Japanese blueberry shade tree

[flplantguy]

What do people know about the growth rate and shade capabilities/frost protection of a Japanese blueberry tree? I'm considering planting a bunch as both shade and windbreak hedges but have seen conflicting growth rates and mature sizes.  The big one in leu gardens is the perfect size but how long did that take?  Which use is best and easiest to maintain? I have seen hedges too but I think they need a ton of trimming.  Depending on the rates and sizes in a general yard (and not a botanical garden) that will decide where I put them, as shade trees in gaps in the forest, or as a west wall to block the harsher parts of the yard from sun and wind.

[Silas_Sancona]

6 hours ago, flplantguy said:

What do people know about the growth rate and shade capabilities/frost protection of a Japanese blueberry tree? I'm considering planting a bunch as both shade and windbreak hedges but have seen conflicting growth rates and mature sizes.  The big one in leu gardens is the perfect size but how long did that take?  Which use is best and easiest to maintain? I have seen hedges too but I think they need a ton of trimming.  Depending on the rates and sizes in a general yard (and not a botanical garden) that will decide where I put them, as shade trees in gaps in the forest, or as a west wall to block the harsher parts of the yard from sun and wind.

Not sure i'd waste a lot of $$ on planting a whole bunch of these honestly...  I'd see them around occasionally,  but none looked all that great.  Most always looked thin and really yellow,  at least close to the coast.  Further inland / up north / where soil pH is lower might be a different story though.

These were promoted as a " fad " tree option in CA also but again, most i'd see around San Jose were thin and " tired " looking..  Looking at online images of nice, full looking specimens, ..can't recall ever seeing any that looked that nice myself.


From what i remember, they were a slow to moderate- speed grower.  9a-10 is what i recall as far as hardiness was concerned.

For what you're looking to do, i'd look into something like Walter's Viburnum ( not the dwarf ) or one of the Sideroxylon  for a wind break-type " hedge " or smaller, dense-leaved " fill in some gaps "  tree, esp if occasionally trimmed.

Just my experience w/ these.. Other people may have had better experiences w/ them.

 

[Calosphace]

We have lots of these at work in various roles but the canopy is naturally sparse and it is difficult to get a dense plant and they can't simply be trained to be that way in my experience (have to really like that particular spot maybe).

They do fulfill a role I call "living shadecloth" aka sparse, usually evergreen trees perfect for planting a variety of others beneath. That is how we use them most effectively at work. I wouldn't plant one personally because Pineapple guava is of same stature is much more useful and is less hit-or-miss in terms of looking like a good plant but one of our roles of them looks quite nice. I'd say try one out but as a specimen small tree in a border with broms under

Also in FL they should not be getting all day sun exposure if you want the foliage looking good (nice dark green).

Honestly I think a podocarpus is more of what you want, is tougher, and has similar texture/color. Would look great with Silver saw palmetto
In my personal garden the north fence is covered in Carolina jessamine and it works great as it grows quite thick and doesn't spread as bad as the false asian "jasmine" vine. I also use Illicium parviflorum (smallflower star anise) but that is highly dependent on your soil type/moisture level. it is a native of our swamps and does best in a moist to average soil (esp if its a low water table it can reach)

to mitigate west sun off top of head--> exotic: winter cassia trained as a multitrunk small tree, bottlebrush
natives: deciduous Toothache tree (very cool looking trunk, produces peppercorns),  evergreen Little Gem Magnolia, simpson's stopper, Sand live oak is the best but it's eventually a big one as you know lol
if there's a native Ulmnus in your county elms have great delicate canopies and can grow in full exposure unlike most thin-leaf deciduous trees i have Ulmnus americana var florida at home and at work we have a lot of Winged elms and they're really cool. Ulmnus parviflora is very invasive at work and imo should be moved to a prohibited list in the state soon

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calosphace

[Calosphace]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not sure i'd waste a lot of $$ on planting a whole bunch of these honestly...  I'd see them around occasionally,  but none looked all that great.  Most always looked thin and really yellow,  at least close to the coast.  Further inland / up north / where soil pH is lower might be a different story though.

These were promoted as a " fad " tree option in CA also but again, most i'd see around San Jose were thin and " tired " looking..  Looking at online images of nice, full looking specimens, ..can't recall ever seeing any that looked that nice myself.


From what i remember, they were a slow to moderate- speed grower.  9a-10 is what i recall as far as hardiness was concerned.

For what you're looking to do, i'd look into something like Walter's Viburnum ( not the dwarf ) or one of the Sideroxylon  for a wind break-type " hedge " or smaller, dense-leaved " fill in some gaps "  tree, esp if occasionally trimmed.

