Advice with remote germination

[meridannight]

I'm having some difficulties getting germinated seeds of the remote germinator types of palms to the seedling stage. Namely, I succeed in germinating the seeds well enough (I use ziplock bags to germinate the seeds, and when the first shoots are an inch or so long I pot them up), but when I pot them into their own containers, by far most of them end up either rotting or drying up before even pushing out the first cotyledon. It's a problem, because I'm really losing a great number of palms this way, not just 2 or 3 here and there. For example, I germinated 8 out of 10 Johannesteijsmannia altiforns seeds, but only 2 survived to the seedling stage. 6 just rotted in their containers without ever pushing out a leaf. Then when I cut back on the moisture, it's on the opposite end -- they dry up in the containers... I am NOT keeping them overly wet, but they may have been higher in moisture than was necessary. But upon reducing the moisture, they dry up and the end result is the same -- no seedling.

The temperatures for my seeds and seedlings usually fall between 25-30ºC or 77-86º F. So, it shouldn't be the case of cold damp conditions that encourage damping off either. 

J. altifrons was just one example. I've had the same problem with other species. And I don't appear to have this issue with adjacent-germinating palms. Those usually start growing roots and forming a plumule rather fast after germination, a process that takes much longer in remote germinators. For whatever reason, that first shoot (hyperphyll) will either rot or dry up for me in most cases. It's very frustrating.

Is the right balance between moist and dry conditions really this narrow? Should I keep the germinated seeds in ziplock containers until I start seeing the first leaf instead? 

I'd appreciate any kind of insight on this problem. 

[D. Morrowii]

Its probably a fungus of some sort. If you put the seed right on the surface then a lot of times the growth point and leaf sheathes are down in the soil. If you water a lot then I think that area is more susceptible to rot. I’m no pro but what saved some Licualas I was growing was to pull the top layer of growing medium out of the pot (or cone in my case) and expose the base of the seedling. A fan can help keep the surfaces dryer and a Fungicide can be used. I don't know what you’re using to grow your seedlings in but you may want to look at your medium and make sure that it doesn't hold too much moisture. Also I know that the roots csn get messy but its a good idea, in my limited experience to allow the seedling to develop at least one leaf maybe two. I know some remote germinators make this tough (say Bismarckia) but for others it is not yoo bad. Hope this helps

[meridannight]

52 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

Its probably a fungus of some sort. If you put the seed right on the surface then a lot of times the growth point and leaf sheathes are down in the soil. If you water a lot then I think that area is more susceptible to rot. I’m no pro but what saved some Licualas I was growing was to pull the top layer of growing medium out of the pot (or cone in my case) and expose the base of the seedling. A fan can help keep the surfaces dryer and a Fungicide can be used. I don't know what you’re using to grow your seedlings in but you may want to look at your medium and make sure that it doesn't hold too much moisture. Also I know that the roots csn get messy but its a good idea, in my limited experience to allow the seedling to develop at least one leaf maybe two. I know some remote germinators make this tough (say Bismarckia) but for others it is not yoo bad. Hope this helps

Thanks for your input. 

I've tried the same thing you described with your Licualas -- pulling the top layer out of the pot -- but that resulted in fatal drying out in my case. 

The medium I use to pot up my germinated seeds is 33% peat-based sterilized soil, 33% perlite, and 33% vermiculite. I also soak all the seeds in fungicide (Physan20) before planting them (before germination, that is). I haven't used fungicide after germination (would that be a good idea to try?). Temps 77-86º F, humidity 60-80% (60% in the winter, 80% in the summer).

I know that the most likely reason for my issues is me not getting the balance between moistness-dryness right. I've experimented with a number of setups (containers in plastic bags, containers in the open air, seed planted on top of soil, seed covered with soil, etc) and I haven't found the one method that just works. The only times remote germinators seem to survive best for me is when I don't really care about them that much (i.e. seeds I was given for free, or common species seeds that have been picked up on the roadside). I had some Hyphaene coriacea seeds given to me for free, I planted them and pretty much forgot about them not even expecting them to come up. Only watered them when I knew the substrate had been dry for days and I'd been pushing it on. And they all came up and grew w/o a single issue. That tells me I might just fuss over the more valuable species too much. 

But I think I will try keeping some of my germinated seeds inside the ziplock bags till I see the first cotyledon pushing out. I definitely need to get my fail rate down, and just keep trying till something works. 
 

 

[Tom in Tucson]

4 hours ago, meridannight said:

Thanks for your input. 

I've tried the same thing you described with your Licualas -- pulling the top layer out of the pot -- but that resulted in fatal drying out in my case. 

