Mule palm cold hardiness unprotected. What's the lowest temperature you experienced with your Mule palm?

[MarcusH]

I read a lot that Mule palms can survive temperatures around 15°F to 16°F unprotected on Google.  I'd like to hear your personal experience.  What's also the least cold hardiness I can expect from a Mule ? I know genetics play a big role. 

[DAVEinMB]

I have 5 decent sized mules that all saw 13F this past winter unprotected. 

1 had to be trunk cut but recovered. 

1 had spear rot but pushed it out with a little peroxide help

3 were basically unfazed

[MarcusH]

34 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

I have 5 decent sized mules that all saw 13F this past winter unprotected. 

1 had to be trunk cut but recovered. 

1 had spear rot but pushed it out with a little peroxide help

3 were basically unfazed

Hi Dave . What a speedy recovery . That's what I like about Mules that the recovery process is quicker than Queen palms.  You have quite a lot of Mules did you buy strap leaf palms or what size?  Also can you tell me how many leafes after they defoliated grew back to this date ? How old are your palms ? 

[Allen]

Maybe people should post temps based on something like:

- no frond damage

- 50% or more frond damage

- death or trunk cut temps

I just looked at your historical temps and I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.  When small I'd protect under 25 just to make sure it grows as fast as possible with no damage

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Allen

[DAVEinMB]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Hi Dave . What a speedy recovery . That's what I like about Mules that the recovery process is quicker than Queen palms.  You have quite a lot of Mules did you buy strap leaf palms or what size?  Also can you tell me how many leafes after they defoliated grew back to this date ? How old are your palms ? 

Yea I'm pretty surprised how much the trunk cut one bounced back once warmer temps settled in. 3 of them were planted as 15 gallon plants and the other 2 were 45 gallon iirc. I'll have to count them when I get home after while but if I had to guess it's around 5 fronds. I'm not sure how old any of them are, they've all been in the ground here around 4 years

[MarcusH]

17 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Yea I'm pretty surprised how much the trunk cut one bounced back once warmer temps settled in. 3 of them were planted as 15 gallon plants and the other 2 were 45 gallon iirc. I'll have to count them when I get home after while but if I had to guess it's around 5 fronds. I'm not sure how old any of them are, they've all been in the ground here around 4 years

Wow 45 gallon they will charge you an arm and leg for this size here in San Antonio.  I believe they start charging $350 to $500 for a 15 gallon pot but the looks of it is priceless.  Most beautiful palm in my opinion.  

[MarcusH]

20 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Yea I'm pretty surprised how much the trunk cut one bounced back once warmer temps settled in. 3 of them were planted as 15 gallon plants and the other 2 were 45 gallon iirc. I'll have to count them when I get home after while but if I had to guess it's around 5 fronds. I'm not sure how old any of them are, they've all been in the ground here around 4 years

Oh yes count the fronds please if you don't mind I'm curious about how many fronds grow in one growing season.  I prefer the fronds of a Mule over tgeQueen because they just look fuller and darker green in my opinion.  We're heading towards the end of the growing season and my Queen that got completely defoliated last winter recovered well but I'm not satisfied with the looks overall.  It's just pushing out its 5th frond . 

[fr8train]

1 minute ago, MarcusH said:

Wow 45 gallon they will charge you an arm and leg for this size here in San Antonio.  I believe they start charging $350 to $500 for a 15 gallon pot but the looks of it is priceless.  Most beautiful palm in my opinion.  

I've read about people finding them really cheap at big box stores, but I've never seen them anywhere other than palmbuddha. 

I'm only aware of the ones that grow at the Oblate School of Theology in our area, and 2 of the 3 made it through palmageddon, which is very impressive. The only other place I've seen one is Seguin east of here, but I don't know when that one was planted. 

[Allen]

23 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Wow 45 gallon they will charge you an arm and leg for this size here in San Antonio.  I believe they start charging $350 to $500 for a 15 gallon pot but the looks of it is priceless.  Most beautiful palm in my opinion.  

Well I bought mine in 2017 as maybe a 5 gallon?  Anyway $70 shipped at maybe 4' tall.  Today maybe 18' and has grown 7 fronds planted in clay and with substantial yearly winter trimming/defoliation.   I would say 8-9 fronds by this year end.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Allen

[MarcusH]

8 minutes ago, Allen said:

Well I bought mine in 2017 as maybe a 5 gallon?  Anyway $70 shipped at maybe 4' tall.  Today maybe 18' and has grown 7 fronds planted in clay and with substantial yearly winter trimming/defoliation.   I would say 8-9 fronds by this year end.

