Arborist's advice and applying Palm fertilizer to Queen Palms

[Ben F.]

Hi all, I decided to create secondary topic based on my first questions (included link below). So, I'm located in Fallbrook, California, (it's a mild climate, 30 minutes from the coast) and I've bought this Palm Fertilizer 14-4-9, however I'm not sure how to interpret the amount to use, I've gotten different advice from different people. It's for 12 mature Queen palms, average around 25 feet high, a few maybe 30 ft+, The fronds are green on top, some a little raggedy, bottom ones a little more yellowing than what I'd see on other palms. Conclusion has been they are looking somewhat anemic and slightly stressed, they need fertilizing. I'm new to the property so I do not know the maintenance history. Questions are as follows... 

1) is 3-4 pounds of this per tree about right? An arborist said I could use the whole bag on the lot of 12, so that's be like.. 4 pounds per tree, spread starting a few few out from trunk. He said I'm not going to hurt the tree if I have some extra fertilizer there. 

2) Ok to fertilize 4x a year? So that means next fertilizing would be in January. 

3) Arborist quoted me $2,000 to prune the old dead fronds off, and clean up the trees a little... but I asked about the yellowing ones, he said.. yeah I'd prune those too, leaving like 5-6 top level fronds - but, others have said DON'T prune those yellowing fronds, the tree is getting nutrients from them until they are 100% gone - so I'm wondering - who's right? I've got a 20 foot reach pole saw, why not just prune the dead fronds myself? Seems like a lot of money to spend, unless there is some kind of special technique?

 

Thanks, I've had some really helpful advice here on the forums so far! 

 

 

 

[aabell]

I'm not in California and I'm far from an expert but I'll chime in with my best advice:

Fertilizer plan seems fine, always best to follow the the application instructions on the bag, although that doesn't necessarily seem clear here. 

 As far as pruning, definitely don't pay $2000 for it, just cut the dead fronds off yourself. No special technique, unless it's a spiny palm like a Phoenix or something which can be dangerous. Yellow leaves are indeed still contributing to the growth of the plant, and should not be cut off. Palms are often over-pruned, mainly to delay the next pruning as long as possible. For aesthetics and the health of the plant, take off only the brown dead leaves.

Edited October 16, 2023 by aabell

[Ben F.]

@aabell I confirmed with the store where I bought where they sell fertilizer, seems like 3 pounds per tree is about right. I don't have any palm trees like you said, just Queen.. so i'll just cut em off and save myself some money. I know some people say to disinfect a pruning blade between cuts when it comes to other types of trees, but is that also necessary with queen palms? I've never owned any type of palm tree before, so it's all new for me. 

[aabell]

26 minutes ago, Ben F. said:

@aabell I confirmed with the store where I bought where they sell fertilizer, seems like 3 pounds per tree is about right. I don't have any palm trees like you said, just Queen.. so i'll just cut em off and save myself some money. I know some people say to disinfect a pruning blade between cuts when it comes to other types of trees, but is that also necessary with queen palms? I've never owned any type of palm tree before, so it's all new for me. 

Disinfecting your blade or shears when moving between plants is best gardening practice, and yes this does apply to palms as well so it can't hurt. However if you're only cutting off withered dead leaves, there would theoretically be a fairly low risk of transferring diseases via sap in that case.   

[Almisa]

9 hours ago, Ben F. said:

@aabell I confirmed with the store where I bought where they sell fertilizer, seems like 3 pounds per tree is about right. I don't have any palm trees like you said, just Queen.. so i'll just cut em off and save myself some money. I know some people say to disinfect a pruning blade between cuts when it comes to other types of trees, but is that also necessary with queen palms? I've never owned any type of palm tree before, so it's all new for me. 

