Mule palm - How can I tell if it's leaning towards Buti or Syagrus ?

[WisTex]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:27 PM, MarcusH said:

Big shout out to Dan for providing pictures to support our theory.  At least I know what to look for if I want to have the more cold hardier variant. If you live in a warm 9a and up it won't matter but for us in the colder climate every degree we can squeeze out of a palm is a win. 

You might want to check out Palm Professionals in Sugarland.  Very easy to get to.  They say they have the largest selection of mule palms in Texas.  I went there with my pickup in March of 21, acquired a 15 gallon burgundy mule to replace a dead fox tail.  The mule's top frond now is 8 foot tall.

[MarcusH]

On 10/29/2023 at 10:13 AM, WisTex said:

You might want to check out Palm Professionals in Sugarland.  Very easy to get to.  They say they have the largest selection of mule palms in Texas.  I went there with my pickup in March of 21, acquired a 15 gallon burgundy mule to replace a dead fox tail.  The mule's top frond now is 8 foot tall.

We have Palm Buddha in San Antonio.  They also have a very large number of Mule palms in different sizes,  price ranges from $350 to a few thousand dollars.  I've been there a few times.  Sugarland would be too far away just to pick up a Mule palm . I can get one over here but thank you 😊.  

[WisTex]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:56 PM, Dwarf Fan said:

So I went back and looked for other tell tale genetic traits that would corroborate the “boot/petiole color theory”:

“Green = Queen 

Burgundy = Butia” 

I took some new pics with a better shot of the GREEN petiole with GREENISH boots and found the following observations:

Green = Queen: 

THINNER Trunk & THINNER leaflets:

 

Burgundy = Butia

BURGUNDY petiole with BURGUNDY boots

THICKER Trunk & THICKER leaflets

 

There are also 6 foot trunk and a 5 foot trunk ones in the front yard of a house in the 14100 block of Coquina Bay Dr on North Padre island.   Other than these, the ones on Palmira Ave shown above, and the foot and half along with the 3 foot trunk ones in my back yard, I am unaware of any in the ground on the Island.

Edited November 5, 2023 by WisTex

[Dwarf Fan]

Thanks for the coordinates WisTex, MarcusH and I just went and took a look close up at the other North Padre Island Mules today:

Trunk/Petioles More Green = More Queen

Trunk/Petioles More Burgundy = More Butia

[MarcusH]

After doing some research on social media and observations in Corpus Christi with Dan ,we can tell where the plant might lean to .  The mule with the burgundy boots share more Butia genes.  Thicker trunk , fronds dark green with the tips more curved like a Butia. We have seen the difference on quite a few Mule palms on Padre Island.  

Also some forum members confirmed the theory of which one ( burgundy/green boots) is more cold hardy.  

Thanks Dan it's always great to explore palms with you. 

[Dwarf Fan]

Thanks Marcus always a pleasure to go “Island Palm hunting” with you, I enjoy our conversations and learning more about Palms in the process always makes for a delightful visit. Please give me a call anytime you happen to be in town.

[WisTex]

There may more Mules on NPI.  Laguna Landscapes, which specializes in cold hard palms and does a lot of installations on NPI was planning to bring a shipment in.

[coco305]

Is it true that mules do not fruit?

I watched a youtube people and people in thailand or some southeast asian country were able to take cuttings of palm fronds and make new saplings from them. Not sure if it was a fake video because I did not think you can do that with palms, but idk why they would make that as clickbait. 

Because the clickbait would only appeal to people in the palm community, most normal people would just be like "oh thats cool, you grew cuttings of a palm"

[MarcusH]

7 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Thanks Marcus always a pleasure to go “Island Palm hunting” with you, I enjoy our conversations and learning more about Palms in the process always makes for a delightful visit. Please give me a call anytime you happen to be in town.

Always enjoy hanging out with you . Absolutely I'll let you know when I go back to CC again .  Palms are a true addiction . Love me some palms lol 

[MarcusH]

4 hours ago, coco305 said:

Is it true that mules do not fruit?

I watched a youtube people and people in thailand or some southeast asian country were able to take cuttings of palm fronds and make new saplings from them. Not sure if it was a fake video because I did not think you can do that with palms, but idk why they would make that as clickbait. 

Because the clickbait would only appeal to people in the palm community, most normal people would just be like "oh thats cool, you grew cuttings of a 

A quick answer the Mule palm produces sterile fruits only . 

Edited December 3, 2023 by MarcusH

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

A quick answer the Mule palm produces sterile fruits only . 