I saw some of your new videos you posted yesterday and let me tell you I want your Mule palm hehe.  It looks so good and the numbers even back in June yours already looked great.  I'll definitely dig my Queens out and replace it with a Mule in front and a Filifera that I'm already growing in the back. I would also love to have a Pindo but I'm running out of space and my wife oh well lol. So tell me Alan do the fronds grow one by one or multiple fronds pushing out at the same time like a Pindo and CIDP does ?

[MarcusH]

26 minutes ago, fr8train said:

I've read about people finding them really cheap at big box stores, but I've never seen them anywhere other than palmbuddha. 

I'm only aware of the ones that grow at the Oblate School of Theology in our area, and 2 of the 3 made it through palmageddon, which is very impressive. The only other place I've seen one is Seguin east of here, but I don't know when that one was planted. 

I don't understand why we don't see more Mule palms in this area. The only place I saw them were at PalmBuddha . I wish HD and Lowes would sell them.  

[DAVEinMB]

30 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Wow 45 gallon they will charge you an arm and leg for this size here in San Antonio.  I believe they start charging $350 to $500 for a 15 gallon pot but the looks of it is priceless.  Most beautiful palm in my opinion.  

I got a screaming deal on the 45 gallon plants because they had been sitting on the lot for so long. 15 gallon goes for around 275 

[Allen]

11 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

So tell me Alan do the fronds grow one by one or multiple fronds pushing out at the same time like a Pindo and CIDP does ?

I don't understand how to answer that question.  The center is growing up and they are all pushing up in sequence together.  One doesn't go out before a new spear emerges.  

[DAVEinMB]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Oh yes count the fronds please if you don't mind I'm curious about how many fronds grow in one growing season

The trunk cut mule is pushing its sixth frond 

[Dwarf Fan]

No personal experience, but here is what I found through online research:

Butiagrus Nabonnandii (Mule Palm)

Butia odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana

Origin: Brazil

Hardiness: 15F

Trunk: 15’-35’

Salt: Moderate-High

[WSimpson]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

Well I bought mine in 2017 as maybe a 5 gallon?  Anyway $70 shipped at maybe 4' tall.  Today maybe 18' and has grown 7 fronds planted in clay and with substantial yearly winter trimming/defoliation.   I would say 8-9 fronds by this year end.

 

1 hour ago, Allen said:

I don't understand how to answer that question.  The center is growing up and they are all pushing up in sequence together.  One doesn't go out before a new spear emerges.  

Looking great there . It's making  me think about growing one in my best microclimate . 

Will

Edited September 25, 2023 by Will Simpson

[SeanK]

3 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

No personal experience, but here is what I found through online research:

Butiagrus Nabonnandii (Mule Palm)

Butia odorata x Syagrus romanzoffiana

Origin: Brazil

Hardiness: 15F

Trunk: 15’-35’

Salt: Moderate-High

"Hardiness" requires further definition. Maybe yearly defoliation is OK for you, maybe not. Generally, those leaning Butia will start to show damage at 15°. Those leaning Syagrus will likely show damage at 18° or 19°.

[Dwarf Fan]

8 minutes ago, SeanK said:

"Hardiness" requires further definition. Maybe yearly defoliation is OK for you, maybe not. Generally, those leaning Butia will start to show damage at 15°. Those leaning Syagrus will likely show damage at 18° or 19°.

^^^ This is good to know, I thought that Mules were more consistent to around 15F with just taking some amount of damage, not complete defoliation.

Are Mules that unstable of a hybrid that a significant portion of the offspring will lean more into Queen hardiness territory? I thought that the Butia cold Hardy genetics are consistently bred into the Mule offspring not that of the Queen?

[SeanK]

Just now, Dwarf Fan said:

^^^ This is good to know, I thought that Mules were more consistent to around 15F with just taking some amount of damage, not complete defoliation.

Are Mules that unstable of a hybrid that some will lean more into Queen hardiness territory?

I'm not saying that they'll defoliate at 15°.  Just saying that "hardiness" needs to be better defined. Yes, there is a bit of variation depending on the genetic mix.

[Dwarf Fan]

2 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'm not saying that they'll defoliate at 15°.  Just saying that "hardiness" needs to be better defined. Yes, there is a bit of variation depending on the genetic mix.

