Mule palm - How can I tell if it's leaning towards Buti or Syagrus ?

[MarcusH]

I'm interested in buying a mule palm next year but I would like one that's very cold tolerent and shares more genes with a Butia. How can I tell the difference between a Butia leaning and Syagrus leaning Mule palm?  

[Dwarf Fan]

I think it is just a roll of the dice on a standard Mule hybrid and the Super Mule as both are rated to 15F. But the various other variants might have more Cold Hardy tendencies. I am not an expert but I think there are still a lot of unknowns with Mules and Mule Hybrids.

[Dwarf Fan]

Also, I heard that when making a Butia x the offspring automatically get defaulted with the Cold Hardiness genetic coding from the Butia (NOT the Queen) which is why Mules are uniformly given a 15F rating.

No one would want an unstable hybrid that could potentially default to the Queens lack of Hardiness, I believe that is why the Mule has been such a successful cross and has led to the exploration into so many other Butia crosses IMHO. *Apparently there is a variable level of cold hardiness among Mules, some will take less damage than others.

EDIT: *SeanK stated in the other thread that there is more variability among Mules than I had previously found in my research.

[MarcusH]

52 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Also, I heard that when making a Butia x the offspring automatically get defaulted with the Cold Hardiness genetic coding from the Butia (NOT the Queen) which is why Mules are uniformly given a 15F rating.

No one would want an unstable hybrid that could potentially default to the Queens lack of Hardiness, I believe that is why the Mule has been such a successful cross and has led to the exploration into so many other Butia crosses IMHO. *Apparently there is a variable level of cold hardiness among Mules, some will take less damage than others.

EDIT: *SeanK stated in the other thread that there is more variability among Mules than I had previously found in my research.

Very interesting but let's say you are standing in front of two 15g Mules could there be a difference in looks and color on boots like you would see differences inside of the Washingtonia family . 

Edited September 25, 2023 by MarcusH

[Dwarf Fan]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Very interesting but let's say you are standing in front of two 15g Mules could there be a difference in looks and color on boots like you would see differences inside of the Washingtonia family . 

^^^ Interesting question unfortunately I am far from a Butia expert but it seems like a great line of reasoning that warrants further exploration to see if their would be some traits that could indicate advanced levels of hardiness.

Excellent thinking out of the box, there should be much more formal research into Palms there is so much to learn still about them.

[Xerarch]

Also I believe it matters which one is the mother and which is the father, the hybrids tend to lean towards the mother, which I believe is usually the Syagrus and not Butia. So it matters if you get a BxS vs a SxB. I haven’t refreshed my studies on that before making this post, but seems like that’s what I’ve read.  

[MarcusH]

1 minute ago, Dwarf Fan said:

^^^ Interesting question unfortunately I am far from a Butia expert but it seems like a great line of reasoning that warrants further exploration to see if their would be some traits that could indicate advanced levels of hardiness.

Excellent thinking out of the box, there should be much more formal research into Palms there is so much to learn still about them.

I guess the easiest way to identify some of the chararistics are maybe some of the fronds are more curved ,the one that leans more towards butia (?) . I also noticed some have more brown boots some have more green in it but I'm not sure if that's an indicator.  Alan's Mule palm has greenish boots for instance.  DAVEinMB, he has more brownish boots. 

[Dwarf Fan]

13 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Also I believe it matters which one is the mother and which is the father, the hybrids tend to lean towards the mother, which I believe is usually the Syagrus and not Butia. So it matters if you get a BxS vs a SxB. I haven’t refreshed my studies on that before making this post, but seems like that’s what I’ve read.  

^^^ This sounds correct from what I can recall, man what we really need is to get a Mule Breeder in this thread to deep dive into all the nuanced details of Mule hybridization techniques, but those are probably closely guarded trade secrets so that probably isn’t gonna happen.

[Fusca]

I'm no expert but this standard mule I got recently looks more like a queen palm than any that I have seen.  It's the smaller one on the left with a 2-gal queen next to it.  The leaflets are much thinner than my other two mules so I expect this one to be somewhat less cold hardy.  From what I understand the variations in mules are mostly in appearance but I suppose there is also some variation in cold hardiness as well.

[Scott W]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:26 PM, Xerarch said:

Also I believe it matters which one is the mother and which is the father, the hybrids tend to lean towards the mother, which I believe is usually the Syagrus and not Butia. So it matters if you get a BxS vs a SxB. I haven’t refreshed my studies on that before making this post, but seems like that’s what I’ve read.  

Most hybridizers do not do a cross of Syagrus x butia as a flowering Syagrus tends to be too high in the sky to safely emasculate and pollinate the flower bract, that is unless you have scaffolding (and if it were me fall protectionm as well).  Therefore most mules typically are Butia x syagrus due to workability, and Butia as the mother will give better cold hardiness in the cross.