Is it edible like butia fruit, like sweet or something?

[Dwarf Fan]

6 hours ago, coco305 said:

Is it true that mules do not fruit?

I watched a youtube people and people in thailand or some southeast asian country were able to take cuttings of palm fronds and make new saplings from them. Not sure if it was a fake video because I did not think you can do that with palms, but idk why they would make that as clickbait. 

Because the clickbait would only appeal to people in the palm community, most normal people would just be like "oh thats cool, you grew cuttings of a palm"

As Marcus said Mule seeds are sterile.. Arecas and some Chamadoreas (Metallica) can be rooted from cuttings but most other Palms cannot they must be grown from seed.

23 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Is it edible like butia fruit, like sweet or something?

Yes edible like a Butia. I have eaten Butia Odorata fruit it tasted like a Pineapple-Apricot flavor and very sweet. I have never eaten Mule fruit but I have heard it is sweet and fruity like a Butia tastes.

[RJ]

I’d don’t buy the green boot queen dominate  theory.  For example every yatay mule I’ve seen has green boots. All my yatay mules do. I think their hardiness is nothing more than a roll of dice. All just my opinion… 
 

one trait I have a hunch might indicate hardiness is if the mule contains any plumose leaflets towards the bottom of the petiole. Some of mine exhibit this and some don’t. I think @DAVEinMB might have a prime example of this when some of his mules burned last winter while others didn’t. I might be mistaken but perhaps he can verify on his mules which burned and which didn’t .  But my theory is that mules that exhibit a small amount of plumose tendencies are slightly less hardy. 

[DAVEinMB]

@RJ I'll get some pics tomorrow of my 5 mules and highlight the first leaflets on each of their petioles

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

I’d don’t buy the green boot queen dominate  theory.  For example every yatay mule I’ve seen has green boots. All my yatay mules do. I think their hardiness is nothing more than a roll of dice. All just my opinion… 
 

one trait I have a hunch might indicate hardiness is if the mule contains any plumose leaflets towards the bottom of the petiole. Some of mine exhibit this and some don’t. I think @DAVEinMB might have a prime example of this when some of his mules burned last winter while others didn’t. I might be mistaken but perhaps he can verify on his mules which burned and which didn’t .  But my theory is that mules that exhibit a small amount of plumose tendencies are slightly less hardy. 

Have you noticed that the regular Mule palms with burgundy boots show more characteristics of Pindo where the ones with green boots show lots of Queen characteristics ? I believe it's the same phenomenon we see with Washingtonia Filibusta palms where only one side is dominant and that would come with more cold hardiness or less.  Dan and I drove around NPI where we could see the differences.  A nursery guy on YouTube came up with that theory a few years ago. I came across his video and since then we've been doing some research about it. 

[Dwarf Fan]

7 hours ago, RJ said:

I’d don’t buy the green boot queen dominate  theory.  For example every yatay mule I’ve seen has green boots. All my yatay mules do. I think their hardiness is nothing more than a roll of dice. All just my opinion… 
 

one trait I have a hunch might indicate hardiness is if the mule contains any plumose leaflets towards the bottom of the petiole. Some of mine exhibit this and some don’t. I think @DAVEinMB might have a prime example of this when some of his mules burned last winter while others didn’t. I might be mistaken but perhaps he can verify on his mules which burned and which didn’t .  But my theory is that mules that exhibit a small amount of plumose tendencies are slightly less hardy. 

I welcome a healthy amount of skepticism to anyones theory (again we are just trying to prove out a hypothesis) but so far we are just discussing a standard Mule (Butia odorata/capitata X Syagrus romanzoffiana) bringing a Yatay Mule into the equation is adding another variable that would not make for a very scientific approach to the Mule Boot Color theory.

5 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

@RJ I'll get some pics tomorrow of my 5 mules and highlight the first leaflets on each of their petioles

Looking forward to it thanks Dave.

[RJ]

9 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

I welcome a healthy amount of skepticism to anyones theory (again we are just trying to prove out a hypothesis) but so far we are just discussing a standard Mule (Butia odorata/capitata X Syagrus romanzoffiana) bringing a Yatay Mule into the equation is adding another variable that would not make for a very scientific approach to the Mule Boot Color theory.

Looking forward to it thanks Dave.

