rule of thumb is 1.5lb of 8-2-12 for every 100sqft of canopy.  So if your Queens are 15' diameter then that's 3.1415*7.5*7.5=176sqft.  So each palm should get (approximately) 176/100*1.5=2.65lb of 8-2-12 fertilizer 4x per year.  If you use something weaker (like 6-1-8) then you'd just use a bit more than 2.65lb.  Likewise a more concentrated fertilizer (like 12-2-24) might use about 30-50% less fertilizer per application.  Just sprinkle around under the canopy diameter, avoiding putting down any big clumps.

[SeanK]

If I had a house near San Diego, every Queen and Wahie would see the chainsaw. There are IPS sponsored Palm societies near you that can guide you to more interesting and collectable species.

[Ben F.]

@SeanK @Merlyn @sonoranfans @Palmfarmer @PalmatierMeg Thanks all for your comments! super helpful, So what I'm hearing is.. 

1. Don't trim the bottom or yellowed fronds, unless they are totally 100% dead and gone - OK. 
2. Water a ton.. I did do some watering this morning, full water soak for 3 minutes each. But are we talking watering once a week, or twice a week? 
3. Fertilize them with something specific for palms 4x a year (almgain 8-2-12 or Florikan 8-2-12 is a good choice) - I did find this liquid fertilizer from Moon Nurseries called "Palm Juice" https://www.moonvalleynurseries.com/super-palm-juice but wow.. it's expensive, guessing a granular feed is better, so I'll search that out. 

[sonoranfans]

Ben 1x or 2x a week in summer may not cut it.  What is the heat like?  And if you have clay soil 3 minutes is not long enough by far as watering depth is a time thing not gph think in clay soil  Im not sure they will recover, but I'd give it a shot.  My arizona garden each adult palm had (3) 2gph drippers for 6gph and I watered for 4-5 hours to get depth.  Your palms look smaller so maybe less water but not much less.  If you dont have clay disregard the watering comments.

[Merlyn]

@Ben F. anything from Moon Valley is likely to be 10x more expensive than it should be.  At least that's what I've heard from other PTers. 

[Ben F.]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

Ben 1x or 2x a week in summer may not cut it.  What is the heat like?  And if you have clay soil 3 minutes is not long enough by far as watering depth is a time thing not gph think in clay soil  Im not sure they will recover, but I'd give it a shot.  My arizona garden each adult palm had (3) 2gph drippers for 6gph and I watered for 4-5 hours to get depth.  Your palms look smaller so maybe less water but not much less.  If you dont have clay disregard the watering comments.

@sonoranfans Heat isn’t bad here, maybe a few days in the low to mid 90’s in a row at a time in the summer, but mostly mid upper 80’s in the summer… then 60’s-70’s, maybe low 80’s at the most the rest of the year. I hear the soil is really good here for growing plants and trees, lots of farming in this area. Not sure about clay?! Maybe I’ll be a soil test kit.. 

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, Ben F. said:

@sonoranfans Heat isn’t bad here, maybe a few days in the low to mid 90’s in a row at a time in the summer, but mostly mid upper 80’s in the summer… then 60’s-70’s, maybe low 80’s at the most the rest of the year. I hear the soil is really good here for growing plants and trees, lots of farming in this area. Not sure about clay?! Maybe I’ll be a soil test kit.. 

Ben I am actually surprised no one from Fallbrook or inland North County has responded yet on the watering.  While I am on the coast, I know Fallbrook's climate well having spent part of my youth in Escondido and having friends/family who live along the 78 corridor to your immediate south.  You definitely need to up the watering.  Large swaths of Fallbrook have a heavy granite or decomposed granite soil.  Your actual soil might depend on whether your lot was originally cut or fill when grading and what prior owners of the lot have done in the intervening years.

The slower your soil absorbs water, the slower you want to apply it to avoid runoff.  Easiest way to test this is dig a hole fill it with water and see how long it takes for the contents of a 5 gallon bucket you pour into it drains.  This has been a cooler than normal summer in most of our area and while there was abundant rain this last winter and spring, you normally will really need to up the watering cycle for these Syagrus palms to look good.  Hopefully someone from Fallbrook will weigh in.  Maybe my friend from the Big Island that used to live there in Fallbrook ... (Jason you are being summoned) can share his old irrigation routine, when he grew lots of exotic palms there. Hilo Jason

[Tracy]

18 hours ago, Ben F. said:

@sonoranfans Heat isn’t bad here, maybe a few days in the low to mid 90’s in a row at a time in the summer, but mostly mid upper 80’s in the summer… then 60’s-70’s, maybe low 80’s at the most the rest of the year. I hear the soil is really good here for growing plants and trees, lots of farming in this area. Not sure about clay?! Maybe I’ll be a soil test kit.. 