With that, yeah, hybrids can be variable, and I know one hybridizer who is very specific with what pollen goes on what tree in an effort to produce consistent hybrids.

[Scott W]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:49 AM, MarcusH said:

I'm interested in buying a mule palm next year but I would like one that's very cold tolerent and shares more genes with a Butia. How can I tell the difference between a Butia leaning and Syagrus leaning Mule palm?  

Frank Lewis' super mules have more Butia in the mix (F3 Jubutia x syagrus), whereas I believe others are (Jubaea x butia) x syagrus.  Regardless, the super mule is reported to have better cold hardiness due to Jubaea genes in the mix.

 

Here's another thread from @Turtlesteve testifying one of his super mules came back from 12F after spear pull...

 

 

 

[Turtlesteve]

Yeah… one survived 12F but only barely.  It took until May/June to push out all the rot and I wasn’t really sure it would survive until mid summer.  A second super mule was killed.  

[Dwarf Fan]

2 hours ago, Turtlesteve said:

Yeah… one survived 12F but only barely.  It took until May/June to push out all the rot and I wasn’t really sure it would survive until mid summer.  A second super mule was killed.  

What was the source where you got the Super Mule from that was killed, was it from Moultrie?

[Turtlesteve]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:36 AM, Dwarf Fan said:

What was the source where you got the Super Mule from that was killed, was it from Moultrie?

Yes produced by Moultrie.  I had a regular mule too but it was much less hardy and died during a less severe freeze a couple years prior.

[MarcusH]

Not too long ago I came across a video on YT where a nursery guy explains the differences so in his own words he said you can identify the mother plant by the color of the boots.  Is it greenish it's leaning towards Syagrus if it's chocolate looking it's leaning towards Butia . I think this is a good indicator of identifying the mother plant.  I'm aware of genes playing a huge role in cold hardiness but I also like to add that every palm is different.  Factor one that will influence cold hardiness is how healthy the palm is. Did it get the recommended care from watering to fertilizing ? Example you and your neighbor bought the same new car. Your neighbors engine lasted 100k miles longer than yours.  The difference was the neighbor had the car regularly serviced unlike you.  

From what I hear in this forum I can't tell if a super mule is the better choice . Some say yes some say no . 

I like to hear more information about the owner of a Mule palm who lost a palm during a freeze.  Were the boots green or chocolate colored ? That would help to only confirm the nursery guy's theory . 

[Dwarf Fan]

24 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Not too long ago I came across a video on YT where a nursery guy explains the differences so in his own words he said you can identify the mother plant by the color of the boots.  Is it greenish it's leaning towards Syagrus if it's chocolate looking it's leaning towards Butia . I think this is a good indicator of identifying the mother plant.  I'm aware of genes playing a huge role in cold hardiness but I also like to add that every palm is different.  Factor one that will influence cold hardiness is how healthy the palm is. Did it get the recommended care from watering to fertilizing ? Example you and your neighbor bought the same new car. Your neighbors engine lasted 100k miles longer than yours.  The difference was the neighbor had the car regularly serviced unlike you.  

From what I hear in this forum I can't tell if a super mule is the better choice . Some say yes some say no . 

I like to hear more information about the owner of a Mule palm who lost a palm during a freeze.  Were the boots green or chocolate colored ? That would help to only confirm the nursery guy's theory . 

Here is the video BURGUNDY/CHOCOLATE colored Trunk & Petiole (Butia dominant) Vs. GREEN colored Trunk & Petiole (Queen dominant).

[Dwarf Fan]

Here are close ups of two Mules from the same seed stock and the same age both are over a year old:

BURGUNDY colored Trunk & Petiole:

 

GREEN colored Trunk & Petiole:

 

Green:

Burgundy:

[MarcusH]

I'm going to go back to Palm buddha this year and take some pictures of his Mule palm collection.  Hey Dan your Mule palms look great.  

[Dwarf Fan]

Thanks Marcus, I have added a few more as well so 6x Mules 3 are Green and 3 are Burgundy, one is already starting to cut out its FIRST pinnate leaf! 🤙

See if you can get a count in the wild of how many Burgundy Vs. Green Mules at Palm Buddha and let us know your findings!

Happy Mule Hunting!

[DAVEinMB]

The green vs burgundy color difference seems to hold true with my mules. I have 4 burgundy and 1 green and the green not only resembles a Queen more but it is also less hardy

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, DAVEinMB said:

The green vs burgundy color difference seems to hold true with my mules. I have 4 burgundy and 1 green and the green not only resembles a Queen more but it is also less hardy

And this is exactly what I'm trying to find out thanks for adding your experience with your Mule palms so indeed the color of the boots indicates the mother plant.  For someone who lives in the colder regions it's a big deal.  