Not really. You’re talking about “standard” mules. That’s just it, different parents are often used for the parents mule seed lots. They’re all mixed together by the thousands,  butia that’s most often used shows many different characteristics. I see some “standard” butia with very green boots when young. You really need to compare offspring from a very small operation. For example Moultrie mules. Frank uses (or used to) use pretty much one mother butia for his standard mules. His mules are very consistent. In fact the late Dr. Wilcox noted this many years ago when mules were the big craze. He said their mules were the most consistent for the very reason mentioned above. I have several from him and not one has green boots. 
 

butia has been around in cultivation for enough time for the gene pool to be pretty much a giant pool of traits in any one individual I’ve got common butia, yatay, eriospatha. They are free to mingle however they want and their offspring would be sold or collected by most people as run of the mill “butia” seeds. I’ve got a butia yatay from a very reputable grower that doesn’t have green boots at all. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by RJ

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

Not really. You’re talking about “standard” mules. That’s just it, different parents are often used for the parents mule seed lots. They’re all mixed together by the thousands,  butia that’s most often used shows many different characteristics. I see some “standard” butia with very green boots when young. You really need to compare offspring from a very small operation. For example Moultrie mules. Frank uses (or used to) use pretty much one mother butia for his standard mules. His mules are very consistent. In fact the late Dr. Wilcox noted this many years ago when mules were the big craze. He said their mules were the most consistent for the very reason mentioned above. I have several from him and not one has green boots. 
 

butia has been around in cultivation for enough time for the gene pool to be pretty much a giant pool of traits in any one individual I’ve got common butia, yatay, eriospatha. They are free to mingle however they want and their offspring would be sold or collected by most people as run of the mill “butia” seeds. I’ve got a butia yatay from a very reputable grower that doesn’t have green boots at all. 

First picture: bigger trunk , burgundy colored boots and fronds that are more curved like the pindo mother plant..

Second picture has more Queen chararistics.  

That alone should tell me which one is more cold hardy.  

[RJ]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

First picture: bigger trunk , burgundy colored boots and fronds that are more curved like the pindo mother plant..

Second picture has more Queen chararistics.  

That alone should tell me which one is more cold hardy.  

I don't know where these palms are located. But they appear to be in similar growing conditions as they are situated right next to each other.  Have these palms been tested to the cold? And if so what temperature? They both do appear to have dark boots, or am I missing something? 

 

To be clear, I am certainly not trying to stir up a pissing match. I am just politely disagreeing with the theory

 

-RJ

[DAVEinMB]

1 hour ago, RJ said:

To be clear, I am certainly not trying to stir up a pissing match. I am just politely disagreeing with the theory

Let the battle begin 😂

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

I don't know where these palms are located. But they appear to be in similar growing conditions as they are situated right next to each other.  Have these palms been tested to the cold? And if so what temperature? They both do appear to have dark boots, or am I missing something? 

 

To be clear, I am certainly not trying to stir up a pissing match. I am just politely disagreeing with the theory

 

-RJ

That's ok 

[RJ]

Here is a hood thread to read, any many of the posters sum up what I’m trying to point out… the last post  from @palm tree man I think sums up many of my points. 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarcusH]

Dave posted a comment earlier in this thread where he mentioned that his Mule palms with burgundy boots were cold hardier than the other one he has that shares a lot of Queen chararistics. 

Once they're a bit older you can tell where it's leaning to. 

Our local nursery told me that 70 to 75 percent of his Mule palms survived the big freeze where temperatures went down to 9°F at the lowest . Most of his Mule palms do have burgundy colored boots with more curved dark green fronds.  That was a very unusual cold but that's enough evidence for me that the Mule is a much better choice than a Queen. All Queen palms died that year but I also like to mention that under ideal conditions a Queen palm can survive much colder temperatures than 20°F . Here in SA a good amount of Queens survived when it got down to 14°F in the early 2010s . So genetics , overall health and what type of cold fronts are playing a huge factor as we all know it. 

I'm not denying that some growers didn't have the best experience with Mules I guess the stars weren't lined up right for them.  

Cold hardiness varies with every type of palm there isn’t such thing that says this palm dies at exactly 20 degrees. That's an average estimate . 

Why I also think a Mule is a better choice is that the palm usually grows to 25 to 30ft some less than 25ft . A Queen palm can reach up to 50 ft.  A mature Mule can be still protected. It also grows more fronds with faster recovery process.  One of my Queen got completely defoliated and it's growing its 6th frond while a Mule probably grew few more fronds.  