Ben F, another non-Californian here and certainly newer to palms than most on this forum.  I do know that Queens - Syagrus romanzoffiana,  are fairly easy versus some more sensitive species, and if you have inherited 12 30 foot-ish palms (that sound as though they are mature and in good shape) - they must be relatively healthy.  Lower yellowing fronds is normal (I am sure you will see others in your area) and I would agree with the advice to prune the worst or failing ones yourself.  Regarding the fertilizer, I would say to use what you have already purchased now, however, I have recently been using this University of Fla information as my guide: https://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/miamidadeco/2018/05/21/selecting-good-fertilizers-for-palms/

It would appear from this that what you purchased may not contain all of the slow release nutrients needed for long term health.  So anyway - perhaps for next time (yes, every 3 - 4 months is best). Hope this is helpful. 

[Ben F.]

36 minutes ago, Almisa said:

Ben F, another non-Californian here and certainly newer to palms than most on this forum.  I do know that Queens - Syagrus romanzoffiana,  are fairly easy versus some more sensitive species, and if you have inherited 12 30 foot-ish palms (that sound as though they are mature and in good shape) - they must be relatively healthy.  Lower yellowing fronds is normal (I am sure you will see others in your area) and I would agree with the advice to prune the worst or failing ones yourself.  Regarding the fertilizer, I would say to use what you have already purchased now, however, I have recently been using this University of Fla information as my guide: https://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/miamidadeco/2018/05/21/selecting-good-fertilizers-for-palms/

It would appear from this that what you purchased may not contain all of the slow release nutrients needed for long term health.  So anyway - perhaps for next time (yes, every 3 - 4 months is best). Hope this is helpful. 

@Almisa thanks for that info..that’s interesting to read up there. I took a photo of 3 different fertilizers from the local garden and feed stores, all of them have the the potash(k) as water soluble, no slow release of P or K. So how does this fertilizer I’m using stack up I wonder? I can’t totally 100% tell, it does have slow release of N, and it looks like there are two sucrates, but the rest aren’t. I don’t really think the other 2 fertilizers I could have bought were better based on this and what their labels are. I’m wondering if I should scoop up some of this fertilizer I distributed today and get something else? I would think it’s ok since the local garden/feed guy recommended it who handles the fertilizer stock, and the arborist looked at it, so there wasn’t a “don’t use it”.. but I’ll admit I’m a bit nervous after reading that article. 

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, Ben F. said:

@Almisa thanks for that info..that’s interesting to read up there. I took a photo of 3 different fertilizers from the local garden and feed stores, all of them have the the potash(k) as water soluble, no slow release of P or K. So how does this fertilizer I’m using stack up I wonder? I can’t totally 100% tell, it does have slow release of N, and it looks like there are two sucrates, but the rest aren’t. I don’t really think the other 2 fertilizers I could have bought were better based on this and what their labels are. I’m wondering if I should scoop up some of this fertilizer I distributed today and get something else? I would think it’s ok since the local garden/feed guy recommended it who handles the fertilizer stock, and the arborist looked at it, so there wasn’t a “don’t use it”.. but I’ll admit I’m a bit nervous after reading that article. 

 For a good, slow / slow-er Potassium ( K) source, look into organic sources like Langbeinite ..and / or Greensand. Being a hard, crystal ..that kind of resembles large grains of rock salt or granite, it slowly breaks down, releasing a pulse of K ( ..and trace elements like Sulfur and Magnesium ) as it is wet, unlike many synthetic sources of K that will release pretty quickly. 

Of the " main 3 " macro - nutrients, K is released / broken down the fastest..  ..so you want to use a K source that will take more time being released, rather than it being the first thing that is dispersed through the soil each time you apply fertilizer.


..I may ( or had forgotten, lol ) to mention it, but, ..while you shouldn't have to worry about the queens,  if you have anything else sensitive that can get nipped during any serious cold spells during the winter, you might only apply a slow release K source ..and some minors.. in the fall, rather than a full - spectrum fert ( ..that also contains N and Phosphorus ) Nitrogen will promote tender growth, even if at a much slowed down pace in the winter..

...On that note, with Phosphorus ..you don't want to over do it since too much will sterilize your soil ( of beneficial bacteria / fungi, etc )   ..and cause other nutrient - uptake issues. Too much of it in the soil can  ..Generally speaking, Phos. moves about 1/4" through the soil ( from the surface, to and below where the roots are ) ..So,  i myself recommend keeping the %' of it low.. The fertilizer you have looks like it has the right amount of that component..

