Dolomite for Chambeyronia Oliviformis

[Looking Glass]

I’ve been growing these for a couple of year in heavy sun.   They grow decently, but are always a little pale with yellow tips like they might have magnesium deficiency.   There is some necrosis sometimes like manganese deficiency too.   I was wondering if anyone is using dolomite lime or lime gravel on these?   The soil there is rich and a bit wet.   Direct supplementation and fertilization doesn’t seem to help.   I wonder if the dolomite might help.    What say you…
 

November 2021….

 

September 2023…

 

 

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Looking Glass said:

I’ve been growing these for a couple of year in heavy sun.   They grow decently, but are always a little pale with yellow tips like they might have magnesium deficiency.   There is some necrosis sometimes like manganese deficiency too.   I was wondering if anyone is using dolomite lime or lime gravel on these?   The soil there is rich and a bit wet.   Direct supplementation and fertilization doesn’t seem to help.   I wonder if the dolomite might help.    What say you…
 

Much different conditions here, but mine definitely prefer all day dappled light.  When they get hit with direct sun, I typically see some of the yellowing and tip necrosis as well.

[Looking Glass]

21 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Much different conditions here, but mine definitely prefer all day dappled light.  When they get hit with direct sun, I typically see some of the yellowing and tip necrosis as well.

I’ve wondered if it’s just the sun also, as nothing seems to fix it.  That spot gets sun blasted, though it’s starting to get a little less with nearby stuff gaining hight.  As they get bigger, they are tolerating sun a lot better.    Some bottles around here get the classic yellow tips of magnesium deficiency though, too.  That reminds me of some of this discoloration on the tips.   I just hate to start adding dolomite or limestone, then start getting other problems from that.   

These do grow well in Miami’s limestone base though.   And I seem to remember people saying the did add a bit of yearly dolomite to these, somewhere on the forum here.  But I think it’s buried in other discussions about alkaline loving palms.   

[kinzyjr]

20 hours ago, Looking Glass said:

I’ve wondered if it’s just the sun also, as nothing seems to fix it.  That spot gets sun blasted, though it’s starting to get a little less with nearby stuff gaining hight.  As they get bigger, they are tolerating sun a lot better.    Some bottles around here get the classic yellow tips of magnesium deficiency though, too.  That reminds me of some of this discoloration on the tips.   I just hate to start adding dolomite or limestone, then start getting other problems from that.   

These do grow well in Miami’s limestone base though.   And I seem to remember people saying the did add a bit of yearly dolomite to these, somewhere on the forum here.  But I think it’s buried in other discussions about alkaline loving palms.

It's an aggravating problem and very easy to spend yourself into bankruptcy trying to correct it and still have the issue.  As far as dolomite, I haven't used it.  I have given this palm a test treatment with Florikan and  then later with SulPoMag, but neither really did a whole lot other than speed up the rate at which the oldest leaf was cannibalized to push new growth.  The area I have mine in has a pH ~6.0-6.6 and a very sound nutrient profile.  The one thing I have noticed is that the planting area is a bit high in trace metals like Aluminum and Copper, and from what I've seen, that will almost guarantee you have this issue to varying degrees regardless of what you do.

@sonoranfans knows a lot more about soil composition and chemistry than I do, so it would be interesting to hear his take on this.

[happypalms]

Looks like to much sun I have a few looking the same they are fairly exposed to bright afternoon sun and in a dry area 

[sonoranfans]

I have not grown mine in full all day sun so I cannot comment on sun stress at a young age.  Older trunking palms dont have an issue for me.  My larger ones were from ken johnson and they grew very well down on his farm in the miami area with its limestone rock.  I did not plant mine in rich soil, mulch on top every year but not deep rich soil.  I have used dolomite on mine in the past, trying to reproduce Mg, CA in Kens soil chemistry.  This is one palm that needed florikan for me, I tried slow release from a few sources and they just didnt look as vibrant as Kens.  Note Ken uses only florikan last I heard.  IN my yard the most dependent palms on the florikan slow release are cuban copernicias, satakentias and these, all of which Ken grew on his property in numbers of a dozen or more.  I use kens advice on these palms and others I saw in his yard, seeing is believing.

[sonoranfans]

It might be that high calcium soils need the controilled release as excess Ca will interfere with uptake of Mg.  With florikan there is always plenty of Mg around due to the controlled release by osmotic membrane.  I do remember some striping as you have observed in some small potted ones I had.   I had high drainage soil int he pots and was less than perfect at keeping them wet initially.  These palms like to be wet but I dont have that rich organic soil under mine, just mulch on top with sandy soil with a little clay and I mulched every year for years.  Watering regimen depends on soil of course.  Kens soil was wet and rocky, no visible organics at all as I recall.   

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have had three in the ground for about four years. They are all in shade to partial sun. Two are on average soil with some organic material and they are growing slowly but steadily. The one in extra rich organic soil is a rocket in comparison and fully green on all fronds. Soil is on the acidic side but irrigation water is hard and quite alkaline.  It’s growing like you’d expect a well watered King palm to grow. This one gets some afternoon sun for a short duration and is about to show its first trunk growth ring. 

[Looking Glass]

 

7 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I have not grown mine in full all day sun so I cannot comment on sun stress at a young age.  Older trunking palms dont have an issue for me.  My larger ones were from ken johnson and they grew very well down on his farm in the miami area with its limestone rock.  I did not plant mine in rich soil, mulch on top every year but not deep rich soil.  I have used dolomite on mine in the past, trying to reproduce Mg, CA in Kens soil chemistry.  This is one palm that needed florikan for me, I tried slow release from a few sources and they just didnt look as vibrant as Kens.  Note Ken uses only florikan last I heard.  IN my yard the most dependent palms on the florikan slow release are cuban copernicias, satakentias and these, all of which Ken grew on his property in numbers of a dozen or more.  I use kens advice on these palms and others I saw in his yard, seeing is believing.

I’ve looked into Florikan, but I think last I checked, the nearest distributor was no where close by.  Perhaps I should look a little harder, or come up with a different plan to acquire some.   I think it’s probably the highest quality stuff.   For some reason the soil in this corner is pretty rich for a few feet down before you hit sand.  There was an old garden bed in that spot years ago with a tree and shrubs, then it was removed to make way for grass and more lawn about 6-7 years ago.   Now that I’ve taken over, I’m reclaiming it for garden space again.   It’s weird what you find digging around in this small old lot.   Very variable under the surface.   The house was originally built about 70 years ago.   Lots of remodels and landscaping has come and gone in different spots over the decades, leaving varying amounts of sand, soil, rock, and construction debris.   Other spots near the road are all sand after 6 inches of digging.  

7 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

I have had three in the ground for about four years. They are all in shade to partial sun. Two are on average soil with some organic material and they are growing slowly but steadily. The one in extra rich organic soil is a rocket in comparison and fully green on all fronds. Soil is on the acidic side but irrigation water is hard and quite alkaline.  It’s growing like you’d expect a well watered King palm to grow. This one gets some afternoon sun for a short duration and is about to show its first trunk growth ring. 

My lot is a very sunny one due to orientation.   I’ve added a lot of shade where I could over just a few years, but there is only so much I can do.  I guess, years ago, a big hurricane cleared out all the old live oaks and other hardwoods that used to be on this street, according to elderly neighbors.   I have a couple Oliviformis in pots too.  Like 3g and a couple feet tall.   They stay a deeper green in more shade, so perhaps it’s just the sun.  

These still grow.  I wouldn’t call them fast.  They just look a little beat up sometimes.   They don’t grow a ton of new fronds per year, just a few.  But each new one is much bigger and more upright, so they look more impressive in size over time, despite the slower overall frond production.  I think one is about to start to show a ring of trunk by next summer.  

[sonoranfans]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:29 AM, Looking Glass said:

 

I’ve looked into Florikan, but I think last I checked, the nearest distributor was no where close by.  Perhaps I should look a little harder, or come up with a different plan to acquire some.   I think it’s probably the highest quality stuff.   For some reason the soil in this corner is pretty rich for a few feet down before you hit sand.  There was an old garden bed in that spot years ago with a tree and shrubs, then it was removed to make way for grass and more lawn about 6-7 years ago.   Now that I’ve taken over, I’m reclaiming it for garden space again.   It’s weird what you find digging around in this small old lot.   Very variable under the surface.   The house was originally built about 70 years ago.   Lots of remodels and landscaping has come and gone in different spots over the decades, leaving varying amounts of sand, soil, rock, and construction debris.   Other spots near the road are all sand after 6 inches of digging.  

My lot is a very sunny one due to orientation.   I’ve added a lot of shade where I could over just a few years, but there is only so much I can do.  I guess, years ago, a big hurricane cleared out all the old live oaks and other hardwoods that used to be on this street, according to elderly neighbors.   I have a couple Oliviformis in pots too.  Like 3g and a couple feet tall.   They stay a deeper green in more shade, so perhaps it’s just the sun.  

These still grow.  I wouldn’t call them fast.  They just look a little beat up sometimes.   They don’t grow a ton of new fronds per year, just a few.  But each new one is much bigger and more upright, so they look more impressive in size over time, despite the slower overall frond production.  I think one is about to start to show a ring of trunk by next summer.  

You live in an area where I doubt dolomite in needed, with limestones rock soil. and you typically get consistent rainfall, something californians dont have.  What grows here well may have been shocked this year.  I have been watering mine a lot and only the one is shade looks.  IF this year was a weather aberration for you as it was for me, thing got tough for a lot of my palms with 30% of normal rainfall.  All thinkgs considering they dont look bad considering the days of sun we got.  Last two day of cloudy weather were very satisfying but I dont remember a year where it was so hot and dry here.  Even the gulf was 92-100F in some areas, very telling of lack of cloud cover this year.

[Looking Glass]

11 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

You live in an area where I doubt dolomite in needed, with limestones rock soil. and you typically get consistent rainfall, something californians dont have.  What grows here well may have been shocked this year.  I have been watering mine a lot and only the one is shade looks.  IF this year was a weather aberration for you as it was for me, thing got tough for a lot of my palms with 30% of normal rainfall.  All thinkgs considering they dont look bad considering the days of sun we got.  Last two day of cloudy weather were very satisfying but I dont remember a year where it was so hot and dry here.  Even the gulf was 92-100F in some areas, very telling of lack of cloud cover this year.

Up this way from Miami, the soil starts to change a bit, depending on the area.  It’s not the shallow limestone like in the Redlands/Miami area.  The urban spots here are highly altered and variable.   The limestone rock where I sit is pretty far down, but but workers laying deep water pipes can hit the underlying fossilized coral sometimes.  Mostly it’s kind of a deep sand on top.   Depending on the exact spot, I might have 6 inches to 3 feet of rich organic dirt on top of that sand.   Lately, when planting Carribean stuff, I’ve had to add sand rather than organics to some holes, for a change.  But you are right, the natural conditions are fairly alkaline if not too enriched.   

This year has been a weird one for rain on this coast.  But tons of rain.  And not 12 inches overnight from storms, followed by 3 weeks of hot sun, like usual…. No major tropical storms.  Just an half-inch or three, over and over again every day or every few days since April.   With short bursts of clear sun and hot temps.  

Like crazy, ideal weather for most palms.   Insane and not normal at all.  I went months only running irrigation one random day per month.  Though the rains seem to be slowing now….   83.5 inches this year so far, and counting.  

I can blame much on weather this year, except fungal infections and rot.  

Edited September 20, 2023 by Looking Glass

[sonoranfans]

One thing I was thinking is if soil is mucky and compacted enough it could kill off microbial support for the plant by limiting oxygen in the soil.  Wet is one thing but oxygen is needed, period.   Some palms are going to be more sensitive than others when it comes to to oxygen levels in wet soil.  This article may be worth a read.  How is the soil pH?  https://extension.illinois.edu/blogs/extensions-greatest-hits/2007-08-28-yellow-leaves-can-indicate-plant-problems

I would first eliminate soil PH and compaction from the suspects.   One way to prevent soil compaction is 15% or more perlite.  Soil pH in the high 7.7 or even 8 may be OK but higher is probably not good.  I think sometimes we see different yellowing patterns in different palms.  I am not convinced that some variation there has been misinterpreted.  The only ones that seem to be really consistent is iron deficiency in the newest leaves and potassium deficiency from the leaflet tip first that often is speckled(potassium is fixed in the leaf).   I know when I had a saltwater aquarium that dolomite is in the high 7's and crushed coral is in the low 8's.  Some species will be more sensitive to this.  Zinc is also a potential problem at high soil pH.

[Looking Glass]

22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

One thing I was thinking is if soil is mucky and compacted enough it could kill off microbial support for the plant by limiting oxygen in the soil.  Wet is one thing but oxygen is needed, period.   Some palms are going to be more sensitive than others when it comes to to oxygen levels in wet soil.  This article may be worth a read.  How is the soil pH?  https://extension.illinois.edu/blogs/extensions-greatest-hits/2007-08-28-yellow-leaves-can-indicate-plant-problems

I would first eliminate soil PH and compaction from the suspects.   One way to prevent soil compaction is 15% or more perlite.  Soil pH in the high 7.7 or even 8 may be OK but higher is probably not good.  I think sometimes we see different yellowing patterns in different palms.  I am not convinced that some variation there has been misinterpreted.  The only ones that seem to be really consistent is iron deficiency in the newest leaves and potassium deficiency from the leaflet tip first that often is speckled(potassium is fixed in the leaf).   I know when I had a saltwater aquarium that dolomite is in the high 7's and crushed coral is in the low 8's.  Some species will be more sensitive to this.  Zinc is also a potential problem at high soil pH.

I thought about this too.  Is it iron and mucky soil?  These don’t respond to foliar or EDDHA iron drench.  I just looked up Zinc deficiency, but most of the info out there is more for individuals growin “the devil’s lettuce” rather than palms.  

These still grow OK. They just look a little disgruntled sometimes…. Pale with occasional dead spots.  

I’ll have to send a soil test for analysis.  I’ve been dragging my feet on it for a long time now. It’s just such variable composition from spot to spot. 

One hint about the soil I get in the area, comes from the Crotons in the center of the three Oliviformis.  I amended the bed with manure and peat and planted a Sunny Star Croton in the center of the three back when they first went in.    That Croton is doing very well, now kind of temporarily hidden in there by the palm growth.   Crotons hate crap soil and alkaline conditions.  They love acidity and the rich stuff.   This Croton is doing really well in the same bed.   I’d bet the soil is pretty decent.   It could still be too wet for some plants though.  
 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Looking Glass

[sonoranfans]

chlorosis from zinc starts from the bottom of the plant leaves unlike iron deficiency where Fe chlorosis is seen at the newest growth first.  They both impact the chlorophyll molecule as intermediates reagents that assist in the making of chlorophyll which contains neither(Fe or Zn) in the final chlorophyll product.  But construction of the chlorophyll molecule reruires all 3(Zn, Fe, Mg) but only Mg is actually a part of the chlorophyll molecule, the others are intermediates.  If you are not already using chelated zinc it might help if the issues persist.  Things dont look bad to me though, if it still is hap[pening in a year and your soil is high pH, chelated zinc may help.