 

[Dwarf Fan]

11 hours ago, RJ said:

Not really. You’re talking about “standard” mules. That’s just it, different parents are often used for the parents mule seed lots. They’re all mixed together by the thousands,  butia that’s most often used shows many different characteristics. I see some “standard” butia with very green boots when young. You really need to compare offspring from a very small operation. For example Moultrie mules. Frank uses (or used to) use pretty much one mother butia for his standard mules. His mules are very consistent. In fact the late Dr. Wilcox noted this many years ago when mules were the big craze. He said their mules were the most consistent for the very reason mentioned above. I have several from him and not one has green boots. 
 

butia has been around in cultivation for enough time for the gene pool to be pretty much a giant pool of traits in any one individual I’ve got common butia, yatay, eriospatha. They are free to mingle however they want and their offspring would be sold or collected by most people as run of the mill “butia” seeds. I’ve got a butia yatay from a very reputable grower that doesn’t have green boots at all. 

First off I will state clearly that I have seen ZERO actual evidence that a burgundy boot Mule is any more cold hardy than a green boot Mule.

Now that that is out of the way here is the cliff notes for what has motivated Marcus and myself to go driving around inspecting boot color in Mules.

We all know hybrids can be variable but generally take on qualities/attributes of both parents.

Dick Douglas (RIP) as well as others have made it abundantly clear that using a Butia as the Mother (ButiaXQueen) in the cross will make a more cold hardy cross than a QueenXButia.

So we know that we are essentially “chasing” the cold hardy genetics from the Butia Mother.

Okay without DNA analysis how can we determine if a hybrid leans more towards the cold hardy Butia than the less cold hardy Queen?

COLOR of boots was a visual trait that Marcus suggested we look for after sharing “Observing gene expression in Mule Palms”  by David Casella who looks at Mules all day long for years and has concluded that the Burgundy Mules are clearly expressing more Butia genetics while the green booted Mules are more *likely* expressing more Queen genetics.

After watching the video we started looking for Mules to observe color of boots and see if the Mules did in fact look more Butia well the answer is YES they absolutely do that is clear even with our small sample groups that we looked at.

The first group of Mules was a house on North Padre Island that has 5 Mules some Burgundy some Green. I observed that the one with the most dominant Burgundy colored boots/petioles also had thicker leaflets and a fatter trunk all of these traits are more indicative of Butia dominant genetics.

The green booted Mules had thinner trunks and finer more plumose leaflets.

Here are 2 examples of the 5 Mules which are all the same age in front of the same house so I would assume they came from the same parent stock. I think that “different parents are often used for the parents mule seed lots.” Sure that is possible but I would assume a single mother for a group a Mules that were obviously purchased and planted together at the same time in the same location.

 

Here are 2 examples of the 2 Mules which are both in front of a different house so I would assume they came from the same parent stock as well.

 

Now these are my Mules all came from the same seed batch from a well established breeder so we should be again be able to rule out the “different Mothers possibility” and realize that we are just witnessing more Butia expression within the genetic range of the hybrid cross:

Notice how the 2 Burgundy Mules have fatter trunks even at this age? Not only that one is already throwing out “window” leaflets, while the green are only on strap leaves.

Same age green Mules just up sized pots.

[Dwarf Fan]

So, I think With the pics above and video it is safe to say the burgundy boot/petiole Mules DO actually exhibit more Butia qualities.

However, does that mean they are more Cold Hardy, in theory one would assume the answer is YES.

But that is the Million dollar question, and the answer is no one knows for sure yet, but hopefully we can find out…

 

[Dwarf Fan]

8 hours ago, RJ said:

I don't know where these palms are located. But they appear to be in similar growing conditions as they are situated right next to each other.  Have these palms been tested to the cold? And if so what temperature? They both do appear to have dark boots, or am I missing something? 

 

To be clear, I am certainly not trying to stir up a pissing match. I am just politely disagreeing with the theory

 

-RJ

All good Brother this is a gentleman’s forum we keep it civil here and there is always room for fresh thought an innovative outside of the box thinking.

I am a new guy here and certainly don’t have all the answers, but I do have a basic understanding of plant  hybridization techniques and breeding for desirable plant traits as a hobby is in my background.

They are all growing on North Padre Islands the in ground ones took 20F not a big test for you guys in the colder growing zones we don’t get cold enough to really test Mules here so for me this is a mute point. I don’t have a dog in this fight, I don’t need cold Hardy out of a Mule I just want that thicker leaflets and the fronds that twist more Butia style because I feel they look more Coconut-like than the plain-Jane Queen looking Mule.