Agreed, I am definitely in favor of moving over to a 3 tiered Cold Hardy rating system even if it is considered “unofficial”.

And good to know about the variation that certainly adds a twist to things.

[MarcusH]

5 hours ago, Allen said:

I don't understand how to answer that question.  The center is growing up and they are all pushing up in sequence together.  One doesn't go out before a new spear emerges.  

Thanks Allan you answered my question I didn't know how to explain it otherwise since English isn't first language.  It shows that the Mule palm grows more fronds a year and also faster . What I've encountered so far with my Queen is that it takes about 1.5 months to grow a frond . 

[MarcusH]

6 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'm not saying that they'll defoliate at 15°.  Just saying that "hardiness" needs to be better defined. Yes, there is a bit of variation depending on the genetic mix.

I understand and you're right about cold hardiness. Well cold hardiness to me the lowest temperature the palm can take.  The other one I would call it leave hardiness but that's just me. I'm OK with yearly defoliation as long as the crown grows back in early summer or let me put it this way I want my palm to look good not like a palm with just 3 fronds hanging all summer and looks decent a week before the next cold snap . 

[MarcusH]

12 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I'm not saying that they'll defoliate at 15°.  Just saying that "hardiness" needs to be better defined. Yes, there is a bit of variation depending on the genetic mix.

I'm in a warm 8b almost 9a so far it gets below 20°F twice a year on average with exemptions of course.  So far we already seen two brutal cold fronts in this decade .

[Xerarch]

The below photo shows damage done in the growing point of one of my mules at 23 degrees F in December 2022 (photo taken today months after that section grew out). Another one had similar damage and a 3rd one showed no damage at all. All 3 were planted earlier in 2022 at 15 gallon-ish size, the largest one is the one that didn’t show damage. All 3 had zero percent frond damage after the 23 degree event but in time I noticed the emerging spears were deformed, no spear pull, no rot etc observed. I’m confident my mules will be nearly invincible long term in my climate where that 23 degrees is a rarity, but just goes to show they are not invincible even in the 20’s at smaller sizes. 

[MarcusH]

13 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

The below photo shows damage done in the growing point of one of my mules at 23 degrees F in December 2022 (photo taken today months after that section grew out). Another one had similar damage and a 3rd one showed no damage at all. All 3 were planted earlier in 2022 at 15 gallon-ish size, the largest one is the one that didn’t show damage. All 3 had zero percent frond damage after the 23 degree event but in time I noticed the emerging spears were deformed, no spear pull, no rot etc observed. I’m confident my mules will be nearly invincible long term in my climate where that 23 degrees is a rarity, but just goes to show they are not invincible even in the 20’s at smaller sizes. 

Let's take into consideration that you planted your Mules less than a year prior to the cold snap that moved in to your area which means your newly planted palm didn’t fully developed its roots system yet I also want to point out that every young palm won't be as hardy as mature palms. Cold Hardiness comes over time . Observing your picture so as far as I can see the palm looks pretty good for being exposed to 23 degrees Fahrenheit.  No defoliation at all. 

[Xerarch]

3 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Let's take into consideration that you planted your Mules less than a year prior to the cold snap that moved in to your area which means your newly planted palm didn’t fully developed its roots system yet I also want to point out that every young palm won't be as hardy as mature palms. Cold Hardiness comes over time . Observing your picture so as far as I can see the palm looks pretty good for being exposed to 23 degrees Fahrenheit.  No defoliation at all. 

That’s correct, the only damage given all those circumstances was one partially deformed frond emerging.   

[MarcusH]

5 hours ago, Xerarch said:

That’s correct, the only damage given all those circumstances was one partially deformed frond emerging.   

My friend,  I could absolutely live with that and it looks like that little fellow could take a lot more colder temperatures.  

[Chester B]

 

Pacific Northwest

19F

20-40 mph sustained winds with gusts up to 60 mph

Dry cold

Two 4-5' overall height mules were killed with frost cloth and Christmas lights as protection

Palms came from NTCHP originally

My neighbors 8'-9' overall height mule was left unprotected in a more sheltered spot and it died too.  Big box store purchase from either AZ or TX

 

My two that I protected remained pretty green with only the oldest fronds getting a bit of browning.  Once things warmed up in spring the spears turned crispy and pulled.  I trunk cut both of them and there was nothing left to save

My neighbors larger one defoliated right away.  Later spear pulled.  In spring I trunk cut and it was completely gone.