Not sure what your soil is like, but, if it has any clay content, the clay will hold on to some nutrients a bit longer than if you had a deep layer of sand.  If your part of Fallbrook sits on an area of decomposed Granite, that too will provide a slow release source of mineral elements for the Queens -and anything else in your landscape.  Volcanic - type rocks, like Granite, are often a good source of K ..among some other trace elements that are slowly released into the surrounding soil.

Keep in mind that during the cooler months, when plant growth is greatly slowed down ( ..or stops, in some cases - not Queens though ) lower soil temps at that time means they won't be taking up much in the way of nutrients ..so a late fall / winter feeding may not do too much,  ..unless it is warm of course.  Cooler and wet, like last year, i myself would probably skip feeding at that time.

..As far as pruning advise? ..advise shared by others is exactly what i'd suggest, ...so not necessary to add my 2 cents..  Definitely not necessary to waste $2000.  to keep them pruned. Don't have to be concerned that someone else pruning them isn't being careful about keeping their equipment sanitized either.. 

[SeanK]

Not sure where Fallbrook falls; is it 9b/10a? Then likely you can fertilize all year but cut winter dose in half. If your area was colder, I would say to stop Nitrogen after Labor Day.

P, K, and micros are OK all year.

[Ben F.]

6 hours ago, SeanK said:

Not sure where Fallbrook falls; is it 9b/10a? Then likely you can fertilize all year but cut winter dose in half. If your area was colder, I would say to stop Nitrogen after Labor Day.

P, K, and micros are OK all year.

@SeanK yep, right between 9b/10a - Ok, so cut winter dose in half.  Feed store Manager who handles fertilizer said to wait 60 days and see if palms have improved some, a little more green.. if not then fertilize again, but.. it sounds like maybe not, or if I do just do half dose cause it would be in mid December.
 

In any case it sounds like maybe I should try a different fertilizer with more controlled release all around, rather than just in the N.  Hmm, I didn’t realize palm fertilizer could be so varied, I thought what I had was the right stuff. Anyone have any suggestions for other palm fertilizer? I did see that Palm Plus was available in a different local store - but.. is that even good? https://partners.simplot.com/product/Palm-Plus-1358-with-GALXeONE

[SeanK]

6 minutes ago, Ben F. said:

@SeanK yep, right between 9b/10a - Ok, so cut winter dose in half.  Feed store Manager who handles fertilizer said to wait 60 days and see if palms have improved some, a little more green.. if not then fertilize again, but.. it sounds like maybe not, or if I do just do half dose cause it would be in mid December.
 

In any case it sounds like maybe I should try a different fertilizer with more controlled release all around, rather than just in the N.  Hmm, I didn’t realize palm fertilizer could be so varied, I thought what I had was the right stuff. Anyone have any suggestions for other palm fertilizer? I did see that Palm Plus was available in a different local store - but.. is that even good? https://partners.simplot.com/product/Palm-Plus-1358-with-GALXeONE

Be patient. Even in z10, growth will slow down over winter and nutrient uptake will be reduced.

[Almisa]

On 10/17/2023 at 3:45 PM, Ben F. said:

@SeanK yep, right between 9b/10a - Ok, so cut winter dose in half.  Feed store Manager who handles fertilizer said to wait 60 days and see if palms have improved some, a little more green.. if not then fertilize again, but.. it sounds like maybe not, or if I do just do half dose cause it would be in mid December.
 