[MarcusH]

19 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Thanks Marcus, I have added a few more as well so 6x Mules 3 are Green and 3 are Burgundy, one is already starting to cut out its FIRST pinnate leaf! 🤙

See if you can get a count in the wild of how many Burgundy Vs. Green Mules at Palm Buddha and let us know your findings!

Happy Mule Hunting!

Oh absolutely.  I don't go there in the summer too many mosquitoes love my blood lol.  I went there one time in the summer and I wasn't prepared of the large amount of mosquitoes they had there.  Don't go there without DEET bug spray.  This guy has so many Mule palms in stock it's just amazing which also means he isn't really selling a lot in this area , the price tag is one big factor. 

[Dwarf Fan]

16 hours ago, MarcusH said:

And this is exactly what I'm trying to find out thanks for adding your experience with your Mule palms so indeed the color of the boots indicates the mother plant which parent’s genetic traits are more dominant in the hybrid offspring. For someone who lives in the colder regions it's a big deal.  

^^^ FIFY.

I believe this would be more of an accurate statement, because the different colors do not indicate the mother plant, as the same mother (Butia) produces both Burgundy AND Green Mules at the same time as an F1 Hybrid.

Scott W has it correct here:

On 9/27/2023 at 5:34 PM, Scott W said:

Most hybridizers do not do a cross of Syagrus x butia as a flowering Syagrus tends to be too high in the sky to safely emasculate and pollinate the flower bract, that is unless you have scaffolding (and if it were me fall protectionm as well).  Therefore most mules typically are Butia x syagrus due to workability, and Butia as the mother will give better cold hardiness in the cross.

With that, yeah, hybrids can be variable, and I know one hybridizer who is very specific with what pollen goes on what tree in an effort to produce consistent hybrids.

 

The Legendary Dick Douglas (RIP) figured this all out way back in 2007:

On 6/2/2007 at 7:18 AM, PalmGuyWC said:

Thanks to some this thread has become a thread within a thread, so I will post on the original thread. This is a very interesting thread if you "dig" into it and read the other attached threads.

 

I feel that one trait that is passed from the mother plant to the progeny is cold hardiness.  The recent freezes in N. Calif. damaged all of my Parajubaeas to some degree while my Butia X Parajubaea was undamaged. The plants were subjected to night after night of below freezing temps. with a low of 23 F. Nigel has stated that his B X P has taken 18F with no damage and many nights below freezing.

 

I don't know if there are any Parajubaea X Butia crosses because of the difficulty of pollinating Parajubaea and the length of time to germinate the seeds. I suspect the hybrid P X B would only be as cold hardy as Parajubaea. That is yet to be proven, but I'm sure it will be done eventually.

 

All of the hybrid plants that I have seen more closely resemble the mother plant than the male, yet with subtle differences from the mother. My B X P more closely resembles a Butia, but more "streatched out" and the petioles are, so far, unarmed and there is a lot of fiber around the base, more like a Parajubaea. It remains to be seen if the hybrid plant will have a slinder trunk, or if it will be thick with adhearing leaf bases like a Butia. The hybrid plant is growing twice as fast as either of its parents.

 

I have a Butia X Jubaea X (Syagrus). It looks more like a Butiagrus but is very glossy and has a heavier texture than Butiagrus and it's  grown very fast. I recently accquired a Syagrus X (Butia X Jubaea), and it's still strap leafed but looks more like a Syagrus and has a thiner texture. Only time will tell what these plants will develop into.  In my climate I'm sure they will be cold tested one of these years.

 

Dick

 

[Xerarch]

I never noticed the burgundy vs green boot thing, so I went and checked mine, I have two greens and 1 burgundy, interesting.

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Xerarch said:

I never noticed the burgundy vs green boot thing, so I went and checked mine, I have two greens and 1 burgundy, interesting.

Did you noticed a difference in leaf hardiness ?

[Xerarch]

2 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

Did you noticed a difference in leaf hardiness ?