[Dwarf Fan]

12 hours ago, RJ said:

Not really. You’re talking about “standard” mules. That’s just it, different parents are often used for the parents mule seed lots. They’re all mixed together by the thousands,  butia that’s most often used shows many different characteristics. I see some “standard” butia with very green boots when young. You really need to compare offspring from a very small operation. For example Moultrie mules. Frank uses (or used to) use pretty much one mother butia for his standard mules. His mules are very consistent. In fact the late Dr. Wilcox noted this many years ago when mules were the big craze. He said their mules were the most consistent for the very reason mentioned above. I have several from him and not one has green boots.

Not to disparage anyones hybrids, but I have noticed some “consistency” among Moulterie Mules (and Super Mules) and unfortunately my research says that Frank’s Mules, despite having incredible pedigree from the late Dr. Wilcox (RIP), may actually NOT be as Cold Hardy as Patrick Schafer’s Mule hybrids:

 

 

[Dwarf Fan]

For reference the only hybrids I got from Patric that didn’t have a ton of Burgundy was his BUTIA PARAGUAYENSIS X MONTY 

Which makes sense because it is 2/3 Queen (Butia Paraguayensis x Syagrus schizophylla/Syagrus romanzoffiana).

My final piece of evidence:

[DAVEinMB]

Ok I don't know how helpful these pics will be; it was pretty tough trying to get a good shot of the area of the petiole in question.  But I did make another observation that I didn't see before. All 4 mules that have brown boots and butia leaning foliage have a very long area of petiole that is bare before the leaflets start. I didn't measure it but in my 2 largest it appeared to be in the 5 foot range. The mule with green boots and plumose foliage has a much smaller bare petiole area in comparison - roughly two feet before leaflets begin. I don't know if this is because it's recovering from being trunk cut or if it is another appearance variable to throw into the mix. Anyways, on with the pics.

MULE #1 - GREEN BOOTS:

Foliage burned pretty badly. It also had spear pull and needed an extensive trunk cut. Siting is out in the open, nothing around it. 

MULE # 2 - BROWN BOOTS:

Minor to medium burn, bud rot but it pushed it out. I notice the boots on this one are a lighter brown, almost yellowish and tan in areas. Siting is fairly exposed but has some wind break from a large ligustrum japonica.

MULE # 3 - BROWN BOOTS:

This one also has lighter brown boots. Foliage showed almost no visible burn and spear wasn't compromised. Siting is pretty protected with wind break on almost all sides and some natural overhead canopy. 

MULE # 4 - BROWN BOOTS:

This mule has very dark boots. Foliage burn was minor but visible and the spear was intact. Siting is pretty exposed. 

MULE # 5 - BROWN BOOTS:

Aside from the shade of the boots, this mule's appearance, siting, and damage are right in line with #4.

[DAVEinMB]

Ok so I have a decent sized pindo and where the leaflets start on the petioles is a good distance up from the base. Is this something to keep in consideration or negligible? 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by DAVEinMB

[MarcusH]

12 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Ok so I have a decent sized pindo and where the leaflets start on the petioles is a good distance up from the base. Is this something to keep in consideration or negligible? 

 

Dave , thank you for providing us with so many pictures of your Mule palms . By the way I really like the looks of your yard very tropical looking.  You have quite a big collection of Mule palms. 

You're giving me exactly the information that I wanted to hear to support our theory and there you go. So from my understanding the more brown/burgundy the boots show, the less damage it took ,even it wasn't a huge difference . Am I right ? 

Interesting that you mentioned the length of boots.  I have noticed it but didn't include it in our theory.  Maybe it's something to look further into.  

By the way what was the lowest temperature you have seen and how long was the cold ? 

[DAVEinMB]

16 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Dave , thank you for providing us with so many pictures of your Mule palms . By the way I really like the looks of your yard very tropical looking.  You have quite a big collection of Mule palms. 

You're giving me exactly the information that I wanted to hear to support our theory and there you go. So from my understanding the more brown/burgundy the boots show, the less damage it took ,even it wasn't a huge difference . Am I right ? 

Interesting that you mentioned the length of boots.  I have noticed it but didn't include it in our theory.  Maybe it's something to look further into.  

By the way what was the lowest temperature you have seen and how long was the cold ? 

Thanks Marcus and no problem at all 🤙

As far as the boot color goes, yes the green showed heavy damage including spear pull whereas the browns were more or less just cosmetic. 

I'm gonna do some more digging and see if the length of bare petiole is an indicator of which direction the palm is leaning or not. There are plenty of butia in town that I can check but no queens so I'll have to rely on pictures for them. 