In any case it sounds like maybe I should try a different fertilizer with more controlled release all around, rather than just in the N.  Hmm, I didn’t realize palm fertilizer could be so varied, I thought what I had was the right stuff. Anyone have any suggestions for other palm fertilizer? I did see that Palm Plus was available in a different local store - but.. is that even good? https://partners.simplot.com/product/Palm-Plus-1358-with-GALXeONE

https://store.palmtreesaver.com/Default.asp
I’m going to try this for my fall feeding and see how the spring goes. It appears to meet what is called for in that article - for Florida,anyway. I will also continue to use Iron Chelate nutritional supplement on many of my palms - great stuff 

[Merlyn]

I saw the link to the UFAS blog, but thought I would mention that they say 1.5lb of 8-2-12 per 100sqft of canopy.  Since your nitrogen is almost twice that, I would do something like 0.8lb of 14-4-9 per 100sqft per palm, 4x per year.  A 15ft canopy diameter is 7.5x7.5x3.1415 = 176sqft, so 1.76 x 0.8 = 1.4lb per palm.  If the crown diameter is a little bigger or smaller you can calculate it out.  But 4lb per palm is probably excessive.  Just spinkle randomly under thecanopy area, and don't chuck big handfuls at the trunk.  

[Ben F.]

@Almisa @Merlyn I’ll try that recommended fertilizer in the link next.. looking like early January will be 3 months since I fertilized them. I might have overdone the fertilizer I used.. but I’m a bit bewildered on the advice I got. The person who manages the fertilizer at the store I bought it from said to use about 3 pounds of that 14-4-9 Loveland fertilizer per tree, I told him I have these 20 - 30 foot mature queen palms and that was his advice. I sprinkled it around the canopy area a few feet out from the trunks. Also the certified arborist I paid to come look at the lot and offer advice actually advised more fertilizer than that, like 4-5 pounds per tree! But I went with the store owners advice (also it was close to what I saw on the Palm Plus fertilizer which is similar (13-5-8) and it says 4+ cups on trees 10 feet and up. (5 cups of the Loveland is 3 pounds) 

https://techsheets.simplot.com/Best/7516750_PalmPlus_13-5-8 with Gal-Xe_12-30-2015_05-16-2016.pdf
 

So considering I put 3 pounds of fertilizer per tree, what next.. should I tamper down in the next feeding 3 months from now? Does the amount of fertilizer I used actually harm the tree in any way? I’m a bit uncertain of how to apply this stuff, just trying to follow advice from local people who use this type of product. 

 

[Merlyn]

@Ben F. the recommendations in the UFAS/IFAS were made specifically for the swamplands of Floriduh, so as they say, your mileage may vary.    The big risk here is that daily afternoon thunderstorms just wash away the fertilizer straight into the groundwater.  Doing small doses very frequently is a good idea here.  Putting down a big dose here is just wasting money and polluting the groundwater.  In CA you don't have that problem, so adding 3lb per palm is probably not an issue.  Adding "too much" is also a risk of burning roots if the nitrogen releases too fast.  Again, that's usually a problem with daily rain, but could happen if you have sprinklers too. 

Since you are in CA, the "ideal" ratio (the 8-2-12 vs 14-4-9) might be a bit different.  But, as @Silas_Sancona mentioned, you definitely want the Phosphorus fairly low and you can always add SulPoMag/KMag/Langbeinite or Greensand if you are seeing any signs of potassium or magnesium deficiencies.  From your photos in the other thread it looks like they mostly need Nitrogen, Potassium, and Magnesium.  There are some uniformly light green older fronds (Nitrogen deficiency) and some fronds with yellowed/browned leaf tips (Potassium and/or Magnesium).  I bought a 50lb bag of Langbeinite from Seven Springs Farm for $70 delivered.  I think the dosage is around 5-10lb per 1000sqft.  So for a single queen a reasonable dose is about a pound.  This would be a good additive in the spring if you are still seeing signs of Potassium or Magnesium deficiencies.  There's a good chance that your exising fertilizer dose will fix it.  

https://www.7springsfarm.com/products/kmag-or-sulpomag-granular-0-0-22-21s-11mg-50-lb-bag?utm_campaign=order-confirmation-email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=OrderlyEmails&utm_content=product

 

[Ben F.]

@Merlyn @Almisa @SeanK @Silas_Sancona

So I did a soil test with MySoil, here are the results. I picked about 4 different spots in the lawn away from the area (but somewhat near) where I applied the fertilizer. It does look like the Nitrogen is a bit low, with Phosphorus being quite high, and Potassium is super low, and PH is low. I have no idea how the area was fertilized (or if it was) before the summer. So It's looking like that 8-2-12 might be a good bet next time? Not sure if there is a specific brand. Also, not sure what to do with PH, or other micronutrients during the winter season. 