Just my experience w/ these.. Other people may have had better experiences w/ them.

 

Exactly same experience here. Will add that Sideroxylon tenax is a native species here and one of my absolute favorites and it is a crime that it is not available commercially considering it grows in a huge variety of habitats including straight up white sugar sand, is a small evergreen tree, and has metallic copper undersides. It'd be the perfect candidate for west-facing hell strips and the like. i first saw some at Lyonia preserve (free to enter public libary nature trail outside of Orlando) and have been trying to source one ever since

[flplantguy]

They do well in the area where I see them (full sun actually) and dappled light under is good for some spots in the yard.  I don't want a dense shade like under a mango tree, more like 60% or so there.  My soils are ideal citrus soil, acid sands so if they can handle that they will be happy.  If they aren't a good screen then they can be the canopy elsewhere.  The west side will have layers too so they can be a part of the whole thing. Buffers are better that way with layered plantings and I have just enough space there to do it that way.  Those, sabals in a row next to them, and some type of lower hedge like viburnum as the roadside wall.  Maybe a taller grass also if space allows.

[flplantguy]

44 minutes ago, Calosphace said:

Exactly same experience here. Will add that Sideroxylon tenax is a native species here and one of my absolute favorites and it is a crime that it is not available commercially considering it grows in a huge variety of habitats including straight up white sugar sand, is a small evergreen tree, and has metallic copper undersides. It'd be the perfect candidate for west-facing hell strips and the like. i first saw some at Lyonia preserve (free to enter public libary nature trail outside of Orlando) and have been trying to source one ever since

If you find one I am also looking for it and can't find it.  They are amazing and I also wonder why they are not sold frequently.  Makes no sense unless there is some issue with reproduction.

[Calosphace]

Oh I see I wasnt sure where Hudson is, didn't realize you were so south mango is a relevant tree for you! I'm not versed in south FL i do think they arent good screen plants as even our attractive specimens definitely are sparser in habit than most evergreens but the situation you describe they would certainly work

you probably have heard of Jamaican caper? im growing it as a very marginal plant so i have it under evergreen shade to protect but it has been surprisingly dense despite that.  another shade plant is Ardisia escallonioide/Marlbery. for sun we have a bunch of Ilex cassine (range extends into everglades) growing decent in a parking lot that has killed yuccas so those are tough for all day sun and of course would be good winter wind break

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Calosphace said:

Exactly same experience here. Will add that Sideroxylon tenax is a native species here and one of my absolute favorites and it is a crime that it is not available commercially considering it grows in a huge variety of habitats including straight up white sugar sand, is a small evergreen tree, and has metallic copper undersides. It'd be the perfect candidate for west-facing hell strips and the like. i first saw some at Lyonia preserve (free to enter public libary nature trail outside of Orlando) and have been trying to source one ever since

It's a great plant.. Even stands up to our extreme heat / dry air ( as long as i keep it watered at that time, lol ) and my personal neglect.  I actually had two specimens labeled as S. tenax but accidentally killed the larger-leaved of the two, which also had really nice copper coloring on the abaxial side of the leaves..   The remaining one has yet to flower though ..not sure why.

Saffron Plum, S. celastrinum is another great Sideroxylon sp.  I did loose my pair last year but they grew and flowered ( late fall / early winter here ) well.. As you may already know, flower fragrance is incredible and strong.  I could easily pick out plants in flower simply by following the scent when roaming around preserve areas near where i lived in Bradenton.  Bees / Butterflies love it.. GREAT plant ( when bigger ) for attaching Tillandsias / some Orchids to . Would be where i'd find Encyclia tampensis  growing on  in the same preserve areas near the river in Bradenton


 

54 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

If you find one I am also looking for it and can't find it.  They are amazing and I also wonder why they are not sold frequently.  Makes no sense unless there is some issue with reproduction.

Can't speak for S. tenax, but  i have tried seed off Saffron Plum and didn't have success w/ them ..Very likely my failed attempt was my fault, lol..   Imagine you should be able to find / try fresh seed easily on a hike somewhere where both sps occur.


As far as sources for plants,  @Calosphace as well,  if / when visiting the area  ..Sweet Bay Nursery is great if you're up to a nice drive down to Parrish on a day they're open. 

Unless ownership has changed, the guy i talked with when rounding up some stuff before leaving FL. was really helpful / a wealth of knowledge.  You can call to see if something is in stock / or isn't listed on their "current inventory " list too before driving down.  Florida Native Plants Nursery, in Sarasota,  was another place i'd visited and enjoyed exploring.. More out towards Myakka, than  in- town though.