I'm not sure what the duration of cold was but my Acurite weather station recorded three consecutive nights at 13F, 13F, and 14F. This was consistent with all three sensors in my yard. 

[MarcusH]

9 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Thanks Marcus and no problem at all 🤙

As far as the boot color goes, yes the green showed heavy damage including spear pull whereas the browns were more or less just cosmetic. 

I'm gonna do some more digging and see if the length of bare petiole is an indicator of which direction the palm is leaning or not. There are plenty of butia in town that I can check but no queens so I'll have to rely on pictures for them. 

I'm not sure what the duration of cold was but my Acurite weather station recorded three consecutive nights at 13F, 13F, and 14F. This was consistent with all three sensors in my yard. 

We really opened a can of warms, Dave . We have to do more research but we have some really good evidence that proves David Casella's theory is right .  It would help a lot of us in colder climates who seek the most cold hardiness out of a Mule palm .  Your help is appreciated!!! Keep us up to date . 

[ChicagoPalma]

From my understanding, every cosmetic and genetic trait will show what palm is dominant in the hybrid.

Butia dominant Mule: Burgundy boots, curved fronds, thicker trunk, couple or more degrees hardier,  long petioles

Queen dominant Mule: Green boots, plumose fronds, skinnier trunk, (from the research) 15 degrees hardy or less hardier than that.

 

That data proves Marcus and Daves theory.

This same data can be applied to other hybrids, such as Butia X Monty, since its 2/3 queen, it is definitely going to be as hardy to less hardier than a queen dominant mule.

Triple cross hybrids are a different story.

To summarize everything, if you really want to know what mule is leaning to which palm, get a custom genetic test of the mule plant matter and look for the butia or queen genes, some specialized nurseries use this and the public can buy these genetic tests for a somewhat reasonable price.

[ChicagoPalma]

These people may be able to help you for genetic testing if you are interested: The first link is better since they have specified tests for hybrid purity and traits, or the finger print.

https://csplabs.com/genotyping-variety-identification-hybrid-purity/

https://agbiolab.net/plant-variety-testing.html

[Scott W]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:43 PM, coco305 said:

Is it true that mules do not fruit?

I watched a youtube people and people in thailand or some southeast asian country were able to take cuttings of palm fronds and make new saplings from them. Not sure if it was a fake video because I did not think you can do that with palms, but idk why they would make that as clickbait. 

Because the clickbait would only appeal to people in the palm community, most normal people would just be like "oh thats cool, you grew cuttings of a palm"

I was always under the impression Mules typically do not set fruit at all because of sterility issues, hence the term mule.  I know the mature mule I had in my old house would flower but the females would never develop, they just shriveled up and dropped.

I've heard occasionally those female flowers do move on to the fruiting stage but once mature it does not germinate. 

And you are correct, I've never seen a palm frond take root.  I did however recently see someone post pics of rooted cycads fronds.

[Tom in Tucson]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:39 AM, Scott W said:

I was always under the impression Mules typically do not set fruit at all because of sterility issues, hence the term mule.  I know the mature mule I had in my old house would flower but the females would never develop, they just shriveled up and dropped.

I've heard occasionally those female flowers do move on to the fruiting stage but once mature it does not germinate. 

And you are correct, I've never seen a palm frond take root.  I did however recently see someone post pics of rooted cycads fronds.

Could you post a link to those rooted fronds?

Hi 55°, Lo 46° Dec 23 .05"

[Scott W]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:58 AM, Tom in Tucson said:

Could you post a link to those rooted fronds?

Hi 55°, Lo 46° Dec 23 .05"

Posted recently on one of the FB cycad groups.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/315213375270185/permalink/5872818832842917/?mibextid=Nif5oz

[Tom in Tucson]

On 12/25/2023 at 3:45 PM, Scott W said:

Posted recently on one of the FB cycad groups.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/315213375270185/permalink/5872818832842917/?mibextid=Nif5oz

Wow, I had no idea that this was possible. From the link, it appears to take a couple years, and may not sprout without some caudex attached (at least with Zamia). I will look into this.

Hi 60°, Lo 34°

[Fusca]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:51 PM, Tom in Tucson said:

Wow, I had no idea that this was possible. From the link, it appears to take a couple years, and may not sprout without some caudex attached (at least with Zamia). I will look into this.

Hi 60°, Lo 34°

Those "fronds" weren't rooted but rather offsets (pups).  I'm currently trying to root an offset with its own caudex from my Dioon spinulosum.