[Silas_Sancona]

36 minutes ago, Ben F. said:

@Merlyn @Almisa @SeanK @Silas_Sancona

So I did a soil test with MySoil, here are the results. I picked about 4 different spots in the lawn away from the area (but somewhat near) where I applied the fertilizer. It does look like the Nitrogen is a bit low, with Phosphorus being quite high, and Potassium is super low, and PH is low. I have no idea how the area was fertilized (or if it was) before the summer. So It's looking like that 8-2-12 might be a good bet next time? Not sure if there is a specific brand. Also, not sure what to do with PH, or other micronutrients during the winter season. 

Looking at those results, personally, i wouldn't add a teaspoon full more of Phosphorus to your soil -now or later- Keeping in mind how slowly Phosphorus moves through the soil,  there will still be plenty of it around in your soil next year.. No need for any more..   Stick with the " Some Nitrogen, NO Phosphorus, MORE  K " suggested recommendations..

  Langbeinite is your best, slow release K source option, hands down..  That said, ..wait until spring to start feeding.. For now, you don't necessarily need to provide a winter snack at all, even a dose of K..   Palms will be fine for the next 3 or 4 months sipping on what is already present in the soil. 

Aside from Iron and Boron,  your " Minors " look good to my eye.  Zinc and Copper are high but will come down  -if you don't add any more for -at least-  a few months.. What you don't want to do is add more and see those #'s go any higher.

Just my thoughts..

 

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, Ben F. said:

@Merlyn @Almisa @SeanK @Silas_Sancona

So I did a soil test with MySoil, here are the results. I picked about 4 different spots in the lawn away from the area (but somewhat near) where I applied the fertilizer. It does look like the Nitrogen is a bit low, with Phosphorus being quite high, and Potassium is super low, and PH is low. I have no idea how the area was fertilized (or if it was) before the summer. So It's looking like that 8-2-12 might be a good bet next time? Not sure if there is a specific brand. Also, not sure what to do with PH, or other micronutrients during the winter season. 

Wow. Learn a lot from the analysis.

[Merlyn]

@Ben F. I hadn't heard of MySoil before, looks like a great and inexpensive testing option!  As far as treatment goes...yup...what @Silas_Sancona said.  I'd definitely make sure your fertilizers have boron and iron.  I recall someone saying that both are heavily depleted by grass, so I wouldn't add extra of those.  Your existing Loveland has a lot of iron but no boron, so make sure the next bag has both.  PalmGain and Florikan are frequently recommended here. 

Personally I'd add some Langbeinite/SulPoMag/KMag now, as it is a very slow dissolving mineral source.  Temperatures are dropping to more or less 75/55 out there this week.  Most palms won't be actively growing, but the nutrients are still bioavailable down into soil temps in the 50s.  I'll be doing my last batch of fertilizer next weekend.

[Ben F.]

@Silas_Sancona @Merlyn @SeanK I can try some langbeinite, sounds like no except for anything besides that.. and that it could be beneficial since it’s slow moving. It looks like this is a good product https://downtoearthfertilizer.com/products/single-ingredients/langbeinite-0-0-22/#:~:text=Down To Earth's Langbeinite 0,%3A potassium%2C magnesium and sulfurs.

Most of my trees are between 10-12 inches diameter, so it’s recommending 1/2 to 1 pound per inch in diameter. That’s looking like 5 pounds of that stuff per tree on the lower side. Seems like a lot.. but I’ll give it a shot, unless you’d recommend something different. Thanks for your feedback, it’s been really helpful. 

[Merlyn]

@Ben F. I wouldn't follow their recommendations on Langbeinite.  A couple of handfuls broadly spread under the canopy area seems about right.  You can calculate it out based on "normal" fertilizer rates too. 