Since no one from. Fallbrook has responded still, I will share that my drip system runs twice a week in Leucadia where I get heavy marine layer influence throughout the year.   Number of emitters depends on palm species but some have 4 emitters, running for 40 minutes.  I also have mulched consistently over the years to aid in keeping the water i use from evaporating at the surface.   I have sandy soil so water seeps into the soil rapidly.  

Recommendation is up the water and mulch to prevent surface from drying too quickly.

On a side note, there is a Palm Society meeting next Saturday with two spectacular gardens.  One in Encinitas and the other is right above the i5 and 52 intersection in University City.  No cost and you can see some other potential palms you could add to your property that aren't commonly seen yet quite spectacular.  Information is on these pages.

[NickJames]

@Ben F.…you’ve already got some good advice but I’ll chime in too.

adapt my Floridian experience to your own setting. 

My queens experience a range from high 90/extreme humidity to hurricane winds to hard freezes. 

My soil looks like beach sand and is devoid of most nutrients (including phosphorus, which is actually commonly found in a lot of Florida soils). 

I think my favorite fertilizer so far is Florikan for palm. I still see some of the nitrogen granules a year (!) after application. This fertilizer is timed release meaning it won’t break down outside of specific conditions (temperature etc.). We also have to worry about heavy rain in Florida occurring daily during the rainy season and don’t want the nutrients to simply be wasted. 

[Ben F.]

@NickJames @Tracy @Merlyn @sonoranfans Thanks for the advice all. The local feed and fertilizer store offered some advice. They have a fertilizer that is used a lot in the area,  called Super Palm 14-4-9 by Loveland, has other micro-nutrients in it too. https://www.greenbook.net/loveland-products-inc/14-4-9-super-palm

I bought some and will apply it this week. I'm such a newbie about larger tree care, I know plants can be fussy sometimes, just want to make sure I'm using it right.  My question about fertilizer application - He recommended around 3 pounds per tree, around the drip lines (about 2-3 feet out from the trunk). Also I've got a lot of small and large succulents and century type plants, and some small citrus trees too around the area. Will this type of fertilizer negatively effect anything? I'll water 1x or 2x per week by hand, until I've got my irrigation lines patches up and working. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, Ben F. said:

@NickJames @Tracy @Merlyn @sonoranfans Thanks for the advice all. The local feed and fertilizer store offered some advice. They have a fertilizer that is used a lot in the area,  called Super Palm 14-4-9 by Loveland, has other micro-nutrients in it too. https://www.greenbook.net/loveland-products-inc/14-4-9-super-palm

I bought some and will apply it this week. I'm such a newbie about larger tree care, I know plants can be fussy sometimes, just want to make sure I'm using it right.  My question about fertilizer application - He recommended around 3 pounds per tree, around the drip lines (about 2-3 feet out from the trunk). Also I've got a lot of small and large succulents and century type plants, and some small citrus trees too around the area. Will this type of fertilizer negatively effect anything? I'll water 1x or 2x per week by hand, until I've got my irrigation lines patches up and working. 

 

For Anything Succulent ( any Cacti, / Euphorbs,  Caudex - forming plants like Desert Rose,  " Wood " Lilies,  like Agave, Yucca,  Beaucarnea, or Leaf-type succulents like  Echeveria / Dudleya / Crassula ...etc )  they only need a shot of fertilizer once every 2 years, and you want it to be high in K ( = Potassium ) and Calcium.  Don't need any extra Phosphorus ( Middle number in Fertilizer formulas ) ..and very little N ( Nitrogen )

With Citrus and other subtropical fruits, the above- mentioned palm fertilizer formula will work, esp for your early spring " wake up " feeding.   In summer / Fall, use something similar to this ratio: 5- 2- 10+ ..with minors of course..  Too much N and you'll get lots of great green growth, but poor flowering / fruit set.  Citrus ( and most other subtropical fruit-bearing trees ) like lots of Potassium ..Helps with flower / fruit set, and size and quality of the fruit. Can add things like Tomatoes / Peppers, etc Veggies to the list of K lovers as well.

Many great options for stand alone K sources since many combined fert formulas often don't contain enough of it.. Down To Earth Langbeinite ..or a product called SulPoMag from EB Stone are great.. Can be used on your palms / other tropicals too.  Really good for keeping things like Bananas, Plumeria, and / or Hibiscus really healthy..