 

I dug up my small mules and what I can say is that they have a vigorous and very strong root system compared to a straight Butia.  Difficult to remove even at a smaller size.

[Allen]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:21 AM, DAVEinMB said:

I have 5 decent sized mules that all saw 13F this past winter unprotected. 

@DAVEinMB all mules are looking great after the cold! How did you measure the 13F temp?  When I look up historical weather on Weather Underground I see 18F as the low for Myrtle beach.  Of course you may be in a much colder area than the station.  NOAA shows 16F

https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/sc/myrtle-beach/KMYR/date/2022-12

https://www.weather.gov/wrh/Climate?wfo=ilm

 

[DAVEinMB]

11 minutes ago, Allen said:

@DAVEinMB all mules are looking great after the cold! How did you measure the 13F temp?  When I look up historical weather on Weather Underground I see 18F as the low for Myrtle beach.  Of course you may be in a much colder area than the station.  NOAA shows 16F

https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/sc/myrtle-beach/KMYR/date/2022-12

https://www.weather.gov/wrh/Climate?wfo=ilm

 

Yea it's definitely surprising how they handled that cold front. I have a weather station and I put the 3 sensors in different places around my yard. The calibration might be slightly off but they all were consistent in the 13 degree ultimate low

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

 

Pacific Northwest

19F

20-40 mph sustained winds with gusts up to 60 mph

Dry cold

Two 4-5' overall height mules were killed with frost cloth and Christmas lights as protection

Palms came from NTCHP originally

My neighbors 8'-9' overall height mule was left unprotected in a more sheltered spot and it died too.  Big box store purchase from either AZ or TX

 

My two that I protected remained pretty green with only the oldest fronds getting a bit of browning.  Once things warmed up in spring the spears turned crispy and pulled.  I trunk cut both of them and there was nothing left to save

My neighbors larger one defoliated right away.  Later spear pulled.  In spring I trunk cut and it was completely gone.

 

I dug up my small mules and what I can say is that they have a vigorous and very strong root system compared to a straight Butia.  Difficult to remove even at a smaller size.

Always sad to hear about the loss of a palm I'm trying to put it all together . So my question is how long did the cold front last and when did you get out of the freeze? I assume that palms in the PNW have less chances to survive due to lack of sunshine (warm energy) and wet climate once temperatures go below freezing but correct me if I'm wrong. My first impression is that I "expect " my Mule to laugh at 19°F because that's pretty much the cold hardiness of a Queen but thinking about the region you were living I think the PNW climate plays a huge role in the recovery process . 

[Allen]

17 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

My first impression is that I "expect " my Mule to laugh at 19°F because that's pretty much the cold hardiness of a Queen but thinking about the region you were living I think the PNW climate plays a huge role in the recovery process . 

I think it is very likely you will have frond damage below 20F.  Dry will help prevent rot which killed @Chester B mules.  I'm just trunk wrapping mine around the fronds this winter except the upper ones so depending on my low temps I'll get to see how some fronds fare.  If we go below 10F I'll cut all the fronds and wrap what's left. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Allen

[Chester B]

9 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Always sad to hear about the loss of a palm I'm trying to put it all together . So my question is how long did the cold front last and when did you get out of the freeze? I assume that palms in the PNW have less chances to survive due to lack of sunshine (warm energy) and wet climate once temperatures go below freezing but correct me if I'm wrong. My first impression is that I "expect " my Mule to laugh at 19°F because that's pretty much the cold hardiness of a Queen but thinking about the region you were living I think the PNW climate plays a huge role in the recovery process . 

It was an unusual event.  Technically it was a bomb cyclone with near hurricane force winds that spewed out of the Gorge and was not preceded by precipitation.  Gardeners around here said they have never seen damage to their gardens like this before.  I was 60 hours below freezing which is the longest I've experienced.  These "East wind" events are a Portland only phenomena due to the Columbia River Gorge funneling either Hot or Cold air from the interior.  Its the only real opening from the east.

Generally at my location cold events are short lived, 24 hours or less and usually are preceded by freezing rain.  The issue is that even after the event has passed, things never truly dry up until spring and temps will remain quite cool for months on end.  We may not go below freezing but the daytime highs in Dec/Jan average in the low to mid 40s, with nights just above freezing.  For reference I think this was the 2nd and 3rd winter for my mules.