• UFL's recommendation is 1.5lb of 8-2-12 per 100sqft of canopy.  From my earlier post, a 15ft canopy diameter is 7.5x7.5x3.1415 = 176sqft, so 1.76 *1.5 = a total of about 2.6lb of 8-2-12.  Since the 12 is a percentage, that means you are putting down effectively 2.6 * 0.12 = 0.32lb of potassium per dose. 
• Langbeinite is 22% potassium (0-0-22).  To get an equivalent potassium dose to the 2.6lb of 8-2-12 you'd apply 0.32/0.22 = 1.5lb of Langbeinite per palm.  That's just a random ballpark guess, but since it's really slow dissolving it would probably be safe.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Ben F. said:

@Silas_Sancona @Merlyn @SeanK I can try some langbeinite, sounds like no except for anything besides that.. and that it could be beneficial since it’s slow moving. It looks like this is a good product https://downtoearthfertilizer.com/products/single-ingredients/langbeinite-0-0-22/#:~:text=Down To Earth's Langbeinite 0,%3A potassium%2C magnesium and sulfurs.

Most of my trees are between 10-12 inches diameter, so it’s recommending 1/2 to 1 pound per inch in diameter. That’s looking like 5 pounds of that stuff per tree on the lower side. Seems like a lot.. but I’ll give it a shot, unless you’d recommend something different. Thanks for your feedback, it’s been really helpful. 

My favorite brand.. Use this myself..

As far as how much to use?  5 Lbs per tree might be pushing it, i think.. but, keep in mind that K is the most quickly released nutrient of the " Big 3 ".   Anyway,  Being slow release, once applied, it will last a few months ( Unless you get like an 1" of rain, every day, through the entire winter.. Then the individual crystals might dissolve / release the contained K faster.

Keep in mind too that the feeder roots of your Queens ..and pretty much any other palms / woody trees extend far beyond directly below where the trunk goes into the ground, so ..for instance,  if your Queens are say 10-12' in height,  Feeder roots can be located ...approx 6 -10' ( possibly more ) out from the base of the trunk(s) ..and you want to apply a ring of whatever you apply to cover the entire root zone  ...so, even just doing that, you'd be applying at least a box of Langbeinite per tree.   You could use half a box of course, but, since your K #'s are on the lower side, your goal - now, or more optimally, in early spring, is to get it back into the " optimal " zone.  My neighbor's Lemon has a canopy that is approx 12' in dia.  and takes one box of Langbeinite to circle, just outside the drip line.

Depending on what other Non- palm " trees " are in your landscape, you might not need to feed them.. Fruit trees, whether " temperate " stuff like Apples or Peaches, ..or more subtropical things like Avocado, Mangoes, etc do like a regular application of K, esp. the subtropical stuff.  Subtropical flowering trees like Jacaranda, Orchid and Trumpet trees / bushes like any Hibiscus, Plumeria, Gingers / Banana / White ( ...and Orange Bird of Paradise ) are K Pigs as well.  Generally, Native flowering things like some.. but not a lot, though a slow release / high K like Langbeinite won't hurt them, if applied only once a year. .

Other trees, esp. if they're natives, you don't need to feed all that much -if at all.

I should add, since i recall you mentioning it in the past, when feeding everything,  toss a handful or two of Langbeinite round any Agave -or any other Succulent- type things you might have in your landscape too ..They'll love you for it..  With those plants,  you'll only need to apply K ..or any other fertilizer... 2x's / year ..at the very most.. 1x, every other year, = even better.

[Ben F.]

@Silas_Sancona @Merlyn Ok, great.. thanks for the advice, I would have put the Langbeinite a bit closer not knowing that, since the fertilizer i put down was 3-5 feet out from tree trunks. I guess I can put some of the Langbeinite further out where I didn’t put the fertilizer (where I got the soil test samples).. maybe that will offset it in those areas and reach those feeder roots. Perhaps I’ll put a smaller dose further out now, and then another dose in the spring. But if I do some 8-2-12 down a few months from now, would I really still need some Langbeinite then as well? This tree maintenance stuff feels likes it’s a science if it’s own.. I’m glad I got that soil test.