No, leaves were all untouched at 23 degrees in Dec 2022 freeze, they weren’t here in ‘21

[Dwarf Fan]

So I went back and looked for other tell tale genetic traits that would corroborate the “boot/petiole color theory”:

“Green = Queen 

Burgundy = Butia” 

I took some new pics with a better shot of the GREEN petiole with GREENISH boots and found the following observations:

Green = Queen: 

THINNER Trunk & THINNER leaflets:

 

Burgundy = Butia

BURGUNDY petiole with BURGUNDY boots

THICKER Trunk & THICKER leaflets

[Allen]

12 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

So I went back and looked for other tell tale genetic traits that would corroborate the “boot/petiole color theory”:

“Green = Queen 

Burgundy = Butia” 

I took some new pics with a better shot of the GREEN petiole with GREENISH boots and found the following observations:

Green = Queen: 

THINNER Trunk & THINNER leaflets:

 

Burgundy = Butia

BURGUNDY petiole with BURGUNDY boots

THICKER Trunk & THICKER leaflets

Those thicker fronds are more likely to withstand cold temps.  It's the dainty ends of my fronds that get fried first.  I'll probably be leaving a couple fronds out of the protection this year so we'll see what temp fries them unless I get lucky and have a super warm winter..

[MarcusH]

Big shout out to Dan for providing pictures to support our theory.  At least I know what to look for if I want to have the more cold hardier variant. If you live in a warm 9a and up it won't matter but for us in the colder climate every degree we can squeeze out of a palm is a win. 

[Rivera]

Mules are not threatened by cold here in San Francisco, but Butia odorata has a much healthier appearance than Syagrus romanzoffiana in my cool and windy seaside neighborhood.

I have a young mule. Burgundy boots, and it does look to favor Butia, though it's too small assess girth. 

[MarcusH]

10 hours ago, Rivera said:

Mules are not threatened by cold here in San Francisco, but Butia odorata has a much healthier appearance than Syagrus romanzoffiana in my cool and windy seaside neighborhood.

I have a young mule. Burgundy boots, and it does look to favor Butia, though it's too small assess girth. 

From my observation I would say most Mule palms lean towards Butia Odorata . I'm in a warm 8b a few miles away from 9a . Mules are hardy in our region but I like to get one that leans towards Butia simply because it gives me an extra cushion of cold and leaf hardiness. 

[ChicagoPalma]

Mule palms of Mississippi have some nice cold hardy mule palms that surprisingly, then lean very much to syagrus, but they are very cold hardy for their species, which surprises me a bit but it shouldn't be a surprise since Allen has one thats leaning syagrus and its pretty cold hardy.

[MarcusH]

22 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Mule palms of Mississippi have some nice cold hardy mule palms that surprisingly, then lean very much to syagrus, but they are very cold hardy for their species, which surprises me a bit but it shouldn't be a surprise since Allen has one thats leaning syagrus and its pretty cold hardy.

Yeah I'm not really trying to get one that leans towards Syagrus.  I want a few degrees more of cold hardiness to call it bulletproof for my area. 

[Kenc]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:28 AM, MarcusH said:

Yeah I'm not really trying to get one that leans towards Syagrus.  I want a few degrees more of cold hardiness to call it bulletproof for my area. 

I'm located in North San Antonio, and the mule palm I purchased from Houston is supposed to be a super mule, according to the seller. I've personally witnessed it handle temperatures around 17-18 degrees, which did cause some defoliation, but it recovered nicely. Here's how it looks today. I think my leans towards Syagrus. 

[ChicagoPalma]

Sorry for offtopic comment, but its supposed to snow here in a day so what type of foamboard for protection should i use, im using xps r7.5 foamboard, should i use a better one?

[Kenc]

3 hours ago, Kenc said:

I'm located in North San Antonio, and the mule palm I purchased from Houston is supposed to be a super mule, according to the seller. I've personally witnessed it handle temperatures around 17-18 degrees, which did cause some defoliation, but it recovered nicely. Here's how it looks today. I think my leans towards Syagrus. 

 

3 hours ago, Kenc said:

I'm located in North San Antonio, and the mule palm I purchased from Houston is supposed to be a super mule, according to the seller. I've personally witnessed it handle temperatures around 17-18 degrees, which did cause some defoliation, but it recovered nicely. Here's how it looks today. I think my leans towards Syagrus. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Sorry for offtopic comment, but its supposed to snow here in a day so what type of foamboard for protection should i use, im using xps r7.5 foamboard, should i use a better one?

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Kenc

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Kenc said:

 

 

That's a nice looking Mule palm.  I'm glad to see more people in SA planting Mule palm because I haven't seen any Mules planted in the SA area. Some others have seen it .  I'm going to dig out my Queen palms next February and also replace it with Mule palms. I want my leaning towards Butia. Regards from NE San Antonio.  

[ChicagoPalma]

If I could have a mule, I would have one leaning queen for its look

[DAVEinMB]

16 hours ago, Kenc said:

 

Looks more syagrus to me. Over time the plumose appearance of the fronds should become more pronounced

[Dwarf Fan]

17 hours ago, Kenc said:

 

 

Definitely leaning Syagrus on the petiole color.