As mentioned elsewhere, ..unless they aren't in business anymore ( been several years since i left ) there were at least a couple native plant nurseries up your way / north side of Tampa?? i think ??  who were usually at the USF spring sales / Greenthumb Fest in St. Pete.  Always brought some neat stuff.   Really hope they're still around.

Agree, ..among other tougher / fairly attractive FL. native stuff i have discussed before, i never understood why the Sideroxylons weren't used much ore widely in " more traditional " landscape applications.  As mentioned above, a really coppery colored, bigger leaved S. tenax  specimen i had was quite an eye catcher.

[flplantguy]

I'm going to be looking into the native preserve areas like aripeka preserve nearby for native stuff.  Cuttings or seeds of certain things that will fit the bill too.  Mango is barely doable here it tends to get some freeze damage some years, it was more an example tree but it does grow and fruit most years.

[Calosphace]

Hope I didn't come across as too negative lol I skew native species meaning I use both exotics and natives but if a native plant can perform the same role in the garden I will generally use that instead. E.g. if I need a non-descript hardy small evergreen shrub I'd go for dwarf inkberry and never a boxwood. I find everyone using the same plants from all over the globe creates a liminal space effect like an airport but by using a large proportion of local native species and a curation of your favorite exotics it gives the garden a distinct sense of place and character.

I say it is still worth trying out as a specimen if you like the look, they really are not that large and I've yet to see them suffer cold damage or reseed at work despite having dozens of them in various places

but yeah looking around sounds like a great idea. that's how i settled on many of my plants. so many requite in-person viewing to really appreciate and get an idea of actual form

and @Silas_Sancona i really need to check out the sweet bay nursery then thank you! Green Isle Gardens has listed them on their website but I'm not sure they do retail and/or even produce them still

Edited October 11, 2023 by Calosphace

[Silas_Sancona]

18 hours ago, Calosphace said:

Hope I didn't come across as too negative lol I skew native species meaning I use both exotics and natives but if a native plant can perform the same role in the garden I will generally use that instead. E.g. if I need a non-descript hardy small evergreen shrub I'd go for dwarf inkberry and never a boxwood. I find everyone using the same plants from all over the globe creates a liminal space effect like an airport but by using a large proportion of local native species and a curation of your favorite exotics it gives the garden a distinct sense of place and character.

I say it is still worth trying out as a specimen if you like the look, they really are not that large and I've yet to see them suffer cold damage or reseed at work despite having dozens of them in various places

but yeah looking around sounds like a great idea. that's how i settled on many of my plants. so many requite in-person viewing to really appreciate and get an idea of actual form

and @Silas_Sancona i really need to check out the sweet bay nursery then thank you! Green Isle Gardens has listed them on their website but I'm not sure they do retail and/or even produce them still

I saw that when looking at G. I. G..'s list..  " ...from 2021 "  would have me questioning whether or not they're still stocking them too..  Sounds like they don't regularly update as much as they should, imo..   Can always e-mail or call i guess ..though regularly updating availability lists shows your audience you're " on the ball " so to say..

That's one thing i always liked about Sweet bay.. Sure it's wise to contact them ..or any nursery really.. before visiting, esp. if not local, but looking for specific things  ...but,  at least their availability list is updated often enough that anyone can see what is likely to be in stock ..and know what each size available might cost. 

As mentioned, unless someone other than who i'd talked with is running the ship now,  i really enjoyed my visit there.. Wish i'd found them sooner, ..or that they were closer / could ship starter-sized material or seed ( Need a couple more Marlberry,   to replace the  J- Caper / Sideroxylon specimens i lost,  ..and a few other things )  but, i'm glad they're still in business..  It was actually a forward thinking Landscaper who would stop in to pick up basic material from where i'd worked while i lived in Bradenton who mentioned them to me..   Being located where they are, you can find stuff from up north,  and some of the more subtropical things from the southern part of the state to try outside S. FL.

Anyway,  Definitely a place anyone there interested in exploring native options for their landscape should consider checking out. 

  Agree on this idea too.. Seeing plants in a nursery is one thing,  seeing older/ more mature specimens in say a Botanical Garden / a variety of landscape applications,  ..or, more importantly - as it relates to native stuff at least-  out in the wild is another important piece of the puzzle when evaluating particular plant options that catch your attention. What garners an " Ooh, that's neat " response when viewed in pictures,  might  ..or might not.. garner the same response when seen growing out in the sticks.