The medium I use to pot up my germinated seeds is 33% peat-based sterilized soil, 33% perlite, and 33% vermiculite. I also soak all the seeds in fungicide (Physan20) before planting them (before germination, that is). I haven't used fungicide after germination (would that be a good idea to try?). Temps 77-86º F, humidity 60-80% (60% in the winter, 80% in the summer).

I know that the most likely reason for my issues is me not getting the balance between moistness-dryness right. I've experimented with a number of setups (containers in plastic bags, containers in the open air, seed planted on top of soil, seed covered with soil, etc) and I haven't found the one method that just works. The only times remote germinators seem to survive best for me is when I don't really care about them that much (i.e. seeds I was given for free, or common species seeds that have been picked up on the roadside). I had some Hyphaene coriacea seeds given to me for free, I planted them and pretty much forgot about them not even expecting them to come up. Only watered them when I knew the substrate had been dry for days and I'd been pushing it on. And they all came up and grew w/o a single issue. That tells me I might just fuss over the more valuable species too much. 

But I think I will try keeping some of my germinated seeds inside the ziplock bags till I see the first cotyledon pushing out. I definitely need to get my fail rate down, and just keep trying till something works. 
 

 

I'm no export on growing palms and cycads from seeds. The only remote type that I ever succeeded with is Medemia. Here's the method I used:

After soaking the seeds until the husk was easy to remove, I placed the seeds in community pots (a mistake I won't repeat. The roots and shoots get tangled up and are hard to separate without breaking either). Then I placed individual seedlings into 1 gallon pots with 90% coir and 10% pumice. After 1 year I moved them into 2 gallon pots. The roots become very thick and numerous. A tall "tree pot" would have worked better, and I will use these next time.

Hi 95˚, Lo 64˚

 

[happypalms]

On 9/21/2023 at 6:05 AM, meridannight said:

I'm having some difficulties getting germinated seeds of the remote germinator types of palms to the seedling stage. Namely, I succeed in germinating the seeds well enough (I use ziplock bags to germinate the seeds, and when the first shoots are an inch or so long I pot them up), but when I pot them into their own containers, by far most of them end up either rotting or drying up before even pushing out the first cotyledon. It's a problem, because I'm really losing a great number of palms this way, not just 2 or 3 here and there. For example, I germinated 8 out of 10 Johannesteijsmannia altiforns seeds, but only 2 survived to the seedling stage. 6 just rotted in their containers without ever pushing out a leaf. Then when I cut back on the moisture, it's on the opposite end -- they dry up in the containers... I am NOT keeping them overly wet, but they may have been higher in moisture than was necessary. But upon reducing the moisture, they dry up and the end result is the same -- no seedling.

The temperatures for my seeds and seedlings usually fall between 25-30ºC or 77-86º F. So, it shouldn't be the case of cold damp conditions that encourage damping off either. 

J. altifrons was just one example. I've had the same problem with other species. And I don't appear to have this issue with adjacent-germinating palms. Those usually start growing roots and forming a plumule rather fast after germination, a process that takes much longer in remote germinators. For whatever reason, that first shoot (hyperphyll) will either rot or dry up for me in most cases. It's very frustrating.

Is the right balance between moist and dry conditions really this narrow? Should I keep the germinated seeds in ziplock containers until I start seeing the first leaf instead? 

I'd appreciate any kind of insight on this problem. 

Time to put your seeds in a community pot or styrofoam box lined with plastic on the bottom otherwise the roots grow into the styrofoam and germinate them that way and when you’re first leaf appears use a large grill fork in Australia we say Barbecue fork hold the top of the seedling dig in a little with your fingers until your confident you have a good grip on both the seed and new leaf slowly tease and lift them out be gentle I have done hundreds of joeys this way and kerriodoxa cycas species put a plastic bag over the community pot to help with moisture and heating also bottom heating will help and if you break a Joey root most likely it will die or germinate them in the containers of your choice until your confident all have sprouted and pushed up new leaves then gently upend the container with your hand holding the plants in place and remove the mass of new plants and hose away the soil and tease them apart gently I have great success with this technique the problem you have is only having ten when done by the hundreds it’s easier to do it without fear of losing any ten seeds you tend to baby them to much be gentle either way it comes with experience I do the same with Rare plants and think I need to really baby them and panic when you should just treat them as any other plant but the key word is gentle build up your confidence and you will have Joey palm city growing before you know it or any other remote germination palm  ps when doing Bismarck palms repot them up to the button and hang the seed over the pot good luck also remember most remote germination palms require good depth to sink down and come back up no shallow container a ten inch pot does ten